A Guide and FAQ: What to do when someone Overdoses (work in progress)

[sixpartseven]

^ TR, with that bit of info, I think you should change what you say to 911 "unresponsive and not breathing"

If you already did, ignore me.

BTW, 2 more days and were going to finalize this. So, OD Community, get your suggestions in, and TR, make all the changes necessary so we can wrap it up on wednesday.

 

[memphis10]

wow, this is scary accurate

my first OD story:
me and a friend came into a lot of heroin, cocaine, and fire marijuana. while sitting on my friends front porch late that night my friend J is sitting there eyes closed mouth open drooling on himself. he starts to fall out and we lay him on the ground. the owner of the house said to just take him upstairs, wouldnt let us call 911 from the house phone. i didnt have a cell phone and my buddy didnt want to use his.

basically by myself i had to load J into the backseat of my car (NOT AN EASY THING TO DO) and drive to the closed walgreens around the corner to use a payphone. the payphone was broken and at that point i grabbed D's phone(he rode with me) and called 911...and said that some kid showed up at a party all fucked up and fell out and that no one would help him so we drove him here.

we layed J in the middle of the parking lot, as soon as we heard sirens we left.

he was fine.

 

[Flexistentialist]

This thread is only relevant for people in some parts of the US. Other parts of the world do not have police following around ambulances to charge people after someone has overdosed. Moving a person who's unconscious rather than calling an ambulance in the first instance could result in criminal charges of failing to render assistance.

Also, I think there should be much more emphasis in this post on learning basic first aid and CPR. At the very least mention the recovery position.

 

[TheodoreRoosevelt]

Moving a person who's unconscious rather than calling an ambulance in the first instance could result in criminal charges of failing to render assistance.

I stated you call 911 first, then move them to a more easier to get-to location.

Will edit with JunglistSoldier42's comments in mind.

 

[Flexistentialist]

^ And how to you propose to move an unconscious person without injuring them?

This thread should be in regional drug discussion. It's not appropriate for people anywhere else in the world to be moving someone who's overdosed, and in most countries someone using this information that you've provided will be charged with a serious criminal offense.

 

[sixpartseven]

ONE MORE DAY FOLKS

TR, get ready to get some work done tomorrow.

It is where it is for a reason, Flex. Tomorrow it will be closed, finalized, and posted as an FAQ in the directory. You have to realize a lot of American frequent OD and dont even know NADD exists. Its in here because of the high traffic.

 

[TheodoreRoosevelt]

^ And how to you propose to move an unconscious person without injuring them?

Not hard, although they are quite heavy. I'll add if you can't lift the body (a body is EXTREMELY heavy when unconscious, when the limbs just kinda flail and the body flumps, you'd be surprised) then maybe call in your immediate position.

This thread should be in regional drug discussion. It's not appropriate for people anywhere else in the world to be moving someone who's overdosed, and in most countries someone using this information that you've provided will be charged with a serious criminal offense.

Only difference I see in another part of the world is that you'd dial another number. I know people are going to disagree on some parts, but you're wrong. You need to move the body so the ambulance can get to it quicker and aren't trying to figure out which bloody house you're at. Unless you live in the Governor's Mansion or something, you need to at least move to the street corner of your road.

At the very least, take the person outside of the house and put him on the front porch!

editors note: heavy bodies, move person at least to porch, change heart attack to unresponsive dying person.

 

[Geist89]

Personally, if I was sitting around shooting up H with somebody and they overdosed, I would just call 911 and tell them they overdosed on heroin and stay there with them. I don't care if I'm going to get in trouble for drugs if it means being there supporting my friend on the verge of death. Anyone with basic first aid training knows the basics with what to do with someone while paramedics are coming (making sure their airway is open, etc). Being certified to give CPR is a nice thing to have too. That way you're also there to explain to the EMT's exactly what happened.

 

[TheodoreRoosevelt]

^Great to say, but when the moment comes I seriously doubt most of us would do that, including you Mr. BigTalk.

It'd be better if you moved the overdose victim somewhere easier for the ambulance, at least on your porch.

This thread and guide isn't about calling out people who choose not to call 911. It's about encouraging them to step forward, and showing them they can do it without changing who they are inside, for better or worse.

Sorry bro but my opinion is you'll do more good by showing 'scum' or whatever a way to keep their own asses covered instead of just telling people "be a man". Besides the fact you can do both, as a harm reduction point of view like this website I think it's more realistic.

There's nothing wrong with not wanting to call 911, but alas, that's another thread for another time.

 

[absent minded]

this is exactly what you need to do when someone overdosed. im glad there is a thread like this . it should get stickied. i called 911 when my roommate overdosed and kept her in my room while trying to revive her giving her cpr waiting for the medics.. there were drugs sitting right on my table and the cops charged me with everything, including reckless endangerment for 'shooting her up' because she snitched on me to get out of trouble, she said that i was the one that gave her the overdose shot. dont think someone you consider a good friend won't fuck you over royally. i was looking at 2-3 years for everything they found, luckily i got off on technicalities. they searched my place without proper consent.

 

[Flexistentialist]

Only difference I see in another part of the world is that you'd dial another number.

That is not true at all. In Australia, the police will not attend a non-fatal overdose unless there is a risk to the safety of the ambulance workers. They are not out to charge anyone with drug offenses relating to an ambulance call out, except in rare circumstances.

If someone from Australia or Europe (and I suspect Canada as well) read this thread and acted on the advice in it, they'd risk criminal charges as well as having a possibly dead friend on their hands.

Instead of wasting valuable time dragging an unconscious person to a street corner you could be doing some very basic CPR and saving them an hypoxic brain injury (at best) and their life (at worst). Do you even know how long it takes for hypoxia to cause permanent brain injury?

And seriously, in the age of satellite navigation, emergency services don't need your assistance in finding a house.

I accept that in some US states people risk prosecution from phoning emergency services, but this is an international bulletin board, and this advice is very dangerous outside of that particular context.

I also think that you need to check out the legal ramifications that apply to people who fail to render assistance (or worse, try interfering with a corpse), particularly if the end result is a death.

 

[TheodoreRoosevelt]

They don't need consent. Overdose definitely gives probable cause.

It is legal that they can assume that if someone used drugs or admitted to being high, that they possessed drugs at one point, and that you can be charged with possession.

I would just call 911 and tell them they overdosed on heroin and stay there with them. I don't care if I'm going to get in trouble for drugs if it means being there supporting my friend on the verge of death.

Also I just want to point out that this kind of attitude is silly. First of all you are risking legal trouble, and you talk like this probably because you don't know what a felony is like. Secondly you should be moving their body to somewhere the EMT can get to, out on main street preferably but at least out on the porch.

You don't need to say they overdosed on heroin. Just say unresponsive subject who is clearly dying. It doesn't make you any better of a person to say heroin, and in my opinion it means you're a fool.

I don't mean to be so harsh but I'm going to take your criticism and address it, and maybe that's not exactly what you meant you'd do, but I'm going to clear that out of people's heads right now.

The worst possible thing you can do is try to drive them yourself to the hospital. You risk killing someone in an auto accident, if you are pulled over by cops or flee from them you aren't getting any breaks and will get charged with possession because they are high (yes, they can do that). And the ambulance can get there many times quicker than you can, you are stupid to think you can beat them.

If someone from Australia or Europe (and I suspect Canada as well) read this thread and acted on the advice in it, they'd risk criminal charges as well as having a possibly dead friend on their hands.

No, they wouldn't. I don't say anything that would do so, and nothing that would risk their death. All the advice in this thread is specifically directed towards getting the EMT there as quick as possible. I don't know what you disagree with exactly but I'm going to say you're wrong.

Instead of wasting valuable time dragging an unconscious person to a street corner you could be doing some very basic CPR and saving them an hypoxic brain injury (at best) and their life (at worst). Do you even know how long it takes for hypoxia to cause permanent brain injury?

The EMT can do this. If you are not trained for CPR then do not even attempt to try to do it, you can very easily break their ribs and cause serious permanent damage. Even those who correctly do CPR often break ribs in the process, which is not a bad thing as there is something more pressing at the matter, but if done incorrectly it's a world of trouble.

Those who have been trained for CPR will know to give CPR as necessary. There is no need to address it in this thread - those who don't know it should not even attempt it at all, those who do will know what to do because they are trained. I will post in the thread not to attempt to do CPR.

As for "wasting valuable time dragging... to a street corner" well, this is done in the 1-3 minutes it takes the ambulance to get there. This is so the EMT aren't fumbling around in your house, or trying to find your house, which you mentioned in this comment...:

And seriously, in the age of satellite navigation, emergency services don't need your assistance in finding a house.

Honestly this comment is just plain ridiculous.

To give a little story and humor into this thread: I used to work as a pizza delivery driver. My friend asked "Man, how do figure out the addresses?" I told him we all got GPS systems installed in our cars telling us the addresses. This probably isn't that funny to anyone who's never been a delivery driver, but point is, is that THEY DO NOT HAVE GPS SYSTEMS INSTALLED IN THE AMBULANCES.

It doesn't matter either. The driver can know exactly where the address is, exactly where he is going, but sometimes, you just are going too fast and pass the turn. Sometimes you're driving down the right road and not sure which house is it - you have no idea how hard it is to figure out which house is which in the dark, most houses don't have addresses posted properly. Secondly, even if you're in the right area, just because you know the maps doesn't mean you know the area. Apartment buildings are especially confusing. Many neighborhoods are just designed funny.

I don't know what to really say to you, but you're absolutely and incredulously wrong. Try being a delivery driver of any sort, even an ambulance driver, and then you will realize how hard some neighborhoods can be. Just because you have a GPS system or know the maps does not mean you know where to go. I can only say that your comment comes out of not knowing what you are talking about.

As such, it is important that you are outside with the body, and preferably on the main road.

If the ambulance has to spend time stopping and making turns in your neighborhood, that drastically makes the trip longer. The idea is that you want the ambulance to stay on 'main street' the whole time and pick the victim up on the side of main street.

You're comments are wrong and I believe I have shot them down as appropriate. I understand your concern, but you are just wrong. Overdoses are a serious matter and I'm not going to give you a pass giving the wrong information. I know you're a great poster, and I mean no offense, but I've done the study and I've done the experience and I've done the real life research. You are wrong.

And come on, in the age of GPS systems ambulance don't get lost? Man oh man, you are so wrong it's funny right there, come on, we can all have a little chuckle at that. I've done delivery with GPS systems and in the majority of cases where you get lost, it has nothing to do with not knowing the roads or maps. Many neighborhoods are just plain confusing, and delivery drivers spend a good chunk of their time driving around the neighborhood to find the right house. You need to have the victim out in the open so they don't have to guess around the neighborhood.

Just try being a pizza delivery driver, or postal worker, or whatever, for a day. It can all be very confusing to get to the right house, and you don't want the ambulance to do that. They DO get lost at times, and they DO fumble around trying to find the right address, it's very common.

Theodore 1, World 0. Final edits coming up, soon to be stickied.

Thanks everyone for contributing, I've gotten a lot of great feedback from the community here and this "Work in Progress" thread was a great idea.

I want to especially thank SixPartSeven for all of his help. Without his help this guide would merely be another post in a locked thread, long lost in the archives.

 

[TheodoreRoosevelt]

editors note: heavy bodies, move person at least to porch, change heart attack to unresponsive dying person, dont do cpr, and you dont risk any charges by doing this even if your in another country.

stress that these are the absolute confirmed and best way to deal with an overdose in the perspective of the victim, no matter the country.

 

[sixpartseven]

A finalized version of this thread is now going to be found in the Drug FAQ's forum.

This thread here is going to stay open for further discussion and comments/corrections.

A link to the final thread will also be found in the OD Directory and certain Mega Threads that are either now finished or currently being worked on.

Thanks for everyones input. Feel free to continue with productive discussions.

 

[Flexistentialist]

It seems you have problems understanding that other countries are very different from your own. I'll give you a little example. Here in Australia, if you phone emergency services with an unconscious person on your hands, they will direct you in performing CPR over the phone. That's because they understand how quickly permanent hypoxic brain injury occurs, and a few very simple acts on your part can prevent this. I guarantee you, when you phone emergency services they will not direct you to carry the person to the nearest street corner so the ambulance can find them quicker.

I thought right from the start you made it pretty clear that the whole reason you're moving an unconscious person was to avoid police attending. Are you now saying that you just want to move them so the ambulance finds them faster?

There is a specific problem in the US, where police can attend these call outs, however that is only true of the US, and is not relevant to the rest of the world where the drug war doesn't rage as hard. And our ambulances don't require us to be left on street corners in order to attend to us.

 

[sixpartseven]

^ It doesnt matter.

The final copy of this thread is being sent to Drug FAQ's anyways, so if the information doesnt apply to your country, then dont read it. Its that simple. Arguing about it is not going to change what we (mainly TR) are doing with this guide.

I gave him permission to put this in OD. OD is very high traffic and he would get a lot more feedback than if he were to put it in a regional forum. If you dont like the information being given, then dont read it. Other people have obviously found it to be very useful.

 

[Flexistentialist]

It's not that I "don't like it". It's dangerous advice that is only vaguely useful in a limited context in one country. Withholding valid first aid (eg basic CPR or even just maintaining the recovery position and an open airway) is counter harm reduction.

You are putting someones life above you getting busted, and now it's an FAQ. That ain't harm reduction, however you want to argue it!

 

[TheodoreRoosevelt]

I thought right from the start you made it pretty clear that the whole reason you're moving an unconscious person was to avoid police attending. Are you now saying that you just want to move them so the ambulance finds them faster?

You clearly misread the thread then. I stated the reason you are moving the person is to get the ambulance there quicker, and I've stated this since the beginning version which is still in the Testing Forums.

I stated that you can do this to avoid paranoia if you want, sometimes if you are in a house of another individual they don't care what you know about overdoses and Bluelight, they won't allow you to call in an overdose to their house.

However, given you are calling in an "unresponsive subject" instead of a drug overdose, the cops should not be coming anyways.

But you clearly misread the thread. I stated very succinctly that the point of moving them was so the EMT can locate them easier and quicker.

There is a specific problem in the US, where police can attend these call outs, however that is only true of the US, and is not relevant to the rest of the world where the drug war doesn't rage as hard. And our ambulances don't require us to be left on street corners in order to attend to us.

This is not the place for you to spout anti-Americanism. I hardly doubt that America is the only nation that brings cops to drug overdose calls, America is hardly the most zealous anti-drug nation.

It has nothing to do with leaving kids on street corners for fear of prosecution. You are leaving them on well lit, safe, and public street corners, if possible, so that the EMT can get to them quicker. The EMT will be able to spot the victim ASAP if you are on a well lit street corner rather than scouring through a neighborhood. I don't know where you are from, but some neighborhoods in America are extremely unorganized. All the GPS in the world doesn't change the fact that some places are just fucking confusing.

I've been a delivery driver, so I can't really tell you. You'll just have to take my word that GPS and knowing the maps won't do shit, some places are just confusing by how they were built (poorly).

You do not need to be snide and jeering in your criticism. You are wrong, plain and simple. I never said to leave them "out on the street corner" but rather on a well lit, public, and safe location that is easily recognizable, such as a street intersection. You do not need to twist the words of my post and make it out like I'm advocating you just ditch them on the block. I stated very clearly that if you are going to leave them, you do it somewhere SAFE, and WELL LIT, and most importantly, easily recognizable.

I do not mean to be an ass but I am very firm and very adamant about what I posted, and you are wrong. Sorry, I really can't put it any other way. I will say this though - some of your criticism has led to some edits, to make some points more clear as obviously they were not.

 

[sixpartseven]

Do you know how many people die from OD's because someone is scared to call for an ambulance?

This will give those people courage to do so. That will, in effect, save lives. Even if someone reads this and says "There is no way Im leaving them alone, but some of those other tips really help," then that means TR did something right.

No one has to follow this guide word for word if they dont want to. Its a basic outline of how you can actually call for an ambulance and not ahve to worry about getting in trouble.

Anyone who is not concerned about getting in trouble doesnt need to read this. This guide is for those who without it would have not called for help if someone near them OD'ed. Now they have some motivation to do it.

I stand by it. The rest of the OD staff stands by it, and unless an Admin has a problem with it, then it stays.

 

[TheodoreRoosevelt]

It's not that I "don't like it". It's dangerous advice that is only vaguely useful in a limited context in one country. Withholding valid first aid (eg basic CPR or even just maintaining the recovery position and an open airway) is counter harm reduction.

You are putting someones life above you getting busted, and now it's an FAQ. That ain't harm reduction, however you want to argue it!

This is not dangerous advice, what you are advocating is what is dangerous.

This is not limited to the context of one country either, but useful in all countries.

Do not perform CPR is you are not trained. I don't know what Austrailia tells you to do, but there is a reason it's not done in America. If you do not know how to give CPR, or only seen it on TV, you can very easily kill someone doing it wrong. I must strongly disagree with you advocating to give CPR if you don't know how to do it in such a high-stress situation.

My guide is basically this:

1. Call 911 and report it as an unresponsive subject. You avoid police for this one, as in many countries you can get in trouble. Even though in some you may not get in trouble it makes NO difference - the EMT will prep and know what to do. It's not like they are going to be spending any extra time trying to figure out what's going on. Even if you call in a heroin overdose, they won't arrive with that expectation.

People lie, people don't know what's going on, the EMT prepares for everything and for the worst. And they will know what to do.

Also report the location.

2. Move the body to the location - this can be your front porch, on the well lit public street corner, a gas station, et cetera. The point is that you must make it a well lit and easily recognizable location so the ambulance gets there immediately and isn't bothered by going inside a house or a strange neighborhood. Even having to slow down for being in a neighborhood is precious time lost that could not have been lost if you move the body outside the residential area.

If you are too paranoid to stay with the body, there is nothing wrong with that at all. From a harm reduction point of view, this is to make sure everyone calls 911. Just make sure if you leave the body it is in a safe, well lit, recognizable location. You can watch from afar if you want.

And that's it. The rest of the guide is FAQ basically.