• LAVA Moderator: Mysterier

SO Photography Contest Discussion!!

Cool, SA. But please see the last paragraph I just added to my post. Does that change things any? How to reconcile displaying the photo one captures, such that it is still representative of the scene, with allowing more adjustments which could make it easier to make the photo look much better than what was was originally captured? (despite the fact that I said earlier you can't make big improvements to a bad photo in post-processing, which I still believe)

Also, I don't want to misrepresent felix's position. I am probably more in agreement with atlas about allowing more post-processing than I am with felix, who I think favors fewer.

However it comes out, I look forward to participating in the future. :)
 
Johnny1 said:
Cool, SA. But please see the last paragraph I just added to my post. Does that change things any? How to reconcile displaying the photo one captures, such that it is still representative of the scene, with allowing more adjustments which could make it easier to make the photo look much better than what was was originally captured?
That's why felix got this thread started, IMO, for everyone to come to some sort of a decision of what level of editing, if any, was going to be acceptable going forward. I fully appreciate, understand and agree with the type of detailed arguments for or against as you've posted. I've given example a few posts above of the type of argument which will be lost on me.

Definitely if you're shooting in RAW mode, you cannot avoid some sort of editing. How much though? Especially considering that RAW editing is virtually undetectable, this opens the door for mild editing of other formats as well. Again, how much?

I think the real problem here is not whether we should or should not allow editing, but what limits to set. Once the editing door is opened, it is hard to define boundaries and even harder and often impossible to detect them. That's the problem we had last time, IIRC, and of the two easiest choices - all or nothing - we picked nothing.

Leaving aside the ownership and/or knowledge of software and hardware, I'm looking to hear more opinions for and against.

edit: spelling
 
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I'd draw the line at brightening an entry. My electricity submission could've benefited from being a couple of tones lighter... but, then again, I kinda like the idea of it being a contest of who can literally 'capture' a particular moment or image on 'film'.

Post-capture manipulation kinda takes away from that purist element.
 
johnny & atlas: what is the point of shooting in RAW mode? is it cos you don't feel jpeg is high enough quality? :)
 
Im a swinging voter..........in other words, convince me either way.
 
i wish there was a contest for digital art like manipulated photos and graphic design
 
atlas said:
the software is free 8)
New, non-defective cameras are likewise widely available. And very affordable, to boot. All one needs is discipline to save that little bit of money, or a convincing sob story for the relatives to get one as a gift. Reader's Digest got it right decades ago - "Life's like that".

Atlas, I did mention, right before your post, "Leaving aside the ownership and/or knowledge of software and hardware, I'm looking to hear more opinions for and against.". So please let's. Thank you.


frizzantik said:
i wish there was a contest for digital art like manipulated photos and graphic design
Would you like to start one, frizz? There are probably others sitting in the sidelines wishing the exact same thing.
 
Hey felix, shooting in RAW gives you more latitude to get a usable photo. When you shoot in JPG mode, the camera takes the data off the imaging chip and processes it. It makes a number of decisions, such as how to set the exposure details (not how long the shutter was open and how big the aperture was, but what parts of the image are light and what parts are dark, i.e. brightness and contrast, and how this tone curve is set), the white balance, color saturation, and how much the image is sharpened. Then it uses lossy compression to generate the JPG file.

For most modern cameras, the JPGs out of the camera are excellent. The camera makes the best decisions for most shooters. You can set the camera on P mode and adjust the ISO to your liking and the result is great-looking photos right off the memory card. Or you can even set the camera to Auto and it will do everything. And the JPGs are relatively small files.

RAW files are much larger, because they haven't been compressed. And you have to do the extra step of using a program like Adobe Camera RAW (part of Photoshop), Adobe Lightroom, Apple Aperture, or one of the programs that come bundled or as an extra with cameras, to post-process the RAW photos into what you want. The benefit of this extra step, especially if you have a good computer and a color-calibrated monitor, is that you can make adjustments to the image that was initially recorded by the camera before any processing.

Setting the white balance is extremely easy, for example. Digital sensors can't tell what white is, so the camera has to guess, and the result is often a color cast, especially indoors or under clouds. I use a plastic gray card called a WhiBal, which costs a ridiculous 30 bucks USD delivered. Whenever I take photos, I try to take one of the WhiBal card at the same time. Then I can just click on the card in the photo with the WhiBal card and set the white balance to that photo, and the rest of the photos taken in that session can be immediately set to perfect white balance. Not a preset white balance such as Tungsten or Daylight, but the exact white balance that makes the colors correct. You can use any proper gray card for this; I like the WhiBal because it's sturdy and also has true black and white on it. Or, if you didn't take a gray card photo, you can find a neutral color in a photo and use that to get a good white balance.

You can also adjust the exposure to bring out shadow detail and blown highlights much more effectively than you can while adjusting a JPG, because all the data is still there to work with. I often reduce blown out highlights because I don't know yet how to adjust my shutter speed and aperture to stop highlights from being blown. I just shoot and deal with it later. It can't work magic, but you can usually get one stop of recovered blown-out whites or blacked-out shadows. The other things the camera does when making a JPG, color saturation, sharpening, and so forth, are also things you can set. All of this is done with the original file, which results in the best quality output, because you have access to all the data; the camera discards data it doesn't need to generate a JPG file based on its internal decisions.

All this sounds difficult, but it's actually very easy once you get used to the software. You can even make presets if you find you're using the same settings over and over for a given situation.
 
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SillyAlien said:
New, non-defective cameras are likewise widely available. And very affordable, to boot. All one needs is discipline to save that little bit of money, or a convincing sob story for the relatives to get one as a gift. Reader's Digest got it right decades ago - "Life's like that".

So your egalitarianism arbitrarily extends down one avenue (no image software), but tough shit if you've got better things to do than satisfy the rules for an online amature photo contest.

forgive me, but to me it sounds like you're just being inflexible for the sake of inflexibility.


1) as it stands, modest photoshopping cannot be detected by competitors and moderators, and there is no way to ascertain whether a photo actually meets the requirements or not. I believe this has already been an issue in past contests.

2) image manipulators are freely available (the GIMP) and can be run on a very very modest system. Tutorials are available freely on youtube, among other places, that teach novices how to do simple things that don't dramatically change their photos, like red-eye reduction, color correction, and other tricks that don't dramatically alter a photograph.

3) This competition is already biased in favor of people who have more sophisticated cameras: higher shutter speeds, better CCDs, DSLRs, image stabalization, extra lenses for macro photography, manual focus, et cetera et cetera.

4) Post-processing is an essential part of any photographers work these days, from novice to professional, and its been that way for over a century.

5) A poor photograph that has been embellished ad nauseum will ALWAYS lose to the person who took a better picture and did little to nothing to it after the moment.

6) There are decent photographs in these competitions that could really benefit from a modest touch up.
<3
 
SillyAlien said:
Would you like to start one, frizz? There are probably others sitting in the sidelines wishing the exact same thing.

I wouldn't mind starting one but honestly i wouldn't be able to keep running them like you run your contests.. i'd forget about it or something lol or just lag too much
 
I am in the middle because of two reasons...where do you limit the manipulations? Only to brightening/sharpening or color balancing and exposure? How do you know? I like the idea of allowing some manipulation especially if done on camera as almost all cameras these days have this capability.

I also like the idea of having a manipulation/graphic design contest however I think SO is already cluttered with so many contests.
 
for the third time, let us not forget the all important FUN FACTOR. i play here cuz it's FUN, not because it's all serious and "professional".
 
I recall a previous contest photo of a woman in a long, flowing red dress lying on a bed of grass. It was striking (also richly saturated--in post processing?). People loved that photo. But I'm sure it took work, both on the part of the photographer and on the part of the model. One could say it was a professional photo, or at least that it aspired to that level. And despite all that, I can imagine that it was also fun. :)

If I can be permitted some repetition: Someone with a good eye for subject, lighting, and composition will beat someone who's trying hard to be professional but who doesn't have as much talent. I've seen photographers on the street stop and grab a shot that I would never have thought of. It takes them two seconds and they have something that I spent all day trying to get. I walked right by that shot and didn't think of it. Sometimes I copy their shot but I never take pride in the resulting photo. So it's really quite a level playing field, even if some people are taking it very seriously. There's no substitute for talent.
 
You shoot the picture, you enter it in the contest - end of story.

All this fuckin crying and blabbering on and on about photoshopping is ridiculous. This is a photography contest - not a silly photo manipulation contest. If you want to start up a photoshop contest then go right ahead, all the power to you.

This was supposed to be a fun contest, not a ruling on what is considered "manipulation" and what isn't. Way to fuck up an otherwise easy contest where a lot of people can participate in. 8(

Not everyone has the skills to doctor up their pictures with shading, layering, blurring, etc. But most people can master the basic uses of a camera quite easily.
 
atlas said:

The make up sex was great! Thanks.
wub.gif
 
BA said:
You shoot the picture, you enter it in the contest - end of story.

did you understood the op's post ?

ill try to show you :
1435463873_03519bd4d7_m.jpg
1435463869_3c3aa0fb19_m.jpg
1435463859_cf23a3524d_m.jpg

^this is all done on my camera
( my camera is a 2007 model in the 200$ range )

so the question is (was), if i can use a function like white balance, can i use a function like color accent too?
if i want yellow to come out nicely i can put it on +1 or +2 or...up until its B&W + yellow

1427764659_9884ac07c8_o.jpg


so people are trying to reevaluate where we draw the line cuz its becoming blurry
(thanks to the progression of new technology)

personally i ain't got any problem with the rules, i just want to participate
if i wanted my own rules i would have started my own thread

:)
 
BA said:
not a silly photo manipulation contest.

btw, how is a photo manipulation contest "silly" ?

are you that much into a 35mm mentality that you feel the need to yell in red to protect your own preference?

%)
 
ninjadanslarbretabar said:
if i wanted my own rules i would have started my own thread
ten points to the first person who follows up (read: acts) on that line of thought




edit: in brackets
 
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