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GBL/GHB, dosage, duration, withdrawals

Acidosis

Hi Synchro, F&B, C6H6 (and the rest of course :) )

Here's an interesting bit I found on a website:

"Hypoventilation (too few breaths per minute) causes excess carbon dioxide (CO-2) and carbonic acid to be retained in the body, leading to acidosis. Hyperventilation (too many breaths per minute) expels carbon dioxide from the body faster than it can be produced. This decreases the levels of carbon dioxide and carbonic acid, leading to alkalosis. The kidneys attempt to compensate by excreting acid or alkaline urine, depending on whether acidity or alkalinity is prevalent in the blood."

(read the whole thing here: http://www.bloodph.com/news5.html)

Now that at least sounds logical... G slows down breathing so I can imagine that over a longer period of time, this could lead to the noted acidosis already mentioned in the beginning of this thread.

Sooo.... what is it then that accounts for the WD effects?

-Too much dopamine stored being released all at once?
- Acidosis?
- A combination?
- Something else completely?

It was suggested somewhere else that taking 1 tsp baking soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) three times a day almost completely eliminates the WD effects. Does anyone have any xp with this?

However, 1 tsp = 4.6 gr. and that sounds a bit much if you ask me (13.8 gr/day)... Wouldn't that increase the chance for alkalosis? And what about sodium / potassium imbalance? Or high blood pressure?
(Though I remember reading a long time ago that it was never scientifically proven that too much sodium causes high blood pressure)

Your input is -as always- highly appreciated. I've got a funny feeling that there are quite a few people that would like to get to the bottom of this; harm reduction etc. :)
 
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The withdrawals from GBL/GHB are likely cause by its effects on GABA receptors and certainly have nothig to do with the acid-base balance of the body. The GABA system adopts to the permanent presence of an agonist, just like the opioid system adopts to morpine. Furthermore, it is known that chronic GBL/GHB leads to hypersensitation of dopamine receptors, presynaptic autoreceptors as well as postsynaptic receptors. So the dopamine system too needs to re-adjust to a GBL/GHB-free state.
 
Oh great, it seems that my post last night didn't make it :(

Ah well, it went something like this:

If I freely translate the info in your post C6H6, then I read that WD seem to come from irritation. That does make sense...
Having said that, this is the first time I read about it.

Do you have any figures as to the duration of the re-adjustment?

Synchro has said that for him, a 5 days on (continuous 3-4 hr redose) and 2 days off results in no WD whatsoever.
Furthermore, it was suggested that WD are greatly reduced -or even negated- when 1 tsp of sodium bicarbonate is take 3 t/d

I personally found that something like a year of abuse (resulting in a 24/7 with no off days and a 2-3 hr redose) can be quit in a matter of days with no external help from benzos.

On the other hand, there are reports that acute WD were treated with one or more doses of diazepam.

Bloody hell, this is getting confusing...

And still I'd like to find out, if only for harm reduction...
 
^^ There are better ways to alkalize than ingesting sodium bicarbonate. In fact, I do not advocate eating baking soda for any reason. ^^
 
^^ That's a fair remark, Synchro.

The baking soda is not my own suggestion, merely a hint picked up somewhere else on the web (as stated).
Personally, I supplement with potassium chloride tablets, but they do not -as we have seen- negate the WD.

Then again, perhaps I'm just not taking enough... I think I pm'ed you with a question about it, but never received a reply. That's fine though, but I would still like to know :)

How much do you recon should someone supplement with KCl in order to overcome potential acidosis?

And again: thanks for your encouraging words, I can now take some GBL without the *need* to redose! :D
 
Another bit of information on GHB/GBL withdrawal:
Eur Addict Res. 2005;11(3):152-154.

Within-Patient Variability in Clinical Presentation of Gamma-Hydroxybutyrate Withdrawal: A Case Report.

Glasper A, McDonough M, Bearn J.

Drug Dependency Unit, St. George's Hospital, London, UK.

The emergence of gamma-hydroxybutyrate (GHB) dependence in the UK is described, with specific reference to a case study of serial episodes of GHB withdrawal. Symptoms are broadly similar to those for alcohol withdrawal, and rapid deterioration into delirium is common in severe dependence. This case report reflects the variability in clinical presentation of GHB withdrawal and response to treatment, even within the same patient. It is concluded that GHB withdrawal requires vigorous clinical management, preferably on an elective basis, in an inpatient setting if dependence is severe. Copyright (c) 2005 S. Karger AG, Basel.

PMID: 15990433
Click to expand...
 
I don't know how well this would work for others, but I wanted to share this...

SWIM had an interesting way of kicking his 24/7 G habit...

Instead of tapering, counting the hours until he might redose again and dealing with panic attacks, he simply took one final dose in the evening and then went on an ecstasy party.

In the fourteen hours that followed, he did not once 'crave' for G.
There were no panic attacks, increased heartrate happens with ecstasy anyway, to deal with and he felt great.

Of course there was the normal ecstasy comedown, but with a little help from 5-htp that was quickly overcome.

Bottom line? Kicked the habit and had a great time on ecstasy as a bonus.
 
That might work for a modest habit, but if dependance is severe, your method can kill.
 
From first hand advice... I drank 1,4b every day for 3 years. About 10mls per day minimum and up to 20mls at least.

The day it was all gone I went to bed woke up and was fine. For sure I felt like something was missing but I just had a few beers and I was fine.

Did not have any withdrawals as such but of course I would have prefered some G.

I did put on some weight after stopping and I did drink a little bit more than usual. Well considering I literally did not drink for 3 years.

Had full check up after I quit G and Smoking. Seemed like Cigs never tasted the same without my G. I also had a severe diet coke habit to go with it all. 6 Litres of Diet Coke, Pack of smokes and 1,4b every day. Had more trouble kicking the diet coke than the G. No health problems, Thyroid function was fine, Liver was 100% main problem I did notice was my migraines were just more noticable. After G I find I still get em but just dont care lol.

To get my sleeping pattern back I used Mersyndol which is a calmative relaxant and a glass of red wine. Dolased is another brand you can try.
 
My personal refs...

Hi all,

I posted before in this thread.
I NEVER had any problems, before, when i quitted gbl. I have used it for several years as a recereational and sleeping aid.
BUT, last week I was hit like never before...

Due to certain, bad, things that happned in my life, I started using it every day with 3-4 hours at most between refills.
I started with 3-4 mls and refilled with 2-3 ml, and it was 24/7 for about a week...And when I started getting close to the 4 hour mark, my hands and body started trembling. I started getting panicattacks and heartbeat went through the roof. I got hot flushes and felt lightheaded, my body started to cramp up. All the recreation buzz of the gbl was all gone. I had to refill to feel normal...
It was horrible, I didn´t know really what to do.
Then a friend told me, drink ALOT of water(ae I consumed 3-4 litres), and he gave me two 10mg diazepam...After about 20 minutes all my worries ran away and my body started relaxing. I took a rest from gbl for three full days.

Now after this incident I found some errors I made that were crittical. I didn´t eat or drink enough, I redosed to quickly and I didn´t think of alternatives like alcohol or similar.


I think this thread is full of good advice and ANYONE thinking of using or is using gbl should read the tips herein.

I know I was stupid to get where I was, but reading this thread helped me alot and I just wanted to share my personal experience.

Be safe...
 
Hello People, I have been reading this post and think that GHB is none additive. You may ask why I say this. I say this because I use to sell for many many years. I have done it over and over and really do not like it because it makes me nauseous! I have seen people on it and not one was even close to being additive. Even when I stopped giving it to my people and seeing them stop cold turkey after many many years they had no effects at all. The people I made it for were hard working people most where into fitness and heath. I never had one bad event come from taking GHB or seeing anyone that did. If made correct and taken alone you will have no problem with it. I do not care what anyone says I will always say it is the person that is the problem not the drug. Take the drug away from the addict he will replace it with another drug to be additive to.
Peace
=D
 
I agree with msi23: GHB is non -addictive, maybe MILD MIDL withdrawals at most but thats it. GBL on the other hand is a different story. Mods may tell you bullshit its conversion to 99% in the bloodstream, its still not the god damn same thing. GBL is like drinking paint thinner, GHB powder has hardly any taste at all. There is a big difference, I know from experience, if you haven't had experience with either, than I advice you shut up because the majority of you are starting to sound like Trinka "blah blah There is no difference between GHB/GBL they are the same" That's bullshit and stop with the misinformation.
 
There is a big difference, I know from experience, if you haven't had experience with either, than I advice you shut up because the majority of you are starting to sound like Trinka "blah blah There is no difference between GHB/GBL they are the same" That's bullshit and stop with the misinformation.
Click to expand...

The only difference is that GBL crosses membrane barriers like the intestinal wall a lot quicker than GHB (due to the polar nature of GHB - it's a carboxylic acid). After rapid conversion in the blood by plasma enzymes, it leads to an initially higher plasma leve of GHB when compared with the same dose of GHB - most probably why w/d is more severe - you're used to a higher plasma level, although shorter acting.

That's bullshit and stop with the misinformation.
Click to expand...

Other than the higher initial plasma levels from an equal dose (weight) of GBL over GHB, they are the same drug, so it's not bullshit or misinformation. You're speaking from experience - I'm speaking from experience and years of working in pharmacology
 
As far as I'm concerned, anyone printing off information from erowid about GHB is false, since erowid seems to be anti-ghb and pro alcohol and pro MDMA. GHB does not cause respiratory despression on its own, unless taken in enourmous quantities. But 5-10 grams pure GHB is not going to kill you on its own, just put you in a heavy sleep. Not a coma like erowid suggests, thats bullshit.
 
I just recently quit GBL, and have experience with GHB, but not 1,4-BDO.

Subjectively, there were NO problems from moderate usage of Na-GHB (5-6g a time for one week straight)

GBL, however I just quit, because I realised I had a physical, but not psychological dependence problem.

I tapered down from 8-8.5ml of GBL over a week and a few days, to 0.25ml, all taken rectally, withdrawals were intensely unpleasant, chills, shaking, severe myalgia and myoclonic spasms and a hyperdopaminergic state which has so far lasted 5 days (without possibility of sleep), heart rate elevated to 170bpm, this abated quickly on treatment with 5mg chlordiazepoxide and getting a good nod on codein, along with 10mg chlordiazepoxide abated 99.9% of the knock on beta-1 adrenergic jitters I experienced.

Uggh, more or less, felt like being geeked to shit on a crack comedown, combined with a large sustained dose of ephedrine for the entire time.

I am going to attempt to convince my doctor to give a short (2-3 days) rx of a sustained release hydrophillic beta blocker if this continues at all for more than 2 days, to as all that is left, is this beta-adrenergic effect which for the sake of my heart, worries me somewhat.
 
^^^ Exactly mods, and C6H6. Proof right there, a few users so far saying no problems when quitting NaGHB, but when quitting GBL its a different story. There IS a difference. If you don't have experience with both, than don't bother posting. Jesus, and why warn me about my posts when I'm right and your wrong just because your a moderator? I thought this was harm reduction, not some kiddy 15 yearold website.
 
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