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Thread: Neo-doves Part II

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    Bluelighter
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    Don't want to spoil P_d's thunder, but well done, WW- you're the closest to date. PM me if you'd like to chat some more- would love to hear about Israeli perspective... Spoke with P_d earlier today- perfectionist that he is, a typically methodical summary is furiously being prepared for BL readers- before any further publication- and will be available in the next 12-24 hours. Looking forward to it myself- no doubt that what little is known about the compounds will be available in his review. BL'ers might be surprised at how many mainstream researchers use BL because of people like P_d....
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    drplatypus i have tried to PM u but ya inbox full.
    got some interesting questions and info for ya.
    Sorry for my off chops rants
    12-24 hours can't wait.
    Many people from UWA use BL for research
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    Bluelighter
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    Quote Originally Posted by drplatypus
    Don't want to spoil P_d's thunder, but well done, WW- you're the closest to date. PM me if you'd like to chat some more- would love to hear about Israeli perspective... Spoke with P_d earlier today- perfectionist that he is, a typically methodical summary is furiously being prepared for BL readers- before any further publication- and will be available in the next 12-24 hours. Looking forward to it myself- no doubt that what little is known about the compounds will be available in his review. BL'ers might be surprised at how many mainstream researchers use BL because of people like P_d....
    Just wrote you a PM, but your box is (understandably) full at the moment. Short version: anyone who's had 'Hagigat', the cathinone-derived X alternative which was banned in Israel back in '04, recognises the neo effect right away: they're clearly in the same ballpark, though there may well be other ingredients in the Doves, and I'm not sure spirits are khat-derived (if so, they're doing something pretty interesting to the organic material.)

    People in Israel seem better able to moderate their consumption, unless that;'s just my cousins and their friends, but a couple of caps with a few ice cold beers in the course of a LONG night and day's partying was the norm over there: in the UK, people seem to be binging at quite frightening levels. I don't, in general, support prohibition, but with the way these things play out, they're clearly going to be banned soon.
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    Bluelighter
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    The other thing - in Israel, people were pretty emphatic about NOT mixing Hagigat et cetera with other stimulants or psychedelics - I had one not great experience of X on neos (speedy pill, though), and have been told reliably that mixing sub-cocas and coke puts outrageous strain on the heart.

    Once, after an all day session (2 spirits, 2 ND's, a compressor, one hit of X), I took a large - excessive - dose of kratom on the comedown, and could tell I within spitting distance of needing medical attention: had to struggle to stay awake, because I could tell I was as close as I'd ever come to an opiate overdose, and really had to make a point of not drifting off. Symptoms closely resembled descriptions of overdoing the speedball dosage. I'd say really, really DON'T MIX these with illegal shit, large amounts of booze, or anything beyond a little weed and beer: even downers on the comedown seem to be a little unpredictable.
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    Hmmm have mixed with E, Meth alcohol and benzos
    Worse effects seem to be off mixing with alcohol.
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    I wonder if any of them can be smoked?
    anyone tried?
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    Bluelighter
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    Sorry about the full mailbox, all- will empty it and address all enquiries ASAP.
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    Bluelighter 3 to the 3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Where Wolf?
    DON'T MIX these with illegal shit, large amounts of booze, or anything beyond a little weed and beer: even downers on the comedown seem to be a little unpredictable.
    Funnily enough, I had a negative reation from diazepam after 1 dove & 1 SC one night. I took the Valium to try and go to sleep, instead I had a surge of nervous energy, like a mild panic attack.

    Never happened with diazepam before. Only lasted about 10 mins, but it wasn't a good thing..
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    Bluelight Crew Samadhi's Avatar
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    ^That's really interesting, 3 to the 3... i had one spirit orally on a saturday afternoon (and 2 small lines of spirit powder) and slept quite well (but i was drinking steadily as well). I was ok the next day (felt a bit of cotton wool in my head), but on the Sunday night, had 2 x doziles (doxylamine succinate - OTC sleeping tablet), and had quite a nasty, what i thought, panic attack. It was within 1/2 an hour of taking the doziles. I was wide awake, i started visibly shaking, and it felt very panic-attack-like. I couldn't articulate what was causing it, to my husband, i felt almost frozen. It wasn't pleasant at all, mine lasted much longer.
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    i'd blame Dozile over the spirit. Anything, even caffeine, can affect dozile. If it doesnt knock you out you're pretty much going to have sleep paralysis and weird ass panicky things happen to you.. I hate the drug personally
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    I have had many benzos and also anti histamines without any troubles.
    Had troubles getting off on DMT last night while on some ND and spirits.
    after a bit i did get effects but not the usual flashing vivid morphing DMT type hallucinations. could have been the DMT as it was old.
    Dozile is really bad for the brain don't think they even recommend it to people over 60
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    Bluelight Crew Samadhi's Avatar
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    I've had doziles in the past, and they've never affected me like that. I just found it odd that after having this particular substance (spirit) that i was affected this way.

    I also suffer from sleep paralysis periodically, but have never experienced it after using doxylamine succinate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by samadhi
    I've had doziles in the past, and they've never affected me like that. I just found it odd that after having this particular substance (spirit) that i was affected this way.

    I also suffer from sleep paralysis periodically, but have never experienced it after using doxylamine succinate.

    I get sleep paralysis as well and have never had it from doxylamine succinate, but I do get pretty violent dreams lol

    I have however had a panic attack and an almost stimulant effect from taking two doziles, it was quite odd, kept me awake, just drained and dopey
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    Bluelight Crew Samadhi's Avatar
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    Hmmm, maybe it was just a 'coinkydink' then?

    Seriously, though, i've never experienced that with doziles before - only once have i had too many (around 4 over a period of about 4 hours) and i got very real auditory hallucinations and was wide awake - but no panic attack. It was disconcerting, to say the least, considering i'd suffered from panic attacks in my early 20s. I then thought that the mix of the spirit and DS was the culprit - possibly because noone really knows, yet, what they are, ergo, what they're contraindicated with.
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    Bluelight Crew vanth's Avatar
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    samadhi have you had any panic attacks since using them when not on or coming down from the pills? Or noticed an increased anxiety level? Or anyone for that matter?

    Personally, having one a panic attack while coming down isn't too big a price to pay, but if it leads to more panic attacks in the future I'm less keen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splatt
    i'd blame Dozile over the spirit. Anything, even caffeine, can affect dozile. If it doesnt knock you out you're pretty much going to have sleep paralysis and weird ass panicky things happen to you.. I hate the drug personally
    personally I find it a life saver
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    benzos and stilnox are much better, and some alcohol. just stretch it over a long period. A large dose of dozile is pretty dangerous. its probably about the same liver damagae as alcohol, benzos and stilnox, butthe deleriuous effectst cannot becontrolled. For example only after some speedbomb pills, I stayed awaking using dramamine and doxylamine and had one of the most delusional long exp[erience of my life.. more what i'd think datura is like...... after hours of tourture favcing pigmes gurningh at me huggling ten-pil-bowling pins and see my girlfiend bleed out her eyes and face in bec convulsing while she was fine... alot of very visual dustubing and physical stuff happened that night, and for some reason she cant use dozile either.. goes totally delusional.

    when sober its more inclinded to cause a series of 2 hours of sleep paralysis every few minutes... things like thinijng i cant move from a road and about to get run over, to me thinking im in a chair laughing out loud trying not tyo let the house hear it... all uncontrollable, all dreams that were 100% real and heart poundingly scared. i could literally feel it a bout to explode.


    i think in the future benzos used to hypnotic/sleep effwects willbe banned, and as stilnox and al;l things that are anti histamine related. i see a more engogenic-CB* receptor processed prodrug or prescriptions set along those lines arising, that uses cannainboid or salvia receptors after years and years of pharmy companies battling against grants for studies to research it legally.. that wilk be good for sleep without causing R.E.M imbalance and sleep time.
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    I really want to try a bit of the 5g of pushup I have bought from Neo but think it is best to wait till we get the results

    I snorted a quarter of a spirt once... do you think if they have drugs in that make you go mental in 20 years time that is enough to do it ?
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    Is it still legal to import SC2 into Australia?
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    nio SC2 legal says doron,

    something said not good. ahh

    The good drplatypus said we would have answers by now......... oh how i i can use my watch waiting................
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    Bluelight Crew Samadhi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vanth
    samadhi have you had any panic attacks since using them when not on or coming down from the pills? Or noticed an increased anxiety level? Or anyone for that matter?

    Personally, having one a panic attack while coming down isn't too big a price to pay, but if it leads to more panic attacks in the future I'm less keen.
    I had a very mild one on the monday morning, however i'd slept badly and was fretting about going to work, because of how i was feeling. It was an "almost-attack" and stopped within a minute of starting. I've had no ill effects since. As I said, though, it's put me off now.
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    Bluelight Crew phase_dancer's Avatar
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    Chemical Analysis of Neorg. Products Updated 05/01/10

    The following results stem from analysing 4 x samples, as received by the analytical chemists involved. Before discussing these results, a few points need to be mentioned.

    The analytical procedures were carried out by experienced, qualified forensic chemists working in an accredited laboratory.

    These results are representative of the above mentioned samples. It's possible that the manufacturer/ supplier may have changed the formulas of these products since the time these samples were received. The products could also be packaged differently or may now contain different formulations. Variation in formulas may include:

    • Addition of other compounds not found in tested samples
    • Removal or replacement of one or more active compounds
    • Reformulation of the determined compounds i.e. altered ratios of active compounds.



    Procedures:

    Analyses were accomplished using Gas Chromatography & Mass Spectral Detection (GC/MSD) for volatile and semi volatile organic compounds and Liquid chromatography and Mass Spectral Detection (LC/MSD) to determine molecular weight, and infrared spectroscopy. Nuclear Magnetic resonance (1HNMR and 13CNMR) was used to elucidate the structure of 2 chemicals, for which spectral data was unavailable.


    Limitations:

    [Edit: At the time this was first published on BL, as certified reference samples of the suspected compounds were not available, identification via the above techniques could only be considered tentative. Pure samples were subsequently obtained for 3 of the compounds, and compound IDs validated or corrected (as below). In the case of 4-MMC, the compound was synthesised by the chemist involved and it's spectra compared with that of the unknown obtained from the samples]


    Notification of Authorities:

    Due to the illicit nature of 4 of the five compounds identified, authorities were informed of the outcomes of these tests.


    Results:

    Product 'Spirit'


    Procedures used: Marquis presumptive test, GC/MSD, LC/MSD, NMR,

    Reaction with Marquis Reagent produced a pale pink colour. Interpretation of spectral data and comparison with synthesised sample iconfirmed the presence of:

    4-Methylmethcathinone


    Structural description: 4-methylmethcathinone is a para-substituted, N-methyl cathinone.


    Product: Sub Coca 2



    Procedures used: Marquis presumptive test, GC/MSD, LC/MSD

    Reaction with Marquis Reagent was considered relatively insignificant and produced a slightly yellow colour. Interpretation of spectral data, confirmed with that from a pure reference standard confirmed the presence of:

    2-Fluoromethamphetamine

    Structural description: 2-fluoromethamphetamine is a ortho-substituted, N-methylamphetamine

    Phthalimidopropiophenone

    Structural description:
    Phthalimidopropiophenone is a phthalimido derivative of cathinone.


    Product: Sub Coca


    &

    Product: Neodove


    Procedures used: Marquis presumptive test, GC/MSD, LC/MSD

    It was concluded that both these products contain the same active compounds, but in different proportions (quantitative data not provided).

    Reaction with Marquis produced a pale orange colour, dissimilar to the colour produced from Marquis Reagent reaction with amphetamine. Results of spectral data, compared with data from obtained pure standards confirmed the presence of:


    4-Methylmethcathinone (N-methyl-4-methylaminopropiophenone)

    N-ethylcathinone

    Phthalimidopropiophenone

    Caffeine



    Comments


    There exists little to no pharmacological data for two of these compounds. Where possible some comparisons have been made with similarly structured compounds. It needs to be emphasised though, that in such cases, the following comments are only speculative. However, while the toxicological profiles for some of these chemicals are still in doubt, it is still worth carefully considering whether, in some cases, there is significant potential for impact on user health and wellbeing. Hopefully, other contributors will be able to further enlighten us on the pharmacology of these compounds.

    Compound:

    4-methylmethcathinone





    Legal:
    Under Australian law, in all states where analogue legislation exits, 4-Methylmethcathinone is considered a structural analogue of the scheduled (illicit) drug methcathinone.

    Pharmacological: 4-Methylmethcathinone is sympathomimetic stimulant. From proposed SAR modelling, 4-methylmethcathinone is expected to have similar pharmacological properties to methcathinone, but with increased activity on the serotonin neurotransmitter systems. Methcathinone is suggested as being more potent than its parent cathinone, and methamphetamine (1)

    Methcathinone is a drug with a high abuse potential, with prolonged, high dosages known to cause psychosis and withdrawal tremors. Methcathinone is regarded as being similar in profile to methamphetamine in relation to neurotoxicity, with marked decreases in DA levels noted among abstinent users. While generally below levels associated with Parkinsons Disease, this is considered to be demonstrative of permanent, or semi permanent neurological damage (2)

    Compared with controls, abstinent methamphetamine
    and methcathinone users had significant decreases in
    DAT density in the caudate nucleus (223 and 224%, respectively)
    and putamen (225 and 216%, respectively).
    It can be speculated that the para substituted compound 4-methylmethcathinone may have reduced stimulant activity, but as said, its likely to have additional affect on serotonin via both monoamine reuptake/ SERT inhibition and direct agonist affects of the 5HT2b receptors. Concerns have been raised regarding the actions of 4-methylmethcathinone in relation to peripheral 5HT (serotonin) stimulation and how that, combined with other catecholamine activity, may be dangerous to the heart.

    In a similar manner to which pulmonary hypertension is caused by peripheral 5HT produced by gastrointestinal carcinoid tumours (and some argue 5HTP), other 5HT2b agonists have been found to cause this effect, which would be exacerbated by increased DA/NE levels and their corresponding affect on the heart. Longer term, such stimulation has been shown to result in fibroblast mitosis of the mitral valve of the left atrium (specifically the Chordae Tendineae). (3,4)

    While it has yet to be demonstrated by means of scientific study that 4-methylmethcathinone produces these effects, I believe it's wise to consider carefully the possible toxicity of this compound if you're intending to ingest or otherwise consume products containing this drug.


    Compound:


    2-Fluoromethamphetamine




    Legal:
    Under Australian law, in all states where analogue legislation exits, 2-Fluoromethamphetamine is considered a structural analogue of the scheduled (illicit) drug methamphetamine.

    Pharmacological: Edit: This compound was initially thought to be the para regioisomer (4-fluoromethamphetamine) As these regioisomers are very difficult to specifically identify using std GCMS procedures, positive identification required comparing the GC retention times of the unknown against known pure standards. The unknown matched 2-FMA.

    All three regioisomers of N-methyl-fluoroamphetamine have been noted in Forensic literature (5)


    Compound:

    N-ethylcathinone





    Legal:Under Australian law, in all states where analogue legislation exits, N-ethylcathinone is considered a structural analogue of the scheduled (illicit) drugs cathinone and methcathinone.

    Pharmacological: N-ethyl cathinone is the active metabolite of the drug diethylpropion, once marketed as an appetite suppressant under the trade names Tenuate Anorex, Linea, Nobesine, Prefamone, Regenon, Tepanil (wiki) It was withdrawn from sale in Australia due to health concerns.


    1. G.W. Kunsman, R. Jones, B. Levine and M.L. Smith; Methylephedrine Concentrations in Blood and Urine Specimens, Abstracts to the SOFT annual meeting, October 5-9, 1997, Utah[/QUOTE]
    From here


    Diethylpropion [Tenuate Dospan]

    Disposition in the Body.

    Readily absorbed after oral administration. Metabolised by N-dealkylation, reduction, deamination, and N-hydroxylation primarily to active metabolites; keto reduction is stereoselective resulting in the formation of threo–hydroxylated metabolites; glucuronide formation also occurs along with the formation of hippuric and mandelic acids. About 80 to 90% of a dose is excreted in the urine; the amount excreted in the urine is reduced when the urine is alkaline; of the urinary excreted material, N-ethylaminopropiophenone, norephedrine (phenylpropanolamine), and hippuric acid are the main metabolites together with small amounts of unchanged drug, aminopropiophenone, N-diethylnorephedrine, and N-ethylnorephedrine. Diethylpropion crosses the blood–brain barrier and the placenta. The drug and its metabolites are distributed into breast milk.

    Therapeutic concentration

    Following a single oral dose of 75 mg to 5 subjects, a mean peak plasma concentration of 0.007 mg/L was attained in 0.5 h; total concentrations of the monodesethyl and didesethyl metabolites reached an average peak of 0.19 mg/L at 2 h. [G. J. Wright et al.,Drug Metab. Rev.,1975, 4, 267–276.]

    Toxicity.

    The estimated minimum lethal doses are 200 mg for a child and 2 g for an adult.

    The following disposition was reported in a case of fatal overdose resulting from the injection of illicit diethylpropion tablets: blood 5.4 mg/L, bile 14.4 mg/L, kidney 0.9 μg/g, liver 0.9 μg/g, injection site 43.2 μg/g. [R. R. Fysh and J. F. Taylor,Bull. Int. Assoc. Forensic Toxicol.,1978, 142, 16–17.]
    Half–life.

    Derived from urinary excretion data, 1.5 to 3 h in subjects whose urines are acidic.
    From Clarke’s Analysis of Drugs and Poisons



    Compound:

    Phthalimidopropiophenone




    Legal: Under Australian law, if Phthalimidopropiophenone produces an illict drug in-vivo, this compound is considered a pro-drug and as such covered by analogue legislation as applies to most states.

    Chemistry: A known method of producing amines (including beta-keto amines) is to react an alkyl halide with potassium phthalimide (which is itself made from phthalic anhydride and ammonia). The reaction is known as the Gabriel Synthesis of primary amines. Normally, then phthalimido compound is subjected to either acid or alkali hydrolysis to cleave off the phthalate ion and release the amine either as a salt (acid) or a free base (alkali, hydrazine).

    One thing I’ve not mentioned so far concerns the shelf life of cathinones. Cathinones with a secondary or tertiary amine are far more stable than is cathinone itself, which has been noted to sometimes form a cyclization product when being synthesized, and age to form a dimer like product when left standing.

    Cleaving the phthalimido group in the lab therefore not only results in a product with a short shelf life, but is also known for producing side reaction products. In short, it’s messy, with the best method considered to be to use hydrazine, and hydrazine is not nice to work with. Also, by leaving the group attached, the free amine is essentially ‘hidden’, and so its thought this would help to mask an already illicit substance.

    Pharmacological: A range of prodrugs incorporating a GABA-phthalimide structure have been developed, in particular, for applications in the treatment of epilepsy. One question is; can the phthalimido group be adequately cleaved in the stomach? Acid hydrolysis is normally a very slow process, but it’s been suggested that this may be hastened via enzymatic activity or be performed completely by pyramidinases enzymes (thanks vecktor). Concerns to health include the metabolic elimination of the phthalate ion/ phthalic acid, particularly with prolonged use, and the possible impacts if cleavage occurs in sensitive organs. If hydrolysis does occur in the stomach, then it might explain how effects differ with different routes of administration. Either way, it’s expected the rate at which cleavage occurs would be slow, and may explain the noted changing of effects over several hours.


    Compound:

    Caffeine




    Legal: Legal under Australian law


    There's much information available on the effect of caffeine. Caffeine is known to have effect on the absorption of some drugs and drug combinations (6). For further info on Caffeine, a good place to start is Erowid


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    Much has not been covered in this post. We have not considered isomers of these compounds and their variations in effects, impurities from synthesis, possibility of interactions with other drugs, etc.....




    Refs

    1) Martin D Schechter; Drug-Drug Discrimination: Stimulus Properties of Drugs of Abuse Upon a Serotonergic-Dopaminergic Continuum; Pharmacology Biochemistry and Behavior Volume 56, Issue 1, January 1997, Pages 89-96

    2) Una D. McCann, Dean F. Wong, Fuji Yokoi, Victor Villemagne, Robert F. Dannals, and George A. Ricaurte; Reduced Striatal Dopamine Transporter Density in Abstinent Methamphetamine and Methcathinone Users: Evidence from Positron Emission Tomography Studies with [11C]WIN-35,428; The Journal of Neuroscience, October 15, 1998, 120):8417–8422

    3) Takafumi Nagatomo, Mamunur Rashid, Habib Abul Muntasir and Tadazumi Komiyama; Functions of 5-HT2A receptor and its antagonists in the cardiovascular system; Pharmacology & Therapeutics Volume 104, Issue 1, October 2004, Pages 59-81

    4) Bluelight post http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showpost....47&postcount=9 and thread http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=287832

    5) Peter Ro¨sner, Bernd Quednow, Ulrich Girreser, Thomas Junge; Isomeric Fluoro-methoxy-phenylalkylamines: a new series of controlled-substance analogues (designer drugs); Forensic Science International 148 (2005) 143–156

    6) Bluelight thread: Article on Interactions between common MDMA substitutes affecting absorption


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

    Comments, criticisms etc on the above are most encouraged.


    I would like to extend a big thanks to the numerous Bluelighters and Non-Blers who assisted with this project. Without the parts you've all played, it simply wouldn't have happened.

    With this report, HR Australia sends a simple message to all manufacturers and suppliers of psychoactive products; List the ingredients of your products.

    I would like to think these outcomes will provide a convincing argument towards providing an analytical service that can evaluate, scrutinize and validate all such products, ranging from health to pharmaceuticals to everything that lies in between.

    [Edit: Corrections - Ethylcathinone incorrectly reported as Metamfepramone, 2-Fluoromethamphetamine incorrectly reported as 4-Fluoromethamphetamine. Edited relevant text, p_d]
    Last edited by phase_dancer; 05-02-2010 at 08:45.
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    Bluelighter
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    Unfugging believable...designer Cat! No wonder those caps smell like feline excretions...

    And no wonder people are eating so many...
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    Bluelight Crew Samadhi's Avatar
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    P_d: Absolutely stellar effort.
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    Bluelighter mushi mushi 88's Avatar
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    Hey this is going to be a stupid question but what exactly are Neo-Doves? Are they some kind of stimulant or something like that?
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