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Oxidation: Is Food Really So Fragile?

Tritoch

Ex-Bluelighter
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
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632
Ok. No one has responded to my post yet so I just cut out the second half of the article (it was kinda lengthy and I guess it was discouraging people). If you want the full version, it's on this lengthy web page www.hinduism.co.za/food.htm

Anyway, the following is an article by one of the first pioneers of raw food. I don't care if you agree with the philosophies of raw food or not, he brings up a very interesting point here:

Oxidation
By Dr. Herbert M. Shelton

"Foods have been defined as oxidizable substances. Oxidation is the union of oxygen with another element. Oxidation may take place slowly or rapidly. Rapid oxidation is the process known as burning. Oxidation of foods takes place more rapidly at a high temperature, as in cooking, and more slowly at lower temperatures. Foods also oxidize at room temperature. When we peel an apple and slice it so that we admit the oxygen of the air to its inner structure, it soon turns brown.

This same thing happens when we peel and slice a peach or banana. When foods have been oxidized they are no longer serviceable as food. The more oxidation has taken place in a food the less food value it has. Nature protects the vital structures of plants and animals from oxidation by surrounding them with structures –skins, barks, etc. When foods are sliced, diced, cut, mashed, shredded or otherwise broken into small bits, and their inner structures are subjected to contact with the air, they undergo oxidation. The finer they are grated or sliced, the thinner the slices, the more of their inner structures come into contact with oxygen, hence the more oxidation they undergo. The longer these sliced, cut and shredded foods are permitted to stand before they are eaten the more oxidation they undergo.

Nuts that are ground in making nut butters, milk that is sprayed in the process of drying (dehydration), juices that are extracted from fruits and vegetables, are all permitted to come in contact with oxygen and undergo more or less oxidation in the process. It will be noticed that in nature milk flows directly from the producer to the consumer without coming in contact with the air. In this state, the milk has an entirely different flavour than it has after it has been in contact with the air for some time. Apples and peaches taste differently after oxidizing. Nut butters do not taste like nuts. Foods lose both food value and palatability from oxidation.

When fresh fruits and vegetables are chopped into small pieces, or when tomatoes are sliced thin, there is rapid oxidation of vitamin c. For example, when lettuce is shredded it loses eighty per cent of its vitamin c in one minute. The loss is almost as rapid in tomatoes when these are sliced thin. The same thing is true of the vitamin c in oranges, cabbages and other fruits and vegetables. Ripe tomatoes seem to lose vitamin c less rapidly than do the green ones when they are sliced. In all green leafy vegetables, the destruction of vitamin c by oxidation , when these are chopped or shredded, is marked. The mere act of grating raw apples or raw potatoes causes a complete loss of vitamin c.

Thus it will be seen that one may buy vitamin rich foods and then prepare them in such ways as to lose most of their vitamins. The grating of salads is destructive of food value. The widespread practice of making fruit and vegetable juices and drinking these also permits of great losses of food values.

It will always be best to take our foods whole or if they must be cut, cut them in large pieces. There will some loss, even in this way, but the loss will be insignificant when compared with the loss that occur when for example cabbage is shredded."
 
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Most of these "theories" are so delusional I don't even know where to start. Did this guy study organic chemistry... at...all..... ever ? Or basic chemistry for that matter? Farking QUACK or Kook... maybe a combination of the two?
 
I was hoping for a more intelligent response...one less concerned with the man and his qualifications and one more focused on the points he's making about food going bad
 
I am not sure I have the energy to give an "introduction to organic chemistry" lesson right now. Sorry. Forgive my ignorant response. 8)

Maybe he was a nice guy.. honestly I wasn't trying to attack his character. I just don’t see how the claims would make any sense to a person that has studied basic organic chemistry, or at least researched it a bit online.

What points do you think hold merit? Maybe we can break this down into sections or something. ..
 
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*shrug* other than the benefit of a greater % of antioxidants - I can't see how "oxidative" changes to food harm it's nutritive value.

There is far more to "good food" that the amount of antioxidants.

I mean, seriously, think about it - we EVOLVED into a species that preferentially EAT oxidated, cooked, animal products. It clearly wasn't evolutionaly detrimental!
 
Funny the guy doesn't talk about the biotoxins that plants make and put into fruit and veggies to deter predators. They (plants) were not good at swinging sticks... they became very good organic chemists. There is a lot of toxic "stuff" in raw veggies and fruits. Eat a few handfulls of potato leaves... I dare ya :) Thankfully, our bodies know how to deal with most of them pretty well.

Anyhow.. just a side thought.
 
lifeisforliving said:
*shrug* other than the benefit of a greater % of antioxidants - I can't see how "oxidative" changes to food harm it's nutritive value.

There is far more to "good food" that the amount of antioxidants.

He's not talking about antioxidants. He's talking about oxidation of food--food going bad. He's basically saying that food loses a significant amount of it's nutritional value before it just downright spoils. He's just being logical--it doesn't take an organic chemist to know that food spoils if it's exposed to the air for a long enough amount of time (however, when food is in vacuum containers, this doesn't happen).

lifeisforliving said:
*shrug* other than the benefit of a greater % of antioxidants - I can't see how "oxidative" changes to food harm it's nutritive value.

I mean, seriously, think about it - we EVOLVED into a species that preferentially EAT oxidated, cooked, animal products. It clearly wasn't evolutionaly detrimental!

Clearly not evolutionarily detrimental? Hah! Just take a look around you! Take a visit to a nursing home...
 
Tritoch said:
He's not talking about antioxidants. He's talking about oxidation of food--food going bad. He's basically saying that food loses a significant amount of it's nutritional value before it just downright spoils. He's just being logical--it doesn't take an organic chemist to know that food spoils if it's exposed to the air for a long enough amount of time (however, when food is in vacuum containers, this doesn't happen).

I understand what he is saying, and I believe that his ideas are on very shaky ground. What exact "nutritive value" is he speaking of? We need specifics!

I mean, bacteria "spoil" some food in your GI, but we ingest the products... Unless you're talking about heat damaged proteins, or if somehow a rotten tomato has lost all it's phytonutrients... I doubt there are any studies on that stuff yet.


Clearly not evolutionarily detrimental? Hah! Just take a look around you! Take a visit to a nursing home...

Humans evolved in large part due to the fact we consume high enegy packed food - also known as meat.
 
Gary Gnu said:
Funny the guy doesn't talk about the biotoxins that plants make and put into fruit and veggies to deter predators. They (plants) were not good at swinging sticks... they became very good organic chemists. There is a lot of toxic "stuff" in raw veggies and fruits. Eat a few handfulls of potato leaves... I dare ya :) Thankfully, our bodies know how to deal with most of them pretty well.

Anyhow.. just a side thought.

Based on your response, I'm assuming your saying that heat kills these poisons. Are these poisons found in ALL edible plants? Should no one eat anything raw? Not even fruits? Then again your saying that our bodies know how to deal with most of them pretty well...so they're not really a concern in that case then?

Raw potatoe leaves...hm, funny you had to resort to something so obscure to back up your argument. Do you also dare me to eat a few raw vegetables out of my kitchen?
 
I can't believe lettuce loses it's vitamin C one minute after being shredded.

So there's no nutritional value (apart from fibre I suppose) in salad? We should eat all vegetables whole? Is that what the author is saying?

If this is true it's pretty impractical.

:(
 
Strawberry_lovemuffin said:
I can't believe lettuce loses it's vitamin C one minute after being shredded.

So there's no nutritional value (apart from fibre I suppose) in salad? We should eat all vegetables whole? Is that what the author is saying?

If this is true it's pretty impractical.

:(
luckily, it's bullshit.

:)
 
Here's a chemist's perspective.

Tritoch said:
Oxidation of foods takes place more rapidly at a high temperature, as in cooking, and more slowly at lower temperatures. Foods also oxidize at room temperature. When we peel an apple and slice it so that we admit the oxygen of the air to its inner structure, it soon turns brown.

True - but the browning of apples occurs on the exposed surface.

This same thing happens when we peel and slice a peach or banana. When foods have been oxidized they are no longer serviceable as food. The more oxidation has taken place in a food the less food value it has.

Not really - the loss of nutrients is going to be negligible if you peel/slice and eat. Even if you loose all the vitamins the food will still have most of its food value (calories) and all of its mineral content.

Nature protects the vital structures of plants and animals from oxidation by surrounding them with structures –skins, barks, etc. When foods are sliced, diced, cut, mashed, shredded or otherwise broken into small bits, and their inner structures are subjected to contact with the air, they undergo oxidation. The finer they are grated or sliced, the thinner the slices, the more of their inner structures come into contact with oxygen, hence the more oxidation they undergo. The longer these sliced, cut and shredded foods are permitted to stand before they are eaten the more oxidation they undergo.

That is definitely true. Hence why buying ready sliced/prepared vegetables isn't a good idea. They have much lower vitamin levels, especially if they're fine sliced. This is because fine slicing increases the surface area available for reactions to take place.

Nuts that are ground in making nut butters, milk that is sprayed in the process of drying (dehydration), juices that are extracted from fruits and vegetables, are all permitted to come in contact with oxygen and undergo more or less oxidation in the process. It will be noticed that in nature milk flows directly from the producer to the consumer without coming in contact with the air. In this state, the milk has an entirely different flavour than it has after it has been in contact with the air for some time. Apples and peaches taste differently after oxidizing. Nut butters do not taste like nuts. Foods lose both food value and palatability from oxidation.

Trying to link the oxidation of flavour compounds with loss of nutrients is not a good idea.

When fresh fruits and vegetables are chopped into small pieces, or when tomatoes are sliced thin, there is rapid oxidation of vitamin c. For example, when lettuce is shredded it loses eighty per cent of its vitamin c in one minute. The loss is almost as rapid in tomatoes when these are sliced thin. The same thing is true of the vitamin c in oranges, cabbages and other fruits and vegetables. Ripe tomatoes seem to lose vitamin c less rapidly than do the green ones when they are sliced. In all green leafy vegetables, the destruction of vitamin c by oxidation , when these are chopped or shredded, is marked. The mere act of grating raw apples or raw potatoes causes a complete loss of vitamin c.

I don't believe that. However it has been shown that bagged salads have lost virtually all of their vitamin C and E. This is probably due to being washed in a strong chlorine (an oxidising agent) solution.

Thus it will be seen that one may buy vitamin rich foods and then prepare them in such ways as to lose most of their vitamins. The grating of salads is destructive of food value. The widespread practice of making fruit and vegetable juices and drinking these also permits of great losses of food values.

Not by just slicing/grating and eating. Cooking is a different matter - it will certainly reduce levels of vitamins. Juicing removes most of the fibre and increases the glycaemic index but you'll still have the vitamins.

[/quote]It will always be best to take our foods whole or if they must be cut, cut them in large pieces. There will some loss, even in this way, but the loss will be insignificant when compared with the loss that occur when for example cabbage is shredded."[/QUOTE]

I can just imagine the author tucking into a whole cabbage followed by an unpeeled banana.
 
mik82 said:
Trying to link the oxidation of flavour compounds with loss of nutrients is not a good idea.

Why not? Peanut butter does have a distinctly different flavor than just plain, roasted peanuts (the best way to judge that is with the natural peanut butter, not the commercial, and I've had both--many brands). Almond butter tastes a lot different from almonds (I have tried both raw and roasted almon butter, as well as both raw and roasted almonds).

Thanks for your good input, milk82. I really didn't think this article would endure as much criticism as it did, I mean, it's only common sense that food rots if you leave it out too long--an unpeeled banana will rot more quickly than a peeled one; a shredded leaf will decay more quickly than an unshredded leaf...

The author is simply taking this well-known "phenomenon" a step further, and saying that a significant loss of vitamins takes place during the process, and like I said before, before the food just downright goes bad.
 
shredded leaves and peeled bananas rot faster because you're doing the work of primary decomposers (bacteria and fungi) for them, not because of some kind of hyper-oxidation. Thats not an issue in peanut butter.
 
Well that's okay then. I don't buy pre-packaged vegies and bagged salads. But I do chop up a salad (from raw, whole vegies) in the morning nearly every day for work, and take it with me in a plastic container to eat at lunchtime. I was not fond of the idea that it would have no nutritional value!

I assume how you store cut vegies makes a difference too - ie. wrapped in plastic or sealed in airtight containers, with as little surface area exposed to the air as possible?
 
Tritoch said:
Why not? Peanut butter does have a distinctly different flavor than just plain, roasted peanuts (the best way to judge that is with the natural peanut butter, not the commercial, and I've had both--many brands). Almond butter tastes a lot different from almonds (I have tried both raw and roasted almon butter, as well as both raw and roasted almonds).
hmmmm. Maybe it's the copious amounts of added salt, not to mention everything else.

oxidation my arse.
 
Tritoch said:
Why not? Peanut butter does have a distinctly different flavor than just plain, roasted peanuts (the best way to judge that is with the natural peanut butter, not the commercial, and I've had both--many brands). Almond butter tastes a lot different from almonds (I have tried both raw and roasted almon butter, as well as both raw and roasted almonds).

Thanks for your good input, milk82. I really didn't think this article would endure as much criticism as it did, I mean, it's only common sense that food rots if you leave it out too long--an unpeeled banana will rot more quickly than a peeled one; a shredded leaf will decay more quickly than an unshredded leaf...

The author is simply taking this well-known "phenomenon" a step further, and saying that a significant loss of vitamins takes place during the process, and like I said before, before the food just downright goes bad.


Another reason your logic is plawed. Peanut butter doesnt taste different from peanuts because of oxidation, it tastes different because your tounge has much better access to flavanoids (stored within cell walls), than it does when you just chew it. This is a well understood phenonenom with foods like onions and garlic. Large, uncut pieces in food will taste mild, mined, chopped, or diced pieces taste spicey.
 
Firstly, to be pedantic, his definition of oxidation is way off. Oxidation is loss of electron(s) (therefore a gain of a charge) of an atom/ion in a reaction (e.g. heterolytic cleavage). This is one of the first things you learn in chemistry!

It's an interesting concept though. Where's the proof though? I thought a "doctor" would have learned to reference!

A study into this by professional chemists (Not some Hindu quack "doctor") would be interesting.

PS. I should have just posted this quote from the site for anyone in doubt about the veritably of the source:

The alarming effect which acid rock music had been shown to have on plants made Mrs. Rettallack wonder whether the nationwide craze for it among the younger generation might be extremely deleterious to their development. One longhaired musician, peering into the rock-suffused biotronic chamber, said to her; "Man, if rock is doing that to plants, I wonder what it is doing to me?"

This isn't a forum to spread your religious propaganda.
 
I'm assuming your saying that heat kills these poisons. Are these poisons found in ALL edible plants? Should no one eat anything raw? Not even fruits? Then again your saying that our bodies know how to deal with most of them pretty well...so they're not really a concern in that case then?
No, cooking them isn't going to break down all of the toxins... and yes, our bodies are good at getting rid of them so it isn't a concern..

Sorry, it was just a side thought.... an interesting tid bit toxin-phobic people tend to not know, or dismiss. Most fruits and veggies have poisons in them, potato plants are one of the more poisonous plants we get our food from.

Eating raw fruits and veggies is quite good for you. Eating cooked fruits and veggies is good for you too.
:)
 
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