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new suboxone pill

Look at this brutality:

fatal_car_accidents_0124.jpg


We could save 40,000+ lives a year - all we need is the war on cars!


Or how about this:

starving_children.jpg


Isn't about half the world starving right now? While us Americans get nice and fat. We could save millions of human lives, all we need is a war on overeating!

Of course, neither of these matter? Just drugs. The war on drugs. Legalize drugs and the world shall heal itself.



My priorities are straight. I sleep well at night.
 
People end up shooting a lot of drugs. Lots of them.

I obviously have not tried them all, nor am I about to, nor am I a fan of repeating some of the ones I have tried.

But that doesn't mean just because I'm not a fan of it people don't deserve access to sterile ampules of whatever they want.

I guess a lot of the people in OD are hardened opiate addicts - and they have become disappointed in the way their government/society is and has become. Therefore they've acquired a hardened, "I don't care about others" attitude in life. This isn't conducive to living in general - but alas, why would any of you all choose to not allow people the absolute safest way of using drugs? Why do you think you as a person don't deserve that for your own life?

Do you think that the government knows better than you, or do you think if you could go to a store and buy an ampule of heroin your life would be over before you know it?

I mean really - do you all lack any ounce of self control, or are you depressed and like to see others in the same fashion? What is it?

Look at this brutality:

fatal_car_accidents_0124.jpg


We could save 40,000+ lives a year - all we need is the war on cars!


Or how about this:

starving_children.jpg


Isn't about half the world starving right now? While us Americans get nice and fat. We could save millions of human lives, all we need is a war on overeating!

Of course, neither of these matter? Just drugs. The war on drugs. Legalize drugs and the world shall heal itself.



My priorities are straight. I sleep well at night.

You can't discontinue car manufacturers and you can't stop people from driving. But, you could stop people from using drugs in an unsafe way rather easily.

Plus, the whole starvation thing - that's not a domestic issue. Drug abuse is a domestic issue and has affected more people's lives directly who are on BL than not.
 
I know people still will suffer, but why not minimize the harm people are GOING to end up doing to themselves by supplying ampules of ALL drugs people IV (not just buprenorphine - obviously) so people have the least complications in life?

Yes but this logic should not transcend into drugs that are supposed to help people get off of IV drugs. Its a valid argument for drugs in general, but bupe is not a drug that is widely abused and definitely should not be made easier to abuse as well as being used in a ROA that is a trigger for people to relapse by using the needle.

This logic is the same as saying "well lets give IV heroin addicts access to IV fentanyl so they get off of the dope." A replacement for an illicit addictive substance like heroin should be clear of all triggers, including the needle. The goal of substance replacement should be that the user takes something that will somewhat imitate the original substance, get rid of WD, but not remind them of their use of the original drug. And thats what IV bupe would do.

Yes people will try and shoot anything, but if IV heroin addicts who are really trying to come clean using bupe, have the option of IVing, this would clearly compromise their sobriety.
 
^ Good post. You said it better than I could have.


_________________________


To continue the analogy, it'd be easier to stop people from driving than from using drugs. Cars are big. Drugs are small. I could make my own drugs if I wanted. I sure as hell couldn't make my own car.



And yeah, "the whole starvation thing," as you called it. Its actually a domestic and non-domestic issue. But the ones in the picture - the non-domestic ones - who cares about them, right, they're in Africa... So its cool if they starve to death, for reasons completely out of their control, but someone who chooses to pump his body full of drugs should have everyone bending over backwards for them to give them injectable medication because their love for needles (their choice as well) makes them want to shoot their medication instead of taking it the way everybody else does? Am I the only person who sees how out of line that is?
 
I really don't think providing ampules of buprenorphine would compromise their sobriety.

Really - what will compromise people's sobriety - is the fact that they can go score dope and shoot that instead.

I guess if you're "ignorant" ampules of Buprenex would make buprenorphine "easier to abuse" but, in all reality, why is Suboxone "hard" to abuse? You can prepare a shot of it in under 5 minutes. Really. 5 minutes.

Providing ampules to people who are going to shoot Suboxone regardless provides a healthy alternative to shooting Suboxone. That's all it does.

If people don't have the will power to stay sober because of an ampule of Buprenex, it is likely they wouldn't have stayed sober to begin with - there are many other more euphoric opiates out there that are also in ampule form, or in easy to prepare for injection form (powder heroin) - and for most people, IV buprenorphine does not have a rush or "high" that some people get (who typically have low/no opiate tolerance).

The fact is JC - everyone is bending over backwards for people who are going to be injecting their bodies full of drugs due to the way it currently is. There is a tremendous medical bill that other people typically end up paying - people who pay lots of money for drugs they inject certainly aren't going to have money to recover once they injure themselves.

I haven't worked in a hospital, like you JC, so maybe I'm wrong in assuming this - but if someone shows up and has shot into their artery, aren't you going to treat them - even if there's no conceivable way they can pay you back? Am I wrong? Do you turn people away - even if they're bleeding all over the ground in front of you - because they have no money?

How about people who go running to the ER screaming about pain - they get a shot of hydromorphone - then when you turn your head, they've disappeared? Clearly someone else paid so a junkie could get a fix. And, they'll be at a different hospital tomorrow - you and I both know that. The difference is - if you legalized opiates (including ampules for injection) - there would be a lot less outstanding medical bills that are never going to get paid.

Who pays for those bills that never get paid? Surely it's the people who actually do pay their medical bills - they have to pay more to cover the people who can't afford medical services.

Am I right, or am I wrong JC? Would the hospital go bankrupt so you and me don't have to pay for other people's unpaid medical bills - or would our medical bill just be a little bit higher so it all works out in the end?

I'm fairly confident you know the answer to that question.
 
I really don't think providing ampules of buprenorphine would compromise their sobriety.

Really - what will compromise people's sobriety - is the fact that they can go score dope and shoot that instead.

I guess if you're "ignorant" ampules of Buprenex would make buprenorphine "easier to abuse" but, in all reality, why is Suboxone "hard" to abuse? You can prepare a shot of it in under 5 minutes. Really. 5 minutes.

Im really not going to argue this, but you should consider "convenience" and "risk." You give a person a pill and tell them to put it under their tongue for the desired effect. Yes, some people will think about slamming it, but generally most people will be unsure of whether it is possible and others will not know how.(Do I heat it, what do I add etc.) Moreover, it takes time. Yes 5min as you say is not long. But it is long enough for someone who isn't sure if they can even inject the thing to say "fuck it, i'll put it under my tongue."

You give people the convenience of an ampule, not to mention the safety and ease ability, and the fact that the only way you use ampules is by injecting them. And they will be more prone to use the needle. (If its an option).

More people will inject something if it is easy and prepared in front of them, rather than having to manipulate a pill in order to do it. If you don't agree with this statement then I have nothing else to say on the issue. By giving recovering addicts the means, accessibility, confidence and safety to inject bupe in ampule form, you are walking a thin line between giving them straight dope...
 
By giving recovering addicts the means, accessibility, confidence and safety to inject bupe in ampule form, you are walking a thin line between giving them straight dope...

I see why you would think that...I don't think that it's at all like that.

However, I think giving addicts dope would be a better idea than not allowing them it legally at all - some people don't respond well to methadone or buprenorphine. Some only respond well to one or the other. Why would it be such a horrible thing to give addicts a "sure thing" (like a hydromorphone implantation which was actually being studied for maintenance - tchort mentioned it somewhere) versus limiting them to methadone or Suboxone - hence having many people relapse?

Other countries have had positive success with prescription heroin for addicts in the past - I don't see why people think the idea is "wrong" or "bad".

Ultimately, if you want to quit dope, you will. There are resources out there for those trying to quit. However, just as easy as it is to find help - you can find drugs. They are always going to be out there. It would be better to legalize the whole process so people don't have to risk their lives, their freedom, and their health in order to continue a drug dependency?

There aren't treatment programs with success for every drug unlike heroin (which has had methadone and Suboxone, plus a few others with less success) - why shouldn't those people get to use those drugs? When you illegalize something you force it into the black market - it becomes an expensive commodity, and the few people who will still seek it out are forced to become criminals to support their habits in a number of different ways.

It would make a lot more sense to open clinics for drug addicts - clinics with medical supervision, for instance, would be a lot safer than what goes on today.
 
Just so CH doesn't get tag teamed I'd like to say that I support his opinions. Out of sight out of mind just bites you in the ass
 
Without quoting aton of the above posts Ill just say that yes giving Herion addicts a injectable drug as a maitence tool may incurage behiavior some people might call questionable.......... but Oh no!! dont let the junkies get off on it keep them under your control and at arms lenghth, the last thing we want is for them to kinnda get an endorphine rush....gasp!

Anyway,a Heroin/opiate subtitute, is a substitute, is a substitute. some just work better than others and bupe is good. I wouldnt(and havent) wanted to shoot an orange slug anyways....... a clear solution is something else.
 
I really don't think providing ampules of buprenorphine would compromise their sobriety.

Really - what will compromise people's sobriety - is the fact that they can go score dope and shoot that instead.

To begin with CH, I respect you, but it seems like you are just spouting out random bullshit examples that are taken way out of proportion. I really don't even know where to begin with when pointing out these errors and to be honest, I don't think that it would do any good to point out where there are contradictions in what you are saying about legalizing drugs because nothing is going to change your opinion about the subject or any other subject. It's hard to believe that you are so opinionated about this. You are at the point of replying with a lengthy post of meaningless verbiage to each and every person that disagrees with you. Judging by some of your posts, I know that you IV your daily dose of bupe. IV'ing is just another addiction that a lot of addicts have to overcome and by allowing sublingual use of a pill helps a great deal of people get away from that lifestyle. If someone wants to IV their dose then that's great, but not everyone does. I know I sure as fuck didn't want to IV my bupe each and every single day.
 
I'm kinda suprised more people dont agree with the cap. Sure if instead of suboxone we gave out amps of bupe to everyone, it would probably make matter worse. But I think that if a person who is on maintnence gets bored and think, "i'm gonna shoot there fuckers", in the interest of harm reduction they should be able to go to the drug store and get something more suitable to that ROA. I mean, if some one goes into rehab, and hears the pro's of subs and is given proper guidence and help to break his addiction, and he still decides to go get the amps and shoot it, its still gonna be safer than doing street dope, and hes probably not ready to make a full recovery and will need additional help to break his addiction to the needle. Atleast he will be retained in treatment and in contact with the people who can help. This is not even considring legalization, just in a current treatment scenario. I see heroin maintence as a similar thing. Its just too complex an issue, everybodys opinion make sense too me in ways, its 100 of years of traditions and cultures and laws that have us programmed the ways we are as a society, and changing that involves as many details as pondering the size of the universe.
 
To begin with CH, I respect you, but it seems like you are just spouting out random bullshit examples that are taken way out of proportion. I really don't even know where to begin with when pointing out these errors and to be honest, I don't think that it would do any good to point out where there are contradictions in what you are saying about legalizing drugs because nothing is going to change your opinion about the subject or any other subject. It's hard to believe that you are so opinionated about this. You are at the point of replying with a lengthy post of meaningless verbiage to each and every person that disagrees with you. Judging by some of your posts, I know that you IV your daily dose of bupe. IV'ing is just another addiction that a lot of addicts have to overcome and by allowing sublingual use of a pill helps a great deal of people get away from that lifestyle. If someone wants to IV their dose then that's great, but not everyone does. I know I sure as fuck didn't want to IV my bupe each and every single day.

I never said that "Buprenex should be the only formulation of buprenorphine" either though - do you people really think I would get rid of Suboxone all together and only have Buprenex ampules for you all?

You all could still orally dose it with an oral syringe and get better BA through adding a tiny bit of alcohol...

But still, I never said "let's get rid of Suboxone and Subutex!" - I only think Buprenex should be an option for those who are still going to shoot the pill formulations, to reduce potential harm from doing so.
 
I'm kinda suprised more people dont agree with the cap.
I'm not surprised; here's why.

addiction to the needle.
If Buprenex were available, alongside Suboxone and Subutex (which, really, Subutex is not an option for many addicts living in the US who have doctors unwilling to prescribe it to them - where it should be because some people go through rather negative side effects to Suboxone and not Subutex) - a lot of people currently on Buprenorphine Maintenance Therapy (BMT) would fear using needles again.

A lot of people have a hard time with drug addiction, let alone a needle addiction. I, myself, am not addicted to shooting up - I don't have desires to use the needle for whatever I can - I actually preferred snorting heroin to shooting it. Also, I only found heroin addicting - no other drugs. Furthermore, I have been clean from heroin for over 11 months now and haven't had a craving for it in forever.

Hence, if Buprenex were an option for me, I would not have a problem with using it responsibly.

I do, however, understand many people would have a problem with using it responsibly. I know that they would. However, if you limited people ampules based upon whether or not they had a needle addiction, you would still have people shooting dope, and whatever other pills they get (ambien, ritalin, concerta, OC, adderall, the list of pills people will shoot due to a needle addiction goes on and on...) - hence why they should be available - to help save people's lives and their health.

Expending people's health due to unavailable access to things like condoms or needles or proper ampules (instead of dangerous pill formulations which contain things like talc, microcrystalline cellulose, silicone dioxide, etc) only hurts the medical system treating all these people, and it only hurts the people themselves.

Creating a nation of medical patients is a great priority if you're someone making money off of all of this, but it's NOT a good idea if you're the person becoming the patient as a result of all of these things!

The main reason people are like "omg captain I can't believe you'd even suggest we should even be allowed to have Buprenex" is because people think most adults wouldn't have the cognizance to responsibly use drugs for injection.

There will always be individuals too irresponsible, too reckless, and too unconcerned about their own life that tragedies will happen. However, if people are intelligent enough to help out their own life by utilizing healthier options (using a midazolam ampule instead of shooting Dormicum tablets, for example) - they should be allowed to do so.

People also disagree with me because they get used to the way things are and they don't like change. Many people are desperately afraid of change.

There are probably other reasons as well, but those are two I'll venture forth as possibilities.
 

I don't have desires to use the needle for whatever I can - I actually preferred snorting heroin to shooting it. Also, I only found heroin addicting - no other drugs. Furthermore, I have been clean from heroin for over 11 months now and haven't had a craving for it in forever.

Hence, if Buprenex were an option for me, I would not have a problem with using it responsibly.

....hence why they should be available - to help save people's lives and their health.

People also disagree with me because they get used to the way things are and they don't like change. Many people are desperately afraid of change.


Its fine that YOU don't have desires to use needles, only snort, use safely ect. This is really not the issue at hand. You have been clean and have been doing great for a long while now. This is a great step forward for you and I applause you for it(im not being sarcastic I really think you are moving in the right direction CH). However, YOUR mindstate and that fact that you can control your use and ROA are mute when it comes to this argument. It isn't about how you prefer to use opiates, nor is it about your willpower. It is about how the general public will react(use, abuse) this type of buprenorphine.

An injectable form of bupe will not save peoples lives! Bupe helps people get off of dope and in essence "saves peoples lives." It is effective because it is a substitute and doesn't get addicts high when used accordingly, but lets them stave off withdrawals and feel at "baseline." A major reason for the effectiveness is it disassociates users with the needle.

People are not disagreeing with you because this is something new and different. People are disagreeing because the one thing that addicts do not need is another excuse to use the needle. Yes people will inject bupe. This cannot be avoided. BUT, the % of people who do inject this drug, with the mentality that they want to clean up and stay off of dope is very low. One of the reasons why bupe is effective is because it mimics heroin, but with a different ROA. Giving recovering addicts the means to safely inject bupe, which can get you high is beckoning recovering addicts to slip back into their old ways.

I know you wouldn't have a problem with this new formula and some others would not as well. However, when it comes to the general population of addicts trying to stay clean this would present a problem. This isn't about change, or something new, and it isn't about biases towards needles. This is about triggers and eliminating factors that lead to relapse.

Injecting a substance that is helping you to get off of dope is blatantly associating recovery with the act of using opiates. Clearly you, and/or others here can see this would be a problem.
 
I am a big proponent for opiate replacement therapies and I think more drugs should be available to doctors trained in the area of addiction. It shouldn't be just limited to bupe and 'done. However, I certainly don't believe any responsible doctor/clinic should ever continue to encourage IV use. My interpretation of harm reduction is very different than yours, CH. I think that IV use should absolutely be discouraged and it would be foolish to have prepped shots for addicts. In order to lower the number of people harmed by IV use, doesn't it seem more reasonable to get people to STOP IV'ing drugs vs. making safer drugs to IV? You have to treat the problem at the root cause. Suboxone and methadone get people to stop being fixated on the needle and stops the thoughts of redosing several times a day (long half-life). It would be terribly irresponsible to support legal shooting galleries for the sake of harm reduction because IV drug use is so dangerous (HIV, Hep C, damaged veins, circulatory problems, impure dope, etc. etc.). People need to get off the needle. Sure, we all love our drugs of choice and wish it was legalized and handed to us on a silver platter. However, the goal of replacement therapy should be to help reduce crime, ensure the addict's safety and help them become productive members of society. We at Bluelight have a very skewed position when it comes to drugs and morality. I would bet the vast majority of non-drug users would NEVER support IV drugs as a form of ORT and have a hard time supporting ORT in any form as it is. We're not going to get anywhere trying to garner support through legislation if we ask for something as outrageous as IV drugs for addicts. JMO.

Capt. H: Even though I disagree with you on this issue, I do want to congratulate you on being 15 months clean from heroin. You're doing a fantastic job both as a moderator and supporter of buprenorphine. God speed to you, man.
 
I don't understand why they don't just make the pill a little easier to break down and shoot if one was so inclined, without ever speaking a word of it to anyone. That way, the people who want to get clean and get better, who know that just putting the pill under their tongue will get them where they need to be, these people can get better with the drug. There are still going to be others that are going to inject it no matter what, especially people who buy the drug off the streets, and I think when you're making a pill that will probably be abused through IV use, you should take care to make the pill as safe as possible to be given IV.
 
^If that was directed at me, I never said I supported IV drug use. I just said that some people are going to shoot the pills, given the nature of the drug, so don't put things in there that are really bad to inject.
 
You said that they should make a pill easier to break down and shoot. I don't think any pharmaceutical company is going to go to great lengths to make a drug easier to shoot because it's not good for you to shoot drugs, period. If anything, they take an active stance against IV use by using polymers that gel up. I guess it's just an anti-drug abuse mentality.
 
i wish it came in all different flavors like skittles, and that it didnt taste like shit.
 
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