clonazepom WD's.. experienced

[gomakemeasandwich]

omg...whoever said withdrawals from a 2-4 week 3 mg/day clonazepam habit can kill someone is utterly delusional.

I have binged on far far more dangerous benzos (temazepam, alprazolam, and triazolam - all of which are short acting and are known to cause more serious addictions) for longer periods of time and never died getting off any of 'em.

seriously dude, find me one case of someone dying from klonopin withdrawals after 2-4 weeks. unheard of! In fact, try to find me a single case where this has happened with clonazepam...there are only a VERY VERY few benzos which have been documented to cause death during withdrawals (i know temazepam is one, and nitrazepam is another and alprazolam, triazolam and flutoprazepam).
FIVE benzos have only been documented to have caused death during withdrawals. In two of them (alprazolam and flutoprazepam), only 1 death for each has been documented! In the others, only a handful for each. Thats not all that many, considering the addiction rates for some of them.

The OP said that he had been on Klonopin for four months, and other benzodiazepines for a year:

and to answer your question Ive been on this for maybe 4 months, before that oxazepam for short time and before that xanax. over Year in benzo hell is enough for me.

Try and read the thread before you post next time.

 

[gomakemeasandwich]

what kind of messed up logic is that? even if there was no chance of dying, why would you suggest i would have no problems doing that wager? what would i stand to gain? usually wagers involve some type of incentive. plus it wouldn't even prove anything scientificially, since i'm only one person.

I'm just saying that since you're so sure that the cold turkey withdrawal we've been talking about wouldn't kill "the majority" of the population and that you are (at least implicitly) recommending it to this guy, then you should have no problem trying it yourself.

 

[burn out]

I'm just saying that since you're so sure that the cold turkey withdrawal we've been talking about wouldn't kill "the majority" of the population and that you are (at least implicitly) recommending it to this guy, then you should have no problem trying it yourself.

well that's completely illogical.

first of all, in my first post i said "not that i am recommending anyone try this" (a point i reiterated again in subsequent posts) so i am clearly not recommending it.

secondly, i challenge your assertion that doubting something would cause death in the majority of people means you are implicitly recommending it. if someone said that operating a chainsaw without safety goggles would almost certainly cause death in the majority of people, i would challenge this proposition. however, that in no way implies i am recommending people operate a chainsaw without proper safety gear. it simply means i acknowledge the fact that it i think it's possible for most people to do so and survive (at least most people who can survive operating a chainsaw in the first place).

and to say that i should have no problem doing it myself, is yet another leap of logic. i could tell someone they could do something uncomfortable and unwise and yet probably survive it. that doesn't mean i would have no problem doing it myself though. there are plenty of uncomfortable, stupid and unwise things you can do that won't necessary kill you.

 

[gomakemeasandwich]

ok, well it's hardly my fault if someone other than me doesn't know what they're talking about.

i don't particularly care whether or not you believe me. it happened though. he wasn't on them for that long, which is part of the reason i think he survived.

you did not give me a proper source, nor is it "my turn" since the burden of proof is on you.

i am well aware of what i said in my first post. let me break it down for you.

you made a post with some good info which i didn't disagree with. however, i was skeptical about one thing you said (namely the fact that a fast taper from 3 mg of clonazepam a day will almost certainly kill you). i was skeptical of that because of the number of people ive seen on bluelight and in real life who have stopped similar, or even much larger benzo habits and haved survived. obviously there are no scientific studies where they give people ridiculous doses of benzos and then force them to withdraw to see what the actual death rate is. such studies would be insanely unethical, so it's absurd of you to ask me for a source.

i don't NEED to post sources to be skeptical. i reserve the right to be skeptical of the fact that a fast taper from 3 mg of clonazepam will almost certainly leave you dead. it certainly could kill you, but if i had to put money on it i'd guess that it wouldn't "almost certainly" kill you and a large percentage of people would survive.

i said "i don't recommend anyone do this". that is all the mention i felt was needed, since you already covered the risks and there is plenty of information about them on the internet already. as long as i am not advocating anyone stopping benzos too quickly or cold turkey (which i certainly wasn't), i think i'm covered.

i was and am simply skeptical about one of the claims you made and you seem to have taken great offense to it. if you can straight up tell me you don't believe my story about my friend, then i don't see why it should bother you if i am skeptical about a claim you made, which has no scientific proof.

ok, well it's hardly my fault if someone other than me doesn't know what they're talking about.

No, I was including you as well.

you did not give me a proper source, nor is it "my turn" since the burden of proof is on you.

No, it's not. This isn't an academic forum where I need to present and prove my case, it's an internet forum where people give advice for harm reduction. If you're going to call bullshit on what I say, you need a better example than "my friend did X."

Further, the idea of "my friend did X" is anecdotal and not the same as commonly accepted views within the medical community (which by your own admission you agree with) on benzodiazepine withdrawal and its dangers. The only difference is that you dispute a specific amount of a specific drug will have a specific reaction in the majority of cases.

As for my source, I gave you a report relating to benzodiazepines in general (and Xanax in particular), and while I didn't give you a specific study relating to long term Klonopin use and abrupt withdrawal (actually I did, but you had to pay to see it), I also said that I wasn't going to get in to a pissing contest about it either.

obviously there are no scientific studies where they give people ridiculous doses of benzos and then force them to withdraw to see what the actual death rate is. such studies would be insanely unethical, so it's absurd of you to ask me for a source.

That's what the monkeys are for, and yes there are studies which do exactly what you just described.

i don't NEED to post sources to be skeptical. i reserve the right to be skeptical of the fact that a fast taper from 3 mg of clonazepam will almost certainly leave you dead. it certainly could kill you, but if i had to put money on it i'd guess that it wouldn't "almost certainly" kill you and a large percentage of people would survive.

No, you don't have to post sources to be skeptical. You do however have to post sources if you want to say with any kind of legitimacy that the vast majority of people would survive an abrupt withdrawal of a high dose of a benzodiazepine. You can be skeptical all you want, but it doesn't mean that you're right, and it certainly doesn't give you the authority to seriously question what I say without more than anecdotal stories.

 

[burn out]

of course being skeptical doesn't mean i'm right, all i'm saying is, i remain skeptical.

That's what the monkeys are for, and yes there are studies which do exactly what you just described.

well post them then, this would be good information to have.

 

[gomakemeasandwich]

well that's completely illogical.

first of all, in my first post i said "not that i am recommending anyone try this" (a point i reiterated again in subsequent posts) so i am clearly not recommending it.

secondly, i challenge your assertion that doubting something would cause death in the majority of people means you are implicitly recommending it. if someone said that operating a chainsaw without safety goggles would almost certainly cause death in the majority of people, i would challenge this proposition. however, that in no way implies i am recommending people operate a chainsaw without proper safety gear. it simply means i acknowledge the fact that it i think it's possible for most people to do so and survive (at least most people who can survive operating a chainsaw in the first place).

and to say that i should have no problem doing it myself, is yet another leap of logic. i could tell someone they could do something uncomfortable and unwise and yet probably survive it. that doesn't mean i would have no problem doing it myself though. there are plenty of uncomfortable, stupid and unwise things you can do that won't necessary kill you.

You're focusing on the wrong thing in your first post. It is this that bothers me:

do you have any sources to back this up? my friend quit a 30-40 mg a day clonazepam habit cold turkey and he didn't die.

And in the context of the entire post:

do you have any sources to back this up? my friend quit a 30-40 mg a day clonazepam habit cold turkey and he didn't die. not that i am recommending anyone try this, i am just skeptical that "a reduction of .5 mg a day from 3 mg a day will almost certainly leave you dead."

What you specifically said was that no one should try to cold turkey off of 30-40mg a day of Klonopin, which is insignificant given your first sentence, which stated that you had some "friend" who went cold turkey off of 30-40mg of Klonopin a day and apparently without any side effects. That is how your first sentence looks to any rational reader--nothing about any side effects, nothing about the dangers, just "my friend did way more than that and was fine."

What you did (inadvertently perhaps) was trivialize the dangers of benzodiazepine withdrawal with yet another story of "my friend did X and was fine." Also, you said that no one should try to cold turkey that amount, which is different than the amount the OP stated and would probably lead him to believe that 3mg is nothing in comparison and that he wouldn't have any problems.

Your statement that "I'm not recommending anyone try this" doesn't cover your previous sentence because you're talking specifically about 30-40mg a day, and not addressing the 3mg a day the person was taking, and especially because you also challenge my assertion that going cold turkey off of 3mg of Klonopin after a year of benzodiazepine use will probably kill him, which plants seeds of doubt in the OP's mind about everything that I've said, which coincidentally you agree with, except for the part about abrupt withdrawal from the stated dose of Klonopin in the stated amount of time.

Only later do you mention that he should taper, that benzodiazepines should always be tapered, that they are dangerous, that your friend had problems with withdrawal, and that he was on them for "a short period of time." The point is that you weren't clear in your first post about what exactly you were and weren't recommending, and someone could easily read your first post to mean that it's ok to cold turkey benzodiazepines after long term use (something which you admit is not true in a later post) given the experience of your friend after going cold turkey off of a large amount of Klonopin.

 

[gomakemeasandwich]

of course being skeptical doesn't mean i'm right, all i'm saying is, i remain skeptical.

well post them then, this would be good information to have.

Fine, you can remain skeptical all you want, just don't undercut my post about a serious issue. If you want to discuss the specific issue we've been bitching over PM me and we can take it to BDD, or ADD if you're feeling really adventurous.

If you are seriously considering PMing me, wait until after August 1st as that is when I see my Pain Management doctor.

As for posting the monkey studies, you missed this (but still quoted it in one of your responses):

I'm not going to get in to the fact that serious benzodiazepine withdrawal effects like seizures can be induced by even low doses of long term (note: long term is considered more than six weeks) benzodiazepine use because I don't feel like pulling up monkey studies (yes, they tested benzodiazepine withdrawal on baboons) and comb through medical literature to prove a point. I gave you my advice, take it or leave it.

I have pain that burns through my back and chest--the last thing I want to do right now is look for benzo studies on baboons.

 

[TheLoveBandit]

w/d bump save