• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

L-Theanine: Is Suntheanine the best?

Say what you will, but I've taken 18 g L-Theanine in one dose and felt aaaaaabsolutely NOTHING!
Wow. L-Theanine is fairly subtle to me, but 18 g should have done something.

It is interesting you say that though; I've heard some reports of people taking massive doses like that also, and not feeling anything. Some people truly must be more sensitive to the Theanine than others I guess...?
 
Please be realistic, there is nothing that can help wean you off of those strong GABAergenics besides more benzos. This supplement however may have potential in helping a person stay clean in the post addiction phase where anxiety becomes quite crippling. Even if you were told it could help, would you really risk a seizure to try this out?

eh, I've risked more for a lot less, and if it were one of my last options...

there has to be something out there that is the suboxone version of a
benzo for this type of addiction. At least something being tested, no?
 
It was always in my knowledge that MAOIs potentiated stimulants in general. I just can't see how an MAOI would weaken the effects of these drugs...

*** N.B. After writing this I realised that this post becomes a bit of a biochemistry rant, and ends up seriously diverging from anything written by the OP temporarily. I apologise for this in advance - I get carried away with this type of stuff =D ***

...yes, sort of. But what you just said there is the generic ("Do not take if on MAOI of any kind as it may dramatically increase plasma concentrations...") widely-thought view. It's actually so much more complicated than that. Most MAOI's [d]do[/b] potentiate the effects of drugs like stimulants and mushrooms/acid because they prevent the breakdown of the drug or its metabolites in the CNS, which obviously can be dangerous physically (for things that one can OD on - e.g. coke), or dangerous mentally (for things like mushrooms; it could make 1g feel like 5g, which could be massively overwhelming for a first timer, or even an experienced user thinking they were taking a low dose). Actually, come to think of it, the latter can actually cause major physiological problems because those kind of drugs do increase blood pressure/cause vasoconstriction etc... which - if prolonged - could be a serious issue.

Anyway, I digress. Basically, there is a lot of difference between all these different types of drugs. When 'legal highs' say something like "DO NOT TAKE IF ON SSRI'S OR MAOI'S" it's usually just to give the most scope of caution to the users. I mean, we all know how many people out there think that just because something is 'legal' or 'herbal' it means it's safe. And then we see BZP/Mephedrone/GBL related death due to lack of knowledge or research. The different mechanisms of action are actually quite important between all these enzyme inhibiting drugs. For example, oral DPT can only be taken with an oral MAOI simultaneously or else it's broken down too fast. Same goes for supplements like PEA and l-Tyrosine (and, to some extent, l-Theanine) as these chemicals are broken down so fast within the brain, sometimes within about 0.5 seconds of them hitting your bloodstream. The point that I've been circumlocuting for the last two paragraphs (8)) is that - whilst the most common MAOI's will potentiate stimulants and the likes - the issue with Selegiline is slightly different because it's quite a unique MAO inhibitor.

Most prescribed anti-depressant drugs are non-specific MAO inhibitors. That is, they inhibit most - if not all - types of monoamine oxidase enzymes (these are pretty much what is responsible for moving around and modulating neurotransmitters in the brain). Seeing as most drugs (with the exception of most non-synthetic opiates, and GABAergic drugs...to an extent) practically rely on flooding the brain with either one of the aforementioned neurotransmitters, or in some way blocking their re-uptake, then it can be very dangerous taking certain courses of anti-depressants with Cocaine/Amphetamines/MDxx's etc.. as, if you have too much 'excess' serotonin and/or dopamine (to name two of the most commonly known ones) then it can cause hypertensive crisis, Serotonin Syndrome, tardive dyskinesia (to name a few) and, of course, death. Neurotransmitters are great when you're fucked on them, but not so great when you get fucked by them.

Deprenyl [Selegiline Hcl/Citrate] differs in the fact that it's an irreversible specific MAO-B inhibitor. This is a lot less "easy-going" than most other types (i.e. you don't have to be as careful with your diet or drug-intake). Extra-simplified, this basically means it partially stops the breakdown of dopamine in the brain, hence why people use it to treat Alzheimer's, Parkinsons and - if you're looking for the Nootropic value - to boost motivation and focus, as dopamine is heavily connected with these cognitive functions (being directly associated with the reward/pleasure centres of the brain). So, what happens is that, over time, you constantly have "extra" dopamine in your brain. This can lead to downregulation of the dopamine receptors: they are no longer as sensitive to dopamine molecules so after you stop taking it and you take drugs with high dopamine-receptor affinity (like Cocaine), your receptors don't 'notice' as much as you *technically* shouldn't get such a kick out of it. Obviously this can cause people to take more and *possibly* lead to overdose, but this is only in extreme conditions.

The problem with Selegiline - and what I was hoping someone with advance drug-chemistry knowledge could help me out with - is that, because it's classed as "irreversible" it can potentially take up to 40 days for MAO-B inhibition to return to normal, and possibly even longer for upregulation of dopamine receptors to occur (to return to their normal 'sensitivity'). I was just wondering if anyone had any definitive knowledge, or better yet, personal experience, with using Selegiline or a similar drug like Rasagiline and taking other drugs either, a) alongside it; or b) a few days after stopping treatment/self-medication?

I personally don't take anything like base or coke, but - when I have the availability - I take Adderall or Ritalin for a study aid. Both are almost structurally identical to the two street drugs on a molecular level so there's quite a bit of relevance there.

I know of the dangers to do with systolic blood-pressure when it comes to taking these two combined, but I take low enough doses for that to be a minor problem. Plus I have herbal antihypertensives to hand if things get really problematic. However, that's not my issue. What I'm more concerned about is the effectiveness if - say - Ritalin when taking Deprenyl...? I would usually only take 10-30mg oral/railed for study aid reasons; but if Deprenyl is going to cause severe enough downregulation of certain receptors then I don't want to end up taking 5x more Ritalin than normal, both due to economic reasons, and physiological complications...

Does anyone have any experience in this field? Perhaps even with regular MAOI's...? Any info is appreciated :)

The Monkey Mantra said:
Say what you will, but I've taken 18 g L-Theanine in one dose and felt aaaaaabsolutely NOTHING!

Hmm, that is pretty weird. 18g of L-Theanine is a LOT!! Are you sure it wasn't bunk stuff...?
Do GABAegric drugs like the less tranquilising Benzodiazepines (Clonazapem, Temazepam, Midazolam...) have any effect on you at all?? I ask because L-Theanine is clinically/scientifically proven to have such a wide spectrum of effects on the brain and CNS that, theoretically, if you genuinely feel 'absolutely nothing' from a dose that massive then you shouldn't respond to a whole range of other, commonly-prescribed drugs.

Have a look at this website. I would actually advise anyone interested in L-Theanine to read this anyway as it's very concise and has the bare bones of what you would want to know - http://web-us.com/l-theanine_anxiety_reducer.htm). To Copy&Paste the most interesting/relevant bit(s):

Physiological Effects
...this amino acid [L-theanine] actually acts antagonistically against the stimulatory effects of caffeine on the nervous system.

...research on human volunteers has demonstrated that L-theanine creates a sense of relaxation via at least two different mechanisms. First, this amino acid directly stimulates the production of alpha brain waves, creating a state of deep relaxation and mental alertness*

...second, L-theanine is involved in the formation of the inhibitory neurotransmitter, gamma amino butyric acid (GABA). GABA influences the levels of two other neurotransmitters, dopamine and serotonin, producing the key relaxation effect.

...can mitigate many of the harmful effects of stress [and subsequently be helpful in dealing with GAD and cases of acute social phobia] without L-theanine causing sedation in the process.

...L-theanine is most effective in the range of 50-200 mg, with the effect being felt within 30 minutes and lasting for 8-10 hours. Individuals with high stress levels may increase their dosage of L-theanine to at least 100 mg, with no more than 600 mg being taken in a six hour period.

...no known adverse reactions to L-theanine and no drug interactions.

...current ongoing research include the use of L-theanine as an alternative to Ritalin... high blood pressure... in sharpening mental acuity and concentration.


* Alpha brainwaves are the type generated in a sort of mild hypnagogic state, in the sense that you are alert but in an introspective and peaceful sort of way. You're in "alpha-mode" when you are meditating, listening to music you love, just before you go to bed etc.. not drowsiness or lethargy but more an intense immersive wakefulness; it's a relaxed and effortless alertness. When you're genuinely stress-free or totally comfortable somewhere or with someone you're probably in your alpha brainstate. This is why L-theanine is so versatile: you can take in excess of 500mg and be totally anxiety-free, or you can take slightly less and be in a relaxed yet motivated mood (hence why it's useful in a Nootropic Stack). I'm para-phrasing what is explained alot more articulately in the article and adding in a bit of subjectivism but this seems to be the general consensus

On a side note, this stuff goes amazingly well with other supplements or anxiolytic medicines. I'm prescribed Clonazepam (6mg a day) and have found that low doses of l-Theanine can really boost it's effects in terms of both duration and intensity. Not only that, but when I've been out of K-Pins I've taken a combination of L-Theanine, 5-HTP and L-Tyrosine (essentially, GABA:Serotonin:Dopamine - the ultimate long-lasting, all-round replacement) and it's worked FANTASTICALLY!

The Monkey Mantra: unless those 18g were fake then I really can't see how that's physically possible. I mean, that's a truly epic dose! I can understand an enzyme deficiency that may inhibit particular biochemical mechanisms, but that would also most likely mean you wouldn't respond to Benzos as well (unless you don't??) I suppose one thing it could've been was that you took it on a full stomach...? It's an amino acid so you're s'posed to take it on as empty a stomach as you can manage so there aren't as many competitive proteases to prevent metabolism. Never take amino acids with a high-protein content meal, or after exercise.

I would recommend trying it again (at a dose of ~500-750mg) and perhaps in combination with dopamine and serotonin and GABA precursors: 5-HTP, L-Tyrosine, NALT, L-Trytophan, DLPA, L-Phenylalanine, Phenibut, Picamilon etc... to see if that'll do anything.

EDIT - Sorry, mitragyna; I've managed to completely hi-jack your thread with a whole load of irrelevant crap (those first few paragraphs). Didn't mean to do that, I apologise. I'll probably start a new thread somewhere else asking about all that other stuff.

Just out of interest - what kind of dose will get you where you want; how long does it last; and do you split it over the course of the day?
 
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The problem with Selegiline - and what I was hoping someone with advance drug-chemistry knowledge could help me out with - is that, because it's classed as "irreversible" it can potentially take up to 40 days for MAO-B inhibition to return to normal, and possibly even longer for upregulation of dopamine receptors to occur (to return to their normal 'sensitivity'). I was just wondering if anyone had any definitive knowledge, or better yet, personal experience, with using Selegiline or a similar drug like Rasagiline and taking other drugs either, a) alongside it; or b) a few days after stopping treatment/self-medication?

For me, selegiline's effects fade away over several days of abstinence. After 2-3 days the effects are pretty much negligible and I slip into a hypo-dopaminergic state of lethargy and inactivity, which lasts up to several weeks.

When beginning selegiline, it took 2-6 days of 5mg to notice the dopamine boost. Often, selegiline's anxiogenic effects preceded dopaminergic elevation, and dominated over it.

I found dosing 15-20mg to be an effective way to commence treatment rapidly, which gave effects within a couple of hours. People say that 10mg+ crosses into the realms of unselective MAO-inhibition, but this only applies to sustained dosing at those levels. Taking 20mg at once is similar to taking 5mg for four days, due to the slow rate at which MAO is replenished.
 
For me, selegiline's effects fade away over several days of abstinence. After 2-3 days the effects are pretty much negligible and I slip into a hypo-dopaminergic state of lethargy and inactivity, which lasts up to several weeks.

When beginning selegiline, it took 2-6 days of 5mg to notice the dopamine boost. Often, selegiline's anxiogenic effects preceded dopaminergic elevation, and dominated over it.

I found dosing 15-20mg to be an effective way to commence treatment rapidly, which gave effects within a couple of hours. People say that 10mg+ crosses into the realms of unselective MAO-inhibition, but this only applies to sustained dosing at those levels. Taking 20mg at once is similar to taking 5mg for four days, due to the slow rate at which MAO is replenished.

Only 2-6 days at 5mg daily? Well that's reassuring, thanks :)

And yeah, sustained doses of <10mg will cause Selegiline's effect to go from selective MAO-B inhibition to non-specific MAO-A inhibition (the more dangerous of the two; the one where you basically can't eat cheese etc...) But you're right - this only happens with sustained use. I've been using 2.5mg daily now but I skipped a few days by accident so I don't know where I am in terms of effects. I mean, I know it has a long half-life, being an MAO inhibitor and all that, but I dunno how this might affect the cumulative effects.

I only had a sample amount as well which kind of sucks so I've only for 7.5mg to try out in total left. I'm gonna get some more because I can feel that, even though the stuff is not working for me now, it will work in the future if I "dedicate" myself to it.

I might take 2.5mg today and then tomorrow try 5mg at once to see what that does. I'm not expecting much, just maybe slightly more than with 2.5mg, especially if I throw in some DLPA (DL-Phenylalanine --> D-Phenylalanine & L-Phenylalanine --> L-Tyrosine --> Phenethylamine --> Endorphins -->L-DOPA --> Dopamine, Norepinephrine, Epinephrine)*

* this is not the direct mechanism, but close enough.

It's a shame that the downregulation of dopamine receptors will cause lethargy and un-motivation when I stop taking it, but I guess it's kind of mild seeing as the re-modulation of the monoamine oxidases and the dopamine receptors happen quite slowly as the MAO-B effects wear off. I can always fight that with L-Theanine as well as that'll help regulate mood and motivation via GABAergic systems.

Just out of interest, wreckhead: what do you take Selegiline for? And do you supplement it with any... supplements/vitamins/herbs in order to boost Dopamine even more or just by itself? Does it have much effect?

I think - when I get some more - I will take 5mg a day and see what happens. If nothing after a week then I will try a single dose of 20mg to see how that works out for motivation.

Cheers for the info :)
 
I'm still messed up a little from L-Theanine mixed with DXM. Made my afterglow kinda scary. Horrible combination.
Well this one mistake and now I get freaking anxious whenever I take DXM or Theanine. I felt like I was going to die last time I took DXM. My brain feels permanently fucked as well.
 
It was always in my knowledge that MAOIs potentiated stimulants in general. I just can't see how an MAOI would weaken the effects of these drugs...

yes but if your dopamine dopamine system effects are high for weeks on end you get used to this feeling (getting desensitised like when on ssri's) and also when you have low dopamine effects a dopaminergic stimulant like amphetamine is very noticable, if you have greater dopamine effects happening then the difference is less noticable as you are going from moderate effects to greater rather than low effects to greater. i would guess if you used neither Selegiline nor amphetamine for weeks then one day combined the two you would probably notice an increased effect compared to amphetamine alone.

combining the two is not recomended
 
I was hoping someone could please tell me more about selegiline and what i can and can't take with it. I am on a low dose so far of 2.5 mg twice daily and I wanted to know what I can combine it with, ie. phentermine? Or should I cut back to 1.25 mg twice daily? That's a quarter of a tablet so I don't know how I can go much lower than that.
 
Anyone used sulbutiamine its in slim extreme i think not sure,Or IBE x-force ?

so l-theanine is a vitamin b1 yes?
 
Having read the last 3 posts in haste, it seems like this thread has deviated... true? Or am I just being lazy and not reading the whole thing...? Of course I will when I have the time, but it seems we're on to the joys of Deprenyl now! ;)
 
What about GMA (gamma-Glutamylmethylamide) a.k.a. N-methyl-L-glutamine?

Is it more potent in general or just as a hypotensive?
 
IME l-theanine (unlike benzos) only produces effects when i am already feeling anxious, if i take theanine in the midst of a episode of strong anxiety it seems to provide moderate relief but if i just take it when im feeling relatively stable it has no real effect even after taking a gram.
 
yeah about the same for me, virtually no CNS effects but ive found it potentiates GABA B agonists to a profound degree....phenibut, gbl, ghb, and even baclofen, which feels suprisingly different than phenibut to me i that it is barely intoxicating, gets quite drunk feeling when combined with 600 mg of l-theanine
 
Some people don't feel a thing, but for some people it helps em' out tremendously. Personally, it relieves my anxiety greatly. I also notice an increase in concentration and focus. I always keep some chewable tabs on me just in case I need em'. Also, I always make sure to take it in the morning when I wake up. Kinda just gets me off to the right start for the day. A lot of people try to take a whole bottle to see if they can get a benzo feel. It's NOTHING like benzos IMO. I've never taken excess amounts though because I certainly don't find it recreational. I don't look for a "benzo" feel, because IMO it's very different. When used as needed though, it makes a very useful addition to my daily supplements.

This website contains tons of user reviews from people who use it for Chronic Fatigue, Anxiety, Depression, you name it.

EDIT: Here's a link to a post on Edot that people may find useful.

Great for anxiety.
Add a little Valarien for a boost.
 
Wondering if we will ever see L-theanine analogues (apart from gamma-Glutamylmethylamide).

Adding something here and there on the amines of glutamine might turn up to be a more interesting substance. With higher AMPA and NMDA properties porbably.

What do you guys think?
 
What about GMA (gamma-Glutamylmethylamide) a.k.a. N-methyl-L-glutamine?

Is it more potent in general or just as a hypotensive?

By some japanese study its reported to have higher hypotensive activity which I doubt is due to any DA/NA antagonist activity judging by the structure.

The full article (Hypotensive effect of γ-glutamylmethylamide in spontaneously hypertensive rats - Life Sciences
Volume 62, Issue 12, 13 February 1998, Pages 1065-1068
was for me quite impossible to find but I assume it has to do with different levels of activity on GABA and NMDA.
The Ki/IC50/nH profiles of L-theanine compared to L-glutamic acid can be found on the first papers I posted above.

This data somehow sheds a thin light on theanine SAR, encouraging research for research on possible theanine analogues that might prove to be more pharmacologically interesting. I found a few ones sold by some chemical companies on PubMed and ChemSpider (propyl, isopropyl and ethylamino) though almost no relevant pharmacological data on theese.


PS: I also found on the Wiki's NMDA antagonist entry a substance (AP5) that impressively resemmbles L-theanine and is in fact a NMDA competitive antagonist.
 
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L-theanine certainly is psychoactive. I haven't tried Suntheanine. The supplement i'm taking is called Lumina (Metagenics)

200mg L-theanine effectively kills my anxiety. It takes a few days to get used to the effects and function on it. I find myself forgetting and spacing out when i go above 200mg.. Interesting how it increases alpha activity. I've noticed that i'm much better equipped to deal with real-life situations and stress

600mg L-theanine + cannabis was a dissociative trip for me...... Amazing headspace and even some minor visuals that were pretty bizarre

Fascinating stuff really
 
600mg L-theanine + cannabis was a dissociative trip for me...... Amazing headspace and even some minor visuals that were pretty bizarre

Weird, maybe you have a sensitive reaction to it.

I take ~200mg of theanine probably on average, every other night. I never recall feeling much at all from it. I'm going to do some reading on it and possibly try a higher dose tonight to see if I feel any anxiolytic or sedative effect.
 
[journal] tea jouranal Because this thread is so necromanticised and insane to read :|
*cracks the proverbial knuckle

This thread seemed to cover my history with combining substances with theanine well.
I have had suntheanine before, and other commercially bottled theanine.

Actually when I this is when I first got into it, I didn’t really work well, or I was expecting more inebriation, while it was just providing the remarkable effect of relaxation without drowsiness.
I got into drinking Lots and LOTS of tea, perfecting the alembic furnace, sometimes boiling tea for many hours until it seemed like the tannins where removed! Other times still taking it overnight.

Commercial decaf came into the equation, which following the directions seemed like an in-between point in taste. Decaf steeped overnight, in cold was the most delicious yet it seemed where I was consuming scores and scores of bags in a day...

Later I got into when to poly drugging with amphetamines like the OP brang up. I got into d, amphetamine and vyvanse abuse where Id rely a lot on drinking it, wither antioxidants and LThea made it not stressing, I had really was habitually drinking it as an escape in my life, prior and now it seemed to curve other drug abuse.

Only before this I had been drinking it with Poppies occasionally, but then it seemed to only be part of the comfort of the nod, & not as much as an elixir to go further on amphetamine.

I definitely found it more rewarding then coca tea when using amp because coca actually seemed as a stronger diuretic and brought me down back to baseline quicker. About a half year later after getting into dark coffee to quit the amp, decaf to quit that, then sober.

I got back into decaf, tea happily, but I knew that there where precautions as to the solvents used, so I got into water decaffeinated black, & green decaf.

I was at a point where I got to drinking delicate green decaffeinated, AT THIS point it was ALL about flavor, I COULDNT HELP BUT TASTE IT
AND EXCLAIM ABOUT THE FLAVOUR, I began adding lemon a lot, and truely the green brewing prior was like bighting into a lemon, in a different way though. IT. JUST. TASTED. SO. FUCKING. GOOD.
I’m a student now, so I cannot easily afford this and *bucks stopped letting me exploit their thing of single bags for 35 cents, without a cup or refill so I stopped so much. I got into the tea ceremony of Japan or how to serve it with food, heavy tea and a light tea with a full meal and light tea with a snack(I actually was following this for a while) heavy black having more theanine, green having GMA, and antioxidants.

<3 Right now im on some lipton green*, which is heavy but green, I don’t follow the brewing preparation because it seemed to bring out the heaviness. Low temp means more antioxidants.
-- --
EDIT2: *water decaffeinated. I really have began to get a visual stimulation & addiction from the brewing itself becuase this stuff is so heavy.
**white seemed to be a very variable, and sweet tea, when I would brew it it seemed to never be one thing; sometimes sweet, neutral, other times leaving the delicious, delicate green flavour in my mouth for a long time.
Oolong seemed to be very flavorful but mild, alot wouldnt be different than a little, but it needed to be handled with care as it would very easily infuse the brew with tanin.
 
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