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COMMUNITY PROJECT - Creating an "effects profile" for psychedelics

Solipsys said:
........IMO the limit to interpreting these results does not lay in the blended median of subjectivity but in the experience of the reviewer! You need to have enough reference points to understand the meaning. Sometimes it seems tripping can give you an endless number of possibilities, though there are some categories to be found. You will have to know these categories before any of the results will ring a bell.

I couldn't agree more. This way of viewing the task creates a lovely underpinning attitude that paves the way for such a difficult and exacting project.

I know there are some folks who see this as a waste of time and effort, and their concerns are valid and noted. But to me, to pass up the opportunity to capitalise on the vast, ever-increasing, practical and subjective knowledge held by members seems a wasted opportunity.

E
 
illuminati boy said:
Below is a suggested series of ideas slightly modified from my previous surveys.......... 10. Free Form Additional Information: If you have had any extremely unusual experiences or effects from this compound (positive or negative) please enter them here:117) :

Impressive :)

Could I suggest that the words 'unique or' are added prior to 'extremely unusual.....' in the request for free form additional info.

E
 
Thanks everyone for the opinions and ideas :) I would like to know, what is the general thought about making the effects/side effects questions into a grid, with each effect having a rating scale, from 0 (effect not noted), or from 1-5 (or some number), to report on both the intensity of that effect as well as the presence? To me it seems like a good piece of additional information. But what do you think?

If you're unclear as to what I'm talking about, think of just having a multiple choice question with checkboxes to indicate the effects present vs. a grid-like question such as in the example survey I put a link to a little while back in the thread.
 
I'm still having trouble finding a full copy of the rating scale that I mentioned earlier in the thread.

It's called the 5D-ASC, or APZ scale.
 
I know there are some folks who see this as a waste of time and effort, and their concerns are valid and noted. But to me, to pass up the opportunity to capitalise on the vast, ever-increasing, practical and subjective knowledge held by members seems a wasted opportunity.

But people ARE going to use this scale or whatever it will be to identify drugs, which is very dangerous. Maybe a wasted oppurtunity, but I still really don't think this is a good idea because as stated effects vary too much- and more importantly, potency.
 
^^^I'm also concerned about the dosage confound in a survey like this. Perhaps it would be better if people rated a "representative" experience where they stated the dose they took, or a collection of experiences at that one dose.
 
willow11 said:
But people ARE going to use this scale or whatever it will be to identify drugs, which is very dangerous. Maybe a wasted oppurtunity, but I still really don't think this is a good idea because as stated effects vary too much- and more importantly, potency.

This really is a good point.
What I can't figure out is what I expect stupid people will do when they go ahead and buy unidentified substances. A harmful scenario I can think of is that people buy shit and don't have a clue what they actually got, then use a profile to quite possibly falsely identify that drug. Then they could be expected to distribute the substance under this guessed name.

I can see where this is a big problem and I weep for the fact that this kind of thing happens. The thing is: if you don't post the survey (results) people will still buy drugs and use all they can find like trip reports and random comments on all kinds of substances to make some wacky ID. Now I'd hate to stimulate false and dangerous identifications and take this as a big concern. But we have to ask ourselves: will these profiles actually make more people guess their substance or will they only be used to make the same number of guesses. Because then the issue would be: is our survey accurate enough to make these guesses generally more or less correct.

We are on risky territory here, but remember that any tiny piece of information put on the internet can change an opinion, a conclusion, a matter of life or death. Maybe it's lame to reference to the butterfly effect, but we need to examine the causality of our little project and weigh it as well as we can in the face of society. :)

addendum: Regarding varying effects and potency, there really are many factors here and some may depend too much on subjective experiences. It's alright, that is a result too - if the inherent problems can be overcome I would love to see which parameters seem to vary extremely among subjects and which parameters align in patterns! Because the former parameter would suggest it's an aspect of psychedelics depending completely on personal psychology and the latter suggests a basic factor everyone will inevitably find in a certain drug (e.g. dissociation, physical stimulation, etc.). I don't expect any results like: substance X is very likely to produce blue tinged ostrich hallucinations, but I don't expect totally random nonsense either!
 
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I think Solipsys brings up a perfectly valid point, and I also think that this project should most definitely continue.

Given all the suggestions, and formats, I think we can compile all of the input into a well-rounded questionnaire. Illuminati's Bromo-Dragonfly Q&A was particularly promising, as was Samadhi's morpho-space graph. However, the morpho-space graph indeed would have too many facets. It's an awesome concept though.

My question is, has there been a unanimous decision yet? Has there been any decision at all on whether or not to pursue this?
 
Thanks for bumping this.

Myself and some others still want to continue. In general, I am continuing, but I've been pretty busy. I think what we should do is post ideas, as specific as possible. Especially question design, etc. Take a look at my rough template on an earlier page for my ideas on where to start. I can easily put this into motion once we come up with rating scales and format.
 
Awesome. I'm very excited to hear that I'm not the only one enthusiastic about this. I'll take another look at your quiz and throw some input in.

Suggestions:
I think 4 needs the most additions. I don't know if anyone has gotten this before, but when I took mushrooms I saw rainbow-colored interference patterns in the sky, and moving rainbows surrounded by a black background for CEVs.
Also, fractals are something I hear about endlessly with LSD and other indoles.

Illuminati's Q&A was the closest thing to perfection I'd seen. If you adapt that to be applicable to any substance, that would cover it well.

On top of that I'd say add these to #4:
- Fractalling
- Geometric overlay/alpha
- Flowing patterns
- Dysphoria
- Synaesthesia (tasting colors, feeling sounds)
- Add any info you think necessary.
- Multi-color overlay/alpha
- Heaviness of body
- Lightness of body
- Lightheadedness
- Tactile hallucination (your arms are made of rubber, you feel like a marshmallow, etc)
 
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If something is to come of this intriguing project, more effort is due.
I plan on working some things out the coming while, right now I have
a comment on Illuminati Boy's survey scheme - namely Question 2:
Something like this should probably be 2-dimensional, because it's often
not as simple as 1-dimensional pleasure. I propose a 4x4 or 5x5 grid of O's or bullets or whatever those round checkboxes are called.
In the lower left there's the extreme of general and reliably constant discomfort,
in the upper right there's the extreme of general and reliably constant pleasure,
In the lower right there's the extreme of general and reliably constant neutrality / emotional flatness
In the upper left there's the extreme of alternating and thus unreliable discomfort and pleasure.
Right in the middle anything can happen, I think this would mark a sober state if I'm correct?
5x5 will probably be too complicated by the way, what do you think?
There may be more 2-dimensional questions like this, let us assign them.
 
Thanks for bumping this. I haven't forgotten... I'm just busy! Always busy...
 
On second thought, 5x5 makes much more sense to me and it would be about as complicating as a scale of 0 to 10 in a way.
At this moment I'm compiling a survey form taking pieces and bits from every valid suggestion yet which is just about all of them, I'm glad to say!
 
Creating an "effects profile"?

At the present time I don't think it would be possible to clarify (and certainly not classify) the human condition within a chart/diagram, and I guess that anything we can talk about is linked to our condition (and that's even more obvious when it comes to psychedelism which comes under our perception)

So, after 20 minutes enumerating drugs facts and possibilities, I erased my writings as I finally realised that it's always easier to consider things case by case rather than trying to englobe everything at once within a chart with columns...moreover I guess the result of the case by case considerations will be much more practical (I wonder if a chart with columns & ratings would be of any meaning, considering that 'what makes psychedelics what they are' is probably not a 'columnar' potential)

the only thing you can possibly do is a scientifical classification, which limits you to the latest science progress, that is to say to the present level of our lack of knowledge, from a scientifical point of view.

so, I'm not saying that is a shitty community project, but....ok go ahead for it! 8) =D

...anyway, at the moment I'm more obsessed (literally) with the oncoming national rare plants & cacti sale than by the matter of classification. I might think it differently once the sale will have passed and my new magic plants will have been potted up ;)
 
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You're not the first to say that and I can get that we are very limited here. So I say again that what we are pursuing is not a chart that embodies all that a psychedelic experience has to offer because it would be equivalent to making a model of the human mind. Instead, we are indeed trying to classify different substances that can feel very much alike through subjective experience and still so complex. Hopefully we will see some patterns here like a specific effect that is checked by a disproportionately large number of users. I have a feeling that somewhere in the world of psychedelia there are common factors, because a lot of people still have very similar trip reports if you look close enough. Sure the content of the trip defines it which makes it harder, but I for one am planning on going ahead for it. :)
The survey I'm busy with is 6 pages already and very detailed if I may say so. If only people will have the patience to fill it in....
When I post it, please tell me what is missing and what is redundant so we can finalize it and move to the next phase.
I really want to write a book about psychoactives and maybe I can use the profiles to make certain generalizations.
Almost done!!!!
 
Solipsys said:
........The survey I'm busy with is 6 pages already and very detailed if I may say so. ....

Wow. Well done Solipsys. As the OP who suggested the idea but didn't have the practical knowledge of surveys to get it off the ground - big thanks for making it happen =D =D

Haven't had a chance to look at it too closely right now, but it certainly is comprehensive. It will be great to watch it evolve to completion with others' contributions.

One thought in passing was to slightly increase the space allowed for the "other" category of response in each section to maybe two or three lines. I know you've added a "free flow" response opportunity at the end, but by the time that is reached some detailed specific observations might have been forgotten.

E
 
Nice, good work Solipsys. I'll think of some things to add/change, if I can. I would like to translate it into a web-based survey, as then the data would be stored in a convenient format for reporting and people would be forced to take it in a certain way. As a Word document, people could mess with it or do anything they wanted. Trust me, respondent error is a big problem in the world of statitical surveys.
 
I've adjusted the 'other' lines, good suggestion. I've gotten valid comments that Word surveys are a pain in the ass which they are - this is meant as no more than a model. Let's just wait for some other argumented opinions so we will have an idea as when to escalate our little project.
Xorkoth: if you tell me what software to use to make a web-based survey I'd be more than happy to give it a try already, especially since you're busy!

I also received a comment that this was all done already, I suspect Illuminati Boys version is meant? Can anyone tell me if that survey is as comprehensive as what we are dealing with? I found that he posted results on lycaeum forums but the links seem like they're dead...
I would very much like to see both his this survey and the results, so that we have a clue if most of the work has already been done or if we still have new territories to cover!
From what I read there were far too few responses for rare chemicals, if we continue I suggest we leave the survey open for response for a very long time. Surely eventually we will see enough results for first acid and mushrooms, then stuff like 2C-B and MDA, then 2C-E and 5-MeO-DiPT, etc. We'd have to constantly update our results, and meanwhile keep feeding new responses into the statistical machinery... we will need all the advertisement we can get. Post all over the net, mouth-to-mouth, get as many people who have been involved with psychedelics and especially unresearched ones to know of it's existence. I wonder what the future will bring...
 
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