N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand
... whole load of islamists...
I mean the terrorist faction. And I just happened to pick that group because currently, the vast majority of terrorism is being comitted by islamist fanatics.
The pharmokinetics seems to be a critical factor. The LogP & pKa says a lot about effects after parenteral administration. In the UK at least, some people are (maybe it's 'were' by now) prescribed 'wet' ampoules of methadone to treat heroin dependence. I know 'wet' morphine and 'dry' diamorphine ampoules are still prescribed but I have noted that the dual μ/NMDA agents are rarely prescribed in a form that lends itself to anything but oral/rectal dosing. Every nation seems to have a dual agent and in every country they seem to be considered the most desirable opioid for recreational use but I can remember the wakeup to Dipipanone diversion in the UK. They must show exceptional utility in refractive patient groups for their continued inclusion in a doctors armory.
It is always at the back of my mind that any compound that is active (i.e. must be soluble but unionized in the blood) has the propensity to end up being administered in every manner that makes it active. I suppose that is why I'm more drawn to compounds with a potency range around that of morphine (you can see a dose unit). Anything that also has limited scope for respiratory depression (I'm not sure if DRI/NRI activity inherently increases breathing) is also a good thing. Addition of BIMU8 (or other 5HT3/5HT4 ligands) to dose-units or provision of such agents in a HR manner would be interesting but I'm uncertain of the inherent safety of such agents. Fatal poisonings due to tilidine have been reported but the amounts involved were clearly from suicidal rather than recreational dosage. Grams of the stuff taken with alcohol or other CNS depressants. Taken alone, nortilidine appears to have stimulant rather than depressant activity.
It isn't my place to judge anyone's informed choice in taking any compound they want to, I would just like to see the safest option that fills the market needs. If the market accepts fentanyl, that is quite a clear message that less euphoric opioids are at least accepted. I appreciate that Gresham's law applies more precisely to opioids than any other financial sector and we aren't going to see things change at any point in the near future but we will eventually. Finding the safest solution for then is of interest to me. Not the money, just the changes in society.
i live in germany and was addicted to tillidine(obviously not nortillidine,which would be interesting to try)for over a year in sometimes doses exceeding 2 grams/day,and i can most definitely say that tillidine has no strong stimulant properties like say tramadol has(which i also took an awful lot,so i can compare them quite well)it is a moderately strong opioid,weaker than morphine or oxy,quite a bit stronger than tramadol or reasonable doses of codeine but pretty useless to someone addicted to heroin or other top tier opioids,other than helping a lot with withdrawing from stronger opioids.
It has a stimulant edge to it very much comparable to oral oxycodone,but without the strong euphoria,its onset is also slower than oral oxycodone,but faster than oral morphine.
The english wikipedia says 100 mg is comparable to 20 mg oral morphine,but i would say 100 mg tilidine is comparable to 40-50 mg oral morphine,because of morphine terrible oral bioavailabillity(which is actually a godsend to me,because i get oral morphine as maintainance drug and i get 600 mg oral morphine a day for take home(which means i get a whole week worth of morphine once a week)and when i decide to shoot u,which i do very rarely,600 mg morphine is suddenly very,very much because 600 mg iv morphine is like 3 grams of oral morphine and i can make 5-6 hardcore bangers out of one day worth of morphine,thats why i stocked up alot of morphine.
I now have over 40 grams of morphine laying around (over 200 200 mgs morphine capsules which beads are easy to crush )
Isn't norpethidine a 'stimulant' under some other mechanism than monoaminergic? because its a convulsant.
Fentanyl and its derivatives are generally agreed to be more addictive than most other opiates, but thats more because of the short duration of action and the fact that the extreme potency makes them very reinforcing (rapid development of tolerance, severe withdrawal syndrome etc), the actual buzz is generally reckoned not to be anything particularly special.
Hydromorphone and oxymorphone are very euphoric when IV'd, but orally they aren't nearly as good, probably due to slow uptake into the blood, limited bioavailability etc. Same with pethidine (meperidine), good when IV'd but crappy orally.
Dipipanone is often mentioned as being particularly good, but its only ever been sold in combination with cyclazine so its hard to say what it would be like by itself, as cyclazine is known to increase the euphoria of other opioids also.
For an orally administered drug, oral oxycodone is generally much more fun than oral morphine, but then the bioavailability is like 80% for oral oxycodone and 30% for oral morphine so that probably makes a big difference.
The one opioid drug that always seems to be mentioned as particularly euphoric regardless of route is ketobemidone, although I've never met anyone who's tried it, any Scandinavians on here?
Interesting thread
And a complicated question: You mean RC effects, or analgesic, etc?
And btw, when equipotent doses of Morphine Classic and Heroin were administered at a gradual rate(IV), subjects effectively showed no preference
Technically, no study has proven any opioid more ?desirable ? per say, although for analgesia, it is known IV oxycodone Bolus has less side effects and takes effect almost immediately, vs morphine, which has a delayed peak, even with intravenous administration-(15-30 supposedly, onset is rapid with RC doses, with lower doses it can take several minutes)
For analgesia, methadone is better for certain types of pain, and methadone and morphine are still pretty much considered the analgesic heavy hitters AFAIK, and certainly, along with diamorphine, would be my choice for chronic pain
Oh, and oxycodone has a mean BA% of closer to 50%; Morphine BA%(or potency) increases with chronic administration, and is likely somewhat dose dependent, and variable, though like 15-40%? ( Dianorphine reaches 50-70% with chronic administration of high doses)
30% is a reasonable figure
Tge exotic opioids are a different story- ok sorry to interrupt