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    GBL/GHB, dosage, duration, withdrawals 
    #1
    I've been using GBL regularly for sleeping, 3.5ml and then on the 4 hour awaking 2.5ml for maybe 8 months. It helped me a lot to reduce my nightly alcohol consumption, which was my previous hypnotic.

    According to a study with Xyrem such use will not lead to significant withdrawal symptoms.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12733850

    Recently my chronic depression exacerbated, and I started to use GBL occasionally during the day, in doses of 1.5 - 2ml.

    Finally, three days ago some disaster strike me, and since I'm using GBL quite frequently in the same dosage range. It helps me quite a bit.

    My concern is that I absolutely want to avoid real hard physical dependance, the sort where I get serious withdrawal symptoms. Btw, I'm sitting on 12.5 liters of GBL, and it's legal here. So there's no immediate shortage of supply.

    My question is: how long did you take how much GBL or GHB and what was your experience on withdrawal?

    I've found two case reports on Pubmed:

    A patient taking about 181 g/day GHB for 4 months, for its euphoric and anxiolytic effects (Addolorato et al, 1999). On discontinuation of GHB, the patient showed a withdrawal syndrome consisting of high anxiety levels, tremor, sweating, tachycardia and nausea. Complete disappearance of drug withdrawal symptoms was achieved within 2 hours in the first day of treatment with diazepam 20 mg orally administered...
    http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/178/2/183

    A 43-year-old male reported using GHB for 2.5 years. The effects of use were reported as feelings of relaxation, inner well-being, increased appetite and short, restful periods of sleep. Starting doses of GHB were difficult to quantify as it is generally taken in liquid form. The patient said his dose was originally 15 ml irregularly, but had increased to 30 ml every 3 hours by the beginning of 1999. The patient reported withdrawal experiences such as feelings of panic, terror and anxiety, often with a tremor. Other autonomic features included diarrhoea.
    http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/177/2/181

    In other cases pentobarbital had to be used to control withdrawal signs:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=11719746


    The amounts of GHB consumed above sound huge to me. What's your story of GBL/GHB use and withdrawals?
     

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    #2
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    If you are consuming GBL then there are two major concerns:

    1. Blood acidosis
    2. Potassium depletion

    The third concern, dopamine accumulation, can be avoided by taking two days off per week and one week off every month. If you cannot use according to that, then you should avoid GBL entirely.

    About the acidosis --

    GBL converts to GHB in the body, and does so by borrowing a hydroxide ion from the blood. Constant use will eventually result in acidosis, a condition often associated with the withdrawal symptoms you hear about. This can be avoided three ways, and all three should be implemented:

    1. Eat foods that alkylize the blood, such as green Kamut, watermelon, and lemons. Each time you dose with GBL, one teaspoon of green Kamut can be taken to help neutralize the acidifying effect. If you add two servings of watermelon per day, the blood should remain in a slightly alkaline state, which is what you want.

    2. Regulate your dosing schedule so that you never dose at a rate more frequently than every six hours. By spacing your doses apart you give the body a chance to recover. Furthermore you will prevent the buildup of dopamine, which degrades into epinephrine and norepinephrine. This equals too much adrenaline. An excess of adrenaline results in tremors, paranoia, anxiety, and in cases where there is a huge excess, the symptoms can get severe -- hallucinations, aggressive behavior, etc. Sound familiar? That's what all the so called withdrawals are -- and they can be avoided by regulating your dosing schedule. Also, this is why it is mandatory to take two days off every week --- so you can monitor your reaction to the cessation of intake. If you exhibit no symptomology the second day, you are fine to resume intake.

    For the potassium depletion, you can take in potassium chlorate, but this is something that requires specific knowledge of how much to take. Blod tests are required to dial that in personally. Another approach is to drink white grapefruit juice daily. I find that if I add a dietary intake of 100mg potassium in the form of grapefruit juice per ml of GBL,my potassium levels remain constant (right at 3.8 - 4.0). This may work for you. Again, taking two days off per week is mandatory.

    One alternative to this is to dose only at night. You will find that you wake up after three or four hours. Now, to avoid shortening that time span, you must wait until the four hour mark to redose to go to sleep again. So if you wake up two and a half hours after your first dose, wait an hour and a half before redosing to sleep.

    This four hour rule is really the backbone of successful use. If you shrink the time frame between doses, you begin to prevent the release of dopamine, and an accumulation occurs. As it builds, the time you stay asleep diminishes. Soon you find yourself waking up after only an hour. If you redose immediately, the dopamine will not clear. Eventually you will run out of GBL and then all the dopamine will surge out, resulting in horrific symtoms. This is why people feel they are addicted. They get so nervous from this dopamine rebound (remember,it degrades into adrenaline) that htey cannot stand themselves and they dose again to feel normal. And the vicious cyucle begins. SO if you find that you are nervous when you stop, taper down now to a quit and start again when you are totally clean, but implementing the six hour break between doses (six hours allows for total elimination).

    Another thing to watch for is tolerance. If you have to increase your dose to get the same effect, you are dosing too frequently. You need to taper down until you are dosing once every eight hours, and then decrease the dose amount until it is negligible, then quit for a couple of weeks and start over with a more rigid dosing schedule.

    These simple guidelines will help prevent a horrific addiction. If you find that you cannot go without GBL for two days, then you need to stop the drug altogether, as you do not have the mental wherewithal to manage the drug to begin with. GBL addiction is a terrible thing. Avoid it at all costs.
    Last edited by synchrojet; 16-04-2005 at 01:11.
     

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    #3
    Bluelight Crew fastandbulbous's Avatar
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    Couple of things to take issue with

    GBL converts to GHB in the body, and does so by borrowing a hydroxide ion from the blood. Constant use will eventually result in acidosis, a condition often associated with the withdrawal symptoms you hear about. This can be avoided three ways, and all three should be implemented:
    It 'borrows' a whole water molecule, not just a hydroxide ion, so the net effect isn't acidosis (thats why it's called hydrolysis, because water does the splitting

    For the potassium depletion, you can take in potassium chlorate
    Potassium chlorate will stop your thyroid from functioning (it'll stop it in it's tracks) and that is a seriously bad affair that needs to be avoided. What I think you are talking about is potassium chloride. Even so, it's not a good thing to be putting into your body as high plasma levels will stop your heart (it's a popular way for psycho nurses/doctors to kill people). As the eventual metabolic fate for GBL/GHB is carbon dioxide and water (via Krebs/citric acid cycle), I can't see how it would cause a potassium depletion.


    Check info before posting, one bit was wrong, and another was plain dangerous
     

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    #4
    Bluelighter Gaz_hmmmm's Avatar
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    Originally posted by fastandbulbous
    Couple of things to take issue with



    It 'borrows' a whole water molecule, not just a hydroxide ion, so the net effect isn't acidosis (thats why it's called hydrolysis, because water does the splitting
    What do you mean by this exactly? What will happen?



    Originally posted by fastandbulbous
    Potassium chlorate will stop your thyroid from functioning (it'll stop it in it's tracks) and that is a seriously bad affair that needs to be avoided. What I think you are talking about is potassium chloride. Even so, it's not a good thing to be putting into your body as high plasma levels will stop your heart (it's a popular way for psycho nurses/doctors to kill people). As the eventual metabolic fate for GBL/GHB is carbon dioxide and water (via Krebs/citric acid cycle), I can't see how it would cause a potassium depletion.
    I think the potassium depletion comes from the fact that Na-GHB (Sodium) when used for a period may cause an inbalance in the body's sodium/potassium ratio.
     

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    #5
    Bluelight Crew fastandbulbous's Avatar
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    ^ The OH ion adds to the carboxyl carbon to give the carboxylic acid group and the H ion adds to the oxygen on the gamma carbon to give the gamma hydroxy group. NaOH is used to hydrolyse GBL as it is catalysed by the presence of an hydroxy ion. Once hydrolysed, the carboxylic acid reacts with the NaOH to give the sodium salt - a standard acid/base reaction.

    Yeah you're right about the picture w.r.t. potassium, it's an imbalance due to the excessive amount of sodium ions being absorbed (not good for kidneys/high blood pressure either), but as GBL contains no sodium ions to begin with, there's no imbalace to produce.

    C6H6 - you will get an answer from someone eventually - sorry, I can't help you with this one (just had my first taste of GBL a few days ago), but if it's not a true dependance, but merely due to excessive catchecolamine release, you could always go with a one off dose of dopamine antagonist like chlorpromazine (Thorazine, Largactil) to get you over that period
     

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    #6
    Bluelight Crew negrogesic's Avatar
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    Frorm what ive seen first hand from GHB addiction, particularly when a friend of mine got very addicted to it (and a few others did become addicted, though not to his extent). It seem in all of them, and myself as well, a very common withdrawal symtom was severe chest pain, to the extent when breathing becomes very labored, slow, and painfull. This is all accompanied and compounded with the anxiety and panic attacks.

    Luckly you have enough to do a slow taper, which seems to be the obvious answer to the solution. But as your physical tolerance may lower, its FAR harder to get your "psychological" tolerance, because its hard not to remember what the high doses felt like, and you will be chasing that high, trying to attain that same feeling. Problem with GHB is that the high has alot to do with the dose, and you simply cannot achieve the same kind of highs with lower doses. With opiates, you can trick your body to lower your tolerance, and a smaller dose can get just you as high as the big dose you had been taking before, once your tolerance is down. Unfortunately, GHB is not like this, and 5 grams of GHB (or 4ml GBL) will always be and feel like 5 grams (though of course once you have a lower tolerance from abtaining for a while, it will hit you harder). So 3g will never feel like 6g, however 6 grams can feel like 3 grams when you develop a tolerance.


    Hmmm, i didnt know that about potassium chlorate. I use potassium perchlorate when making fireworks/crackers, given it is quite a strong oxidizer. And yes, potassium chloride, which is often sold at the market as "substitute salt" is often used in combo with sodium pentothal/pentobarbital for stopping the heart for a lethal injection. Yes bananas and grapefuit are good sources for potassium, but if you want a large amount, polar bear brains are great sources for potassium, you can even OD/die from potassium poisoning by eating one of their brains, and the Eskimos found this out the hard way (i suppose all that potassium in the bear's brain its to slow their metabolism given the cold weather condition and the whole hibernation process, so they must need slow metabolism).....
     

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    #7
    Bluelight Crew fastandbulbous's Avatar
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    Aha - hope you're doing OK in your putting your body right quest (you haven't being as visible here recently). Didn't know that about polar bear brains - I know their liver contains toxic levels of vitamin A for humans. If you consider that on top of their killing capacity, I don't know why anybody would choose to tangle with one of those big bastards (they even terrified Billy Connoly, and he's from Glasgow!)
     

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    #8
    wow for being a mod, you SURE are articulate. christ, anyone else writing this drivel the thread would be thrashed and locked...
     

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    #9
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    Originally posted by JasonMontana
    wow for being a mod, you SURE are articulate.
    Gee thanks for that
     

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    #10
    Originally posted by negrogesic
    you can even OD/die from potassium poisoning by eating one of their brains, and the Eskimos found this out the hard way
    Thats bullshit. You made that up.

    Anyway, I drank GHB/GBL/1,4-B only a few times. I have not experienced withdrawal or tolerance first-hand. However, egogesic once reported getting involuntary lachrymation (unwanted tearing/crying) as a result of GHB withdrawal. I don't want to venture a guess as to why this happens but maybe someone will.
     

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    #11
    I've often wondered why taking straight GBL hits you fast and hard, and doesn't last as long as Na-GHB. When I take some GBL especially on an empty stomach, it hits almost immediately (<5 mins). When I take the sodium salt it comes on much slower and smoother, and then lasts longer as well.

    Would using just KGHB (potassium salt) be all around better for you? You would get potassium that way, i've also then heard of people using a mix of Na-GHB and K-GHB.

    As for 1,4-butanediol, for some reason, i really liked that stuff.. it came on slow and smooth like Na-GHB and then lasted quite a bit longer. Also, and i'm not sure why this would be but, when i've used 1,4-b often enough it didn't seem to cause any noticeable tolerance, when GBL causes quite a fast tolerance with me if i use it often enough.
     

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    #12
    Bluelight Crew fastandbulbous's Avatar
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    Would using just KGHB (potassium salt) be all around better for you? You would get potassium that way, i've also then heard of people using a mix of Na-GHB and K-GHB.
    Yeah, use the ratio that they use for potassium/sodium chloride in low sodium salts should prevent any depletion (or ratio in oral rehydration suppliments - before anyone asks, I don't know, you'll have to find it) or dodgy electrolyte imbalance.

    I imagine GBL comes on faster as it'll be more lipid soluble compared with the ionic Na/K salts. 1,4-BDO needs to be first metabolized (one of the OH groups to a COOH group), so that'll most probably account for it's slower onset
     

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    #13
    i was refering to everyones favorite negrogesic.
     

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    #14
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    Sorry for the bump, but I remembered this thread and UTFSE
    Originally posted by fastandbulbous
    ^ The OH ion adds to the carboxyl carbon to give the carboxylic acid group and the H ion adds to the oxygen on the gamma carbon to give the gamma hydroxy group. NaOH is used to hydrolyse GBL as it is catalysed by the presence of an hydroxy ion. Once hydrolysed, the carboxylic acid reacts with the NaOH to give the sodium salt - a standard acid/base reaction.

    Yeah you're right about the picture w.r.t. potassium, it's an imbalance due to the excessive amount of sodium ions being absorbed (not good for kidneys/high blood pressure either), but as GBL contains no sodium ions to begin with, there's no imbalace to produce.
    So are you saying that GBL usage (non-abusive levels) doesn't result in either sodium imbalance nor acidification of the blood?

    I've had a bit of GBL usage on and off recently and I'm just wondering, because all I've ever heard about GBL is "It acidifies your blood", which your paragraph seems to contradict (though with chemistry I just about remember enough of to be almost convinced with ).

    On a related note, does anyone else find that when a dose of GBL hits you (GHB less so I'd expect since it comes on slower) they experience a strong "ringing in the ears" very much like the "angangangang" nitrous gives? Only lasts for about 3 minutes and I only really experience it when I'm not listening to music (ie its quiet) but when I do notice it its so much like a nang its creepy.
     

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    #15
    Bluelight Crew paradoxcycle's Avatar
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    Question
    Originally posted by AlphaNumeric
    they experience a strong "ringing in the ears" very much like the "angangangang" nitrous gives? .



    It doesn't sound like "wawawawawa" to you?
     

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    #16
    Well, I never experienced any auditory phenomena, neither "angangangang" nor "wawawawawa".

    I also doubt the blood acidification theory. The opening of the lactone ring is a catalytic process consuming only water. Of course it creates an acid, but the body creates acids all the time during normal metabolism and can easily cope with this amount and neutralize it. And once the GBL turned GHB is metabolized to CO2, everything is back to normal.

    After about 2 weeks of 24/7 in modest amounts I'm now back to small amounts in the evening and a dose for sleeping. I had no problems with the transition, and no withdrawals.
     

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    #17
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    Originally posted by paradoxcycle
    It doesn't sound like "wawawawawa" to you?
    "wawawawawa", "angangangang", its all good Its "that noise", I just wasn't sure how to spell it
    Originally posted by C6H6
    After about 2 weeks of 24/7 in modest amounts I'm now back to small amounts in the evening and a dose for sleeping. I had no problems with the transition, and no withdrawals.
    Good to hear
     

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    #18
    Bluelight Crew fastandbulbous's Avatar
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    On a related note, does anyone else find that when a dose of GBL hits you (GHB less so I'd expect since it comes on slower) they experience a strong "ringing in the ears" very much like the "angangangang" nitrous gives?
    I thought the tv was playing up after a dose of GBL, but it turned out to be said auditory effect.

    So are you saying that GBL usage (non-abusive levels) doesn't result in either sodium imbalance nor acidification of the blood?
    Yep
     

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    #19
    Bluelight Crew paradoxcycle's Avatar
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    Originally posted by AlphaNumeric
    "wawawawawa", "angangangang", its all good Its "that noise", I just wasn't sure how to spell it
    Good to hear



    Wasn't trying to be pedantic or anything , I was just surprised I think because I assumed everyone had the same auditory phenomena.
     

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    #20
    Bluelighter Gaz_hmmmm's Avatar
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    I don't think I've ever experienced any audio phenomena from GBL, I'm not sure though as I've not had any since last october and can't remember.

    Regarding withdrawl, last August to mid October I used GBL 24/7 for 6 weeks (Kinda stupid, I know). I stopped cause I ran out, I felt slight anxiety (Which I have anyway) for around 2 days after then I was fine.
     

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    #21
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    Brain fade on the K-chlorate, I meant to type CITRATE. (Sometimes I'm a dangerous moron!) Sorry bout that one, just a bad error I didn't catch. I use it a great deal and cannot justify the error, so I'm glad you caught that one.

    About the acidosis caused by GBL --

    This is an effect that I have personally experienced and verified via blood tests. I can understand the instruction to do research before posting, but rest assured that when it comes to GBL/GHB I have done research as well as used for twelve years, and I promise that GBL will acidify your blood if used too frequently. The explanation that I proposed is not comprehensive, but it is not "just plain wrong" either. I have spoken with my doctor about this very phenomenon, and as we witnessed a specific correlation between dosage and rate of potassium depletion I can give testimony to the fact that it is a direct result of GBL consumption. To suggest that this will not occur seems to me to be a much more dangerous position.

    I understand that the goal is harm reduction. I will take your reprimand and instruction in that spirit...the chlorate thing probably means I deserve the added condescention for good measure...but I must say that it is not my most serious error about GHB. That one would have to be the time I carelessly typed Sodium Oxylate instead of Oxybate.

    That one would be deadly. So its good to have an educated set of eyes on me, and I am glad to learn here.

    Either way, I am curious as to your explanation for the acidification that I and several colleagues experienced, verified and ameliorated via the methods outlined above for years on end without incident.
    Last edited by synchrojet; 13-05-2005 at 11:08.
     

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    #22
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    Call me stupid, but I missed the logic part. Maybe you can cut and paste it for me?

    Again I ask -- what caused the MEDICALLY OBSERVED AND DOCUMENTED ACIDOSIS that I experience regularly when I use GBL for extended periods of time and do not supplement with an alkalyzing agent? This has happened three times, the last two were specifically done on purpose to see if the effect was directly related to GBL consumption. I can post blood tests and results if that would help...

    The udeniable fac t is that acidosis occurs. That is not in question, as it has been documented. Even the head of the GBL/GHB research team in Utah verified the fact on the phone for me when I asked about this effect. So my question is: WHY?

    The explanation that I proposed is reasonable: The use of a hydroxide ion from the blood. Yes, GBL is hygroscopic, but the hydroxide ion is lost forever, isn't it? Some of the water is recycled, all of the CO2 is expelled, yes?

    Forgive my thickeheadedness, but my personal experience and medical supervision have verified the acidosis -- it is NOT a myth.

    Last edited by synchrojet; 15-05-2005 at 23:11.
     

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    #23
    Bluelight Crew fastandbulbous's Avatar
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    ^ It's more likely to have something to do with the effects of GHB/GBL on the endocrine system (hormones eg HGH etc) rather than a direct acidosis, as on its own, GBL does not contribute a hydrogen ion to the body, either directly, or by removing hydroxyl ions
     

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    #24
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    Interesting. I will pursue the matter with some empirical data in the near future. Dr. Ward seems to side with the theory of a hydroxide ion from the blood, but he could be wrong I suppose. I did not major in chemistry, but my colleague who also sides with this theory did -- he is a chemical engineer now. I cannot speak with authority on this, only from personal experience, and I do not represent myself as a chemical expert. I am only repeating what those with knowledge have said to me. This includes, as I mentioned, the local head of the GHB project and several chemists. I will pass your words on to them and give you their feedback as soon as possible, as I wish to have an accurate understanding of this process.

    For those on the fence, I would opoint out that the ingestion of an alklyzing agent such as potassium citrate (or even dietary agents like watermelon and lemons) will ameliorate the acidosis, a fact which further supports the hypothesis (proven in my mind) that GBL consumption (in sufficient quantities and at a sufficient rate) directly causes acidosis.

    In any event, it is a good idea to eat alkalyzing foods regardless, as most viruses and bacteria have a more difficult time surviving in a slightly alkaline environment. As a side not, if you are slightly alkaline your muscle recruitment will be better and your strength will be noticably increased -- this is why some athletes ingest potassium citrate prior to competitions -- endurance and strength are increased dramatically (yes I have tried this too).

    Fastand bulbous -- thanks for your input. I'm not sure I agree with everything, but as I said before, I will research the matter more diligently and find a solid conclusion to present to the board for consideration.

    Anyone who would like to see my blood tests with notes can email me and I will gladly provide them.
     

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    #25
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    I replied this in the Rectal GBL thread as well, but I'm wondering if the water hydrolysis indeed occurs when taking pure GBL.

    As stated, GBL to GHB conversion is done in labs using xOH because it goes a hell of a lot quicker. Besides, it is my understanding that the water hydrolysis conversion is a balanced one (meaning: two way), so taking everything into account and add the fact that GBL for me comes on in about 15 minutes, it at least suggests something else than just the water conversion.

    Does that imply that the xOH salt conversion also takes place in the body? If so, it could account for both the acidosis and the potassium depletion...
     

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