What opiates have been proven in studies to be more desirable than morphine?

[bupropion]

What opiates (besides heroin) have been proven in human studies (preferrably more than once) to be more desirable than morphine? An old Merck Index said desomorphine was more addictive than morphine. What about oxymorphone, dipipanone, 3-methylfentanyl and alpha-methylfentanyl? Any others?

 

[Ham-milton]

I doubt the fentanyls will be. Has there been any studies on this actually conducted? Only in monkeys, I'd assume. It'd be really interesting to know.

Also, are you talking about IV or oral use?

 

[bupropion]

I'm more interested in which give the qualitatively best overall euphoria so oral would probably be a better indicator. IV ratings would be interesting as well though. I've read hydromporphone is often rated higher than morphine in terms of initial IV effects but is rated lower overall.

 

[jykkE]

I've read hydromporphone is often rated higher than morphine in terms of initial IV effects but is rated lower overall.

That is correct. If you've ever IV'd hydromorphone, you'll know that while there is a very nice rush that accompanies it, the overall effects are very short lived and are highly diminished within 15-20 minutes to me if not less.

 

[Canis aureus]

Methadone

 

[nickeldick]

iv morphine

 

[negrogesic]

Methadone? Perhaps only if IV'ed....

There are numerous opioids that are subjectively more desirable than morphine, and an even greater number that are more "addictive"...

Drugs like levorphanol, dipipanone, oxymorphone, oxycodone, alpha-methylfentanyl, and DAM or 6-MAM (rarely seen on its own though, in fact probably never) are just a few that i thought were FAR better than morphine. There are a few hundred others as well...

 

[lyXw33d]

I think that even with fentanyl, you'd be more pressed to redose than with morphine, at least after a week or so of use.

 

[Pimp Lazy]

If I'm not mistaken methadone is not a true opiate. It also has a rather low affinity for most opioid receptors or maybe none at all I can't quite remember. I would imagine that the most pleasurable would differ by individual as differences in enzyme concentration and receptors densities would play a part. Dilaudid was the first that came to mind, but next to heroin I found that fresh poppies in a tea came next in the euphoria spectrum. Mu-receptors produce the most pleasure because of a related serotonin release at least to my knowledge. So whatever combination of mu and delta agonist works best.

PAX,
PL

 

[negrogesic]

If I'm not mistaken methadone is not a true opiate. It also has a rather low affinity for most opioid receptors or maybe none at all I can't quite remember. I would imagine that the most pleasurable would differ by individual as differences in enMzyme concentration and receptors densities would play a part. Dilaudid was the first that came to mind, but next to heroin I found that fresh poppies in a tea came next in the euphoria spectrum. Mu-receptors produce the most pleasure because of a related serotonin release at least to my knowledge. So whatever combination of mu and delta agonist works best.

PAX,
PL

?

Where do you hear these things?

Methadone affinity for the MOR is quite high, probably something in the ballpark of 10nM. It also has significant affinity to the other receptors...

 

[Ham-milton]

If I'm not mistaken methadone is not a true opiate. It also has a rather low affinity for most opioid receptors or maybe none at all I can't quite remember. I would imagine that the most pleasurable would differ by individual as differences in enzyme concentration and receptors densities would play a part. Dilaudid was the first that came to mind, but next to heroin I found that fresh poppies in a tea came next in the euphoria spectrum. Mu-receptors produce the most pleasure because of a related serotonin release at least to my knowledge. So whatever combination of mu and delta agonist works best.

PAX,
PL

You're very confused. Methadone is absolute an opiate, or rather opioid. It causes no release of serotonin. It has very high affinity for mu receptors, and is also a noncompetitive NMDA-antagonist.

Mu-receptors produce the most pleasure because of a related serotonin release at least to my knowledge.

Do you just make this stuff up on the spot or do you really believe this nonsense?

 

[mad_scientist]

Fentanyl and its derivatives are generally agreed to be more addictive than most other opiates, but thats more because of the short duration of action and the fact that the extreme potency makes them very reinforcing (rapid development of tolerance, severe withdrawal syndrome etc), the actual buzz is generally reckoned not to be anything particularly special.

Hydromorphone and oxymorphone are very euphoric when IV'd, but orally they aren't nearly as good, probably due to slow uptake into the blood, limited bioavailability etc. Same with pethidine (meperidine), good when IV'd but crappy orally.

Dipipanone is often mentioned as being particularly good, but its only ever been sold in combination with cyclazine so its hard to say what it would be like by itself, as cyclazine is known to increase the euphoria of other opioids also.

For an orally administered drug, oral oxycodone is generally much more fun than oral morphine, but then the bioavailability is like 80% for oral oxycodone and 30% for oral morphine so that probably makes a big difference.

The one opioid drug that always seems to be mentioned as particularly euphoric regardless of route is ketobemidone, although I've never met anyone who's tried it, any Scandinavians on here?

 

[Ham-milton]

There was someone who posted in OD about it recently (ketobemidone, that is), though it was a suppository. I dunno how that person chose to use it in the end though.

But the fentanyls don't have nearly the same degree of euphoria. Surely a drug that causes more euphoria will be more reinforcing than that just has a fast onset and end.

 

[negrogesic]

I had a ketogan suppository (10mg) maybe 4-5 years ago. Unfortunately I was using too many other opioids to truly get a sense of it...

Supposedly opioids of the benzimidazole (etonitazene being the most famous) class are quite euphoric, ive never met anyone who has used or knew anyone who used opioids of this class....

 

[Mr Blonde]

You're very confused. Methadone is absolute an opiate, or rather opioid. It causes no release of serotonin. It has very high affinity for mu receptors, and is also a noncompetitive NMDA-antagonist.

Lol, about the only true statement Pimp made was that methadone is not a true opiate. But, as you pointed out Ham, that's only because it's a fully synthetic opioid

 

[Pimp Lazy]

?

Where do you hear these things?

Methadone affinity for the MOR is quite high, probably something in the ballpark of 10nM. It also has significant affinity to the other receptors...

Other than the MOR I meant, but given it's so addictive it must have some affinity for others. It's also an SSRI and SNRI. But MOR agonists do cause a release of serotonin in the nucleus accumbens.

I just wanted to make the distinction because methadone sucks and its an opioid not an opiate. I've got at least two, maybe even four, true statements .

Peace,
PL

 

[MattPsy]

So why are we looking for the most addictive opioid? Seems liek a pretty silly way to go about finding the *best* opioid.

Addiction induction is not the best good correlate with pleasure/fun/desirabillity.

 

[JimiHawK*]

can anyone clarify what actually causes euphoria (from opiates at least)? Because i don't undertstand why even though the fentanyls have a higher affinity for Mu and are much more potent, they aren't considered to be as "euphoric".

cheers

 

[negrogesic]

Perhaps it is because morphine and semi-synthetic phenanthrenes also have definate affinity for the kappa and delta receptors, producing a subjectively "fuller" or more well-rounded feeling (vague I know), whereas drugs like fentanyl are mainly pure mu-agonists. But keep in mind, there are numerous other opioids that are more euphoric than DAM/6-MAM (some black tar heroin has a significant amount of 6-MAM), however one does not commonly come across it. When i was taking opioids, I used to like IV oxymorphone more than heroin, although they are quite different, and i suppose have their distinctive purposes....

 

[Smyth]

According to this document on the physical dependence of ohmefentanyl, fentanyl is less addictive than morphine, although it doesn't state to what extent.

Bear in mind that dihydroetorphine has also got a track-record for being less physically addictive than morphine so mixed agonism at mu/delta/kappa is unlikely to be sufficient to render a compound MORE addictive than simple mu agonism.

I've heard that too much kappa agonism is dysphoric and it is actually ANTagonism for this receptor that is judged to be euphoric.

So, like negrogesic pointed out, some of the moderate strength compounds like IV oxymorphone could be more recreational than heroin, but generally not any of the superstrength opioids.

I've also seen stories where people say ketobemidone and dipipanone are not all they are cracked-up to be, but I think they are still likely to be good compounds with at least SOME abuse validity.