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Kratom and Withdrawals

Slid

Bluelighter
Joined
Jan 16, 2007
Messages
150
Is it possible to take too much kratom?
Example- If you were in opiate withdrawals and didn't really feel anything besides some fair relief is it a bad idea to just keep taking it constantly?
 
Taking too much can be bad, but IME you just puke your guts out on an oversdose of kratom. I guess it depends on if you take it as a tea or in concentrated form. Also, if you're used to opiates/opioids, it will be very hard to overdose on oral kratom. If it helps, I don't see a reason not to use it.
 
^Being an opiate, is it not 'dependence forming' at least?
 
kratom like every other opiate CAN be habbit forming.. but when you're at the point where you're chasing away w/ds with kratom you shouldn't have much to worry about in that department(i've been there.)
 
I don't care what anyone says kratom is not an opiate, and contains no opiates.

it contains an alkaloid with some affinity for opiate receptors.
 
Kratom contains many alkaloids including mitragynine (once thought to be the primary active), mitraphylline, and 7-hydroxymitragynine (which is currently the most likely candidate for the primary active chemical in the plant). Although structurally related to yohimbine and other tryptamines, its pharmacology is quite different, acting primarily as a mu-opioid receptor agonist. It also shares some adrenergic receptor activity similar to that of yohimbine. Kratom also contains alkaloids found in uña de gato, which are thought to play a beneficial role on the immune system and lower blood pressure, as well as epicatechin, a powerful antioxidant also found in dark chocolate and closely related to the EGCG that gives green tea its beneficial effects. Other active chemicals in kratom include raubasine (best known from Rauwolfia serpentina) and some yohimbe alkakoids such as corynantheidine.

Kratom has many potential medicinal uses, for example as a low grade analgesic comparable to codeine or propoxyphene, as a cheaper and potentially much safer alternative to methadone, and as a source of other chemicals with a wide range of beneficial activities which could be isolated from the psychoactive constituents.

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kratom
 
Bump!

Im really wondering if anyone has had any negative effects with using excessive amounts of kratom during withdrawals.....
 
haribo1 said:
^Being an opiate, is it not 'dependence forming' at least?

Sure, it'll probably cause dependance. But I'd like to believe that taking it orally as a tea could help with withdrawals. It tastes foul as a tea, and it's legal. If it dampens negative symptoms of withdrawal, I think it's a good alternative to use for some time until one can quit completely. Also, the switching of the drug can be beneficial in a psychological sense.
 
I understand the dependence issue (clearly). I just wanna make sure treating withdrawal symptoms with kratom does not have some sort of ceiling like tramadol for example. Please do not respond to this thread with basic info kratom.

I want to know if anyone has had experience (bad or good) with kratom to treat opiate withdrawals.

More specifically if anyone has had a negative experience with VERY high doses (50-100 grams into tea for one dose) of kratom WHILE WITHDRAWING FROM OPIATES.
 
I recently threw out the rest of my kratom and decided never to touch it again. Not going into a lot of detail, but lately I've been using (legal) stimulants on & off, and also kratom on a regular basis. IMHO, the kratom has f*cked me up in more ways than stimulants ever have. Among other things, it's interfered with REM sleep (and getting to sleep in general) to the point where I now have a sleep disorder & can't sleep without taking crap that would stun a rhinoceros. I also feel kratom has messed with my brain chemistry (admittedly in association with stimulants) to the point of constant mood instability and depression. Stims never did that alone, it happened when I started using kratom again.

Not saying it will affect everyone this way, but long-term it seems to mix particularly badly with stimulants and will probably screw you up bigtime. In fact, at least in my case kratom has mixed poorly with just about everything.

By itself, heavy use does result in physical addiction, and also a tendency toward apathy & just sitting around all the time doing nothing... very similar to heavy opiate use, only weaker withdrawal symptoms. I'm not messing with the stuff anymore, long-term it's done nothing but f*ck up my life.

P.S. for use to help w/d from opiates? Sure, if you only use it for a short time and start tapering almost immediately. Otherwise you just trade one dependency for another, and maybe in some ways kratom is even worse.
 
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just buy some high grade crushed leaves and add about a half oz in boiling water....then strain and enjoy....
the first time i tried this it was AMAZING...i was in full blown W/D's and it COMPLETELY deminished all of my symptoms
but cause of the stimulating effect it was kinda hard to fall asleep
 
50-100 grams is a hell of a lot of kratom. I dunno how that would affect an individual with tolerance to opiates. I'd guess there might be some bad side effects stemming from the different pharmacological profile of crude kratom compared to pharmaceutical opioids/opiates, but this is really just speculation. I'd recommend you to start lower, like 15-25 gr, and see where that takes you. It's easy to add some more if that's not enough.
 
It turns your skin black apparently...

[edit]

PHYSIOLOGICAL EFFECTS

Long term addicts become thin, their skin darkens, particularly in the face on both cheeks which gives an appearance similar to a hepatic face. Dryness in the mouth is common as well as frequent micturition and often constipation. Some mention that the faeces are black and tend to be small in shape similar to goat faeces (Norakarnphadung, 1968). Withdrawal symptoms include, for example, hostility, aggression, flow of tears, wet nose, inability to work, aching in the muscles and bones, jerky movement of the limbs. These are all typical symptoms of kratom addicts.
KRATOM PSYCHOSIS

There were five cases of kratom addiction revealing psychotic symptoms; these had been seen by the author in the last year (1974) in the outpatient department. Initially three cases were suspected of having kratom psychosis on the basis of their history of addiction and their general appearance and on psychiatric examination.

Case 1: A 55-year old Thai subject had begun eating kratom at the age of 20. His complaints were convulsions and mental confusion over the past few weeks. He was thin, his skin had become dark, particularly in the face on both cheeks, and it had an appearance similar to a hepatic face. Clouding of consciousness, experiencing of delusions and hallucinations were clearly evident.

Case 2: This 32-year old Thai was a labourer. He had begun using the kratom leaf daily at the age of 22 and had combined his kratom addiction with alcohol consumption for the past two years. He was confused and experienced persecutory ideation. He was admitted for two weeks; the result of the treatment was satisfactory.

Case 3: This 31-year old Thai was a married labourer who had begun eating kratom when he was 14. He complained of dizziness and headaches. He experienced hallucinations, delusion and confusion.

Only case 2 was admitted to the hospital, where major tranquillizers and supportive treatment were given. Cases 1 and 3 were out-patients, treated with major tranquillizers.

Cases 4 and 5 were psychotic patients. They had been multiple addicts, combining the use of kratom with alcohol, amphetamines and heroin. There were two cases of schizophrenia who had a history of kratom addiction and who were still users. While they were limited in social activity, they were good workers. None of them has relapsed during the past 10 years.
http://www.erowid.org/plants/kratom/kratom_journal3.shtml
 
garuda said:
I don't care what anyone says kratom is not an opiate, and contains no opiates.

it contains an alkaloid with some affinity for opiate receptors.

What is your definition of an opiate? Mine is 'a natural compound that agonizes the opiate receptors'. Do you mean it's not a phenanthracine-type opiate?
 
Hairbo: Partial crossover receptor affinity[ies] at CERTAIN dosages do NOT qualify subatances as opiates/opioids. However there ARE other parameters that do allow people to accurately qualify a substance.

One is the Morphine Rule, which if a substance qualifies under any of the 4 components qualifies it, and Kratom and Mitragynine fail it.

Another is antagonist activity. Kratom again fails it [Full Disclosure: In a previous thread -people really should start using the search engine here - this paticular subject was raised. I made the same statement. Another poster offered that they had seen a paper where antagonist activity was recorded. I asked them to produce it, as far as I know they never have. In further searching I reapeat my original position].

Some argue that structure is another way to prove it [very weak argument mind you as anyone who has considered Loperamide will tell you]. Kratom again fails it.

Opiate/Opioid Substitution [where an addict replaces their addictive opiate/opioid with a second substance] is another way. Kratom again fails it.


Finally, for the intial poster, there is at least one paper concerning opiate/opioid withdrawal and Kratom substituion. It involved a trial in New Zealand where detoxing methadone patients were offered [in the active study group] an unlimited supply of Kratom to ease their withdrawwals. The other test group received a placebo. the only hopeful conclusion was that Kratom SOMETIMES causes more vivid dreams. As a long term addict I can tell you that detoxing from any opiate/opioid produces such dreams as the senses slowly come back to life. Ergo, it is worthless, or perhaps worth as much as Loperamide for its placebo value as well as its limited therapuetic value in terms of withdrawal's side effects [Kratom is sometime's described as being equal to Tylenol 3s].

If people would like to know more, or examine that and plenty of other papers on ths substance, please use the search engine. The refs are posted here.
 
Kratom fucking sucks anyway, why even bother with it? no wonder i've never heard of the shit.
 
Gee we've got some real intelligence around here.... let's switch the order of the above around a little bit: "I've never heard of this stuff, let alone tried it. It f*cking sucks, why even bother with it?" 8(
 
no, its not well stated but it brings up a good point. if it was a valid replacement for opiates wouldnt have your local news have brought you a scare story by now about it? wouldnt the DEA be moving to outlaw it? maybe its my fucked up american perspective, but since it isnt illegal it cant be worthwhile. no?
 
Niandra LaDes said:
no, its not well stated but it brings up a good point. if it was a valid replacement for opiates wouldnt have your local news have brought you a scare story by now about it? wouldnt the DEA be moving to outlaw it? maybe its my fucked up american perspective, but since it isnt illegal it cant be worthwhile. no?
Well, depends what you consider valid... no, you can't take it (in the form it normally sells in), put it in a syringe & slam it like heroin. Or snort it, for that matter. It's difficult to prepare, tastes horrible and has little/no interest as a party drug.

It is something of a valid substitute for an oral opiate high however, trust me... I've been hooked on both oral oxy and hydrocodone (not proud of it) and also kratom in the past, the latter for about a year. It doesn't scale as well as 'real' opiates in terms of the euphoria continuing to increase 'infinitely' with dosage, but it also isn't as nasty to get hooked on. IMO it's much more recreational than tramadol, solidly in the recreational category in terms of enjoyment.

If I worked for the DEA I'd probably slap it into Schedule III or something, bit lighter weight than the heavy hitters but quite enjoyable. It IS in fact on the DEA's "Drugs and Chemicals of Concern" list, they've been watching it and obviously thinking about scheduling it... just haven't yet, for whatever reason. I suspect they've been too preoccupied lately with Meth & other stuff that's actually been killing people. Not to mention every spare penny of the U.S. gov't's budget has been headed to Iraq as of late... (rolling eyes).
 
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