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Discussion of potentially harmful food ingredients and additives

Which is too bad, because tap water is better regulated and more healthy than bottled water.
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4. How can I determine if bottled water is really just tap water?

Often it's not easy. First, carefully check the bottle label and even the cap -- if it says "from a municipal source" or "from a community water system" this means it's derived from tap water. Again, you can call the bottler, or the bottled water program in your state or the state where it was packaged.
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http://www.nrdc.org/water/drinking/qbw.asp

I think it is fair to say that the majority of the bottled water is safer than tap water, according to this site too, but it is possible to know for sure, if you want.
 
Considering the amount of junk food many people eat, I think there would be a rather alarming problem if that were true.
 
Fats are solid at room temperature, yes, but oils are not. And since oils are cheaper, and a byproduct of all kinds of agricultural processes.. its more cost-effective to hydrogenate the oils so that they are solid than it is to get more fat.
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Uhhh...I don't think you are getting my point. Coconut and palm oils are NATURALLY solid, are fairly cheap (though not cheaper than GMO soybean oil which is dirt cheap, and which is what most companies hydrogenate). I was referring to these oils as 'fats'. It's semantics.

The thing is, packaged food full of hydrogenated oil, isn't cheaper than nonhydrogenated equivalents.

, I think there would be a rather alarming problem if that were true.
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Yes, it's called obesity. And it's really, really high in this country, and in other countries that consume a high level of hydrogenated oil.

Also, regarding shelf life, foods without hydrogenated oils last a reasonable amount of time. It is disturbing that foods would sit on shelves for years before being consumed.
 
Show me some data that says that foods produced with coconuts oils (aren't they particularly bad for you, as far as oils go?) would be cheaper than foods produced with hydrogenated oils, such as those extracted from agricultural byproducts (such as corn stalks).

Yeah, obesity is a problem, and yeah we eat hydrogenated oils. But even a 4th grade science teacher will tell you that correlation does not equal causation. Maybe the countries that don't use these oils are skinnier because they are having a harder time feeding their population? I don't think you could prove thats whats maing people fat. I eat a lot of them, and I'm very lean.

Making foods so that they can be stored for years doesn't mean that they are, neccesarily. Its called being prepared. Even so, I'd be more concerned about preservatives than I would hydrogenated oils.
 
The thing is, packaged food full of hydrogenated oil, isn't cheaper than nonhydrogenated equivalents.
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Thats what I was refferring to, not the oil price itself.

I doubt they will impose any real regulations on levels of the stuff any time soon, if at all. I don't think there is enough evidence to support doing so (is there any?). Plus there would be all the lobbying groups, etc.

People have been throwing fits about preservatives for a while now, and nothing has changed there either.

I think everyone is just going to have to get used to the idea of modified foods, espcially GM stuff. Monsanto isn't going anywhere, and they have a lot of farmers by the nuts.

Some people will be able to eat 'natural' foods, but the fact is that there are a lot of peopel to be fed, and a lot of profit at stake. If swapping a few genes here, or putting a few hydrogen atoms there will make food taste the same for a few extra months, or yeild a little more grain per sq ft... people are going to do so.
 
Here comes a ton of data...stuff that doesn't have sources, will:

The famous ongoing Harvard Nurses Study has followed the dietary habits of tens of thousands of nurses for more than 25 years. In a summary published in 1997, the head of the study, Walter Willett, wrote, "Processed [hydrogenated] fats were shown to be the most significant culprit in generating heart disease, cancer and diabetes. (Other culprits included smoking, lack of exercise, high stress jobs, and heredity.)" In its July 2002 report to the FDA, the National Academies of Sciences called trans fats unsafe to consume in any amount.

A current Netherlands study published in the March 10th issue of the British medical journal The Lancet, shows that just a 2% increase in TFA intake causes a 25% jump in the risk
of heart disease.


Some of the adverse effects of the TFA reported in humans include:
1. Lowers the good HDL cholesterol in an inverse relationship, such that the higher the intake of TFA the lower the HDL cholesterol in the serum.
2. Increases the "bad" LDL cholesterol in a dose response manner.
3. Raises the atherogenic lipoprotein (a).
4. Increases total serum cholesterol values 20-30 mg%.
5. Increases the blood insulin levels in response to a glucose load, thus increasing the risk for Diabetes Mellitus.
6. Decreases the response of the red blood cell to insulin, therefore having a possible undesirable effect in Diabetes Mellitus.
7. Causes changes in adipose cell size, cell number, lipid class and fatty acid.
8. Affects the immune response by decreasing the B cell reaction and increasing propagation of T cells.

Hydrogenation (or, more accurately, “partial hydrogenation,” as the process is incomplete) is the forced chemical addition of hydrogen into omega-6 polyunsaturated oils to make them hard at room temperatures, primarily as a cheaper and less perishable substitute for butter in crispy bread products. Common hydrogenated fats include hydrogenated or partially hydrogenated cottonseed, palm, soy, and corn oils, but theoretically almost any polyunsaturated oil can be hydrogenated.

The chemical structure of artificially hardened hydrogenated fat is, however, different from either that of a naturally hard saturated fat or naturally liquid unsaturated (mono- or poly-) oil. Saturated fats have a rigid straight molecular form, which tends to “rigidify” the body structures into which they are incorporated, like blood vessels (thus the association between hard animal fats and atherosclerosis or hardening of the arteries). Unsaturated fats have various wavy or zigzag forms (called “cis-“ forms) that contribute to more flexible arteries and other body structures. Hydrogenated fats also have bent molecular shapes, but hydrogenated fats are bent in the mirror-opposite direction (which is why they are called "trans-" forms) of naturally occurring unsaturated fats. For this reason, hydrogenated fats are difficult for the body to “grab onto” and metabolize, and can neither be incorporated into cell structures nor excreted in the normal fashion.
 
But my lunchmeat would be all brown and unappetizing without my beloved nitrites.

And sure, coconut and palm oil are probably the least healthy naturally occuring vegetable oils. They're still more healthy than hydrogenated oils. And animal fats. Precious, precious butter. How I love you so.

Does anyone want some couscous?
 
Example of how hydrogenated products aren't cheaper:

goldfish, bulk, cost $0.325/oz

annie's cheddar bunnies, bulk, cost $0. 3108/oz

Incidentally, the latter also have some organic ingredients and taste better too.
 
umm. Poor people don't buy Pepperidge Farm brand ANYTHING.

Fairnymph, you really need to spend some time really watching your money before you start throwing out comparisons like that. Cheap imitation goldfish-like products are about half as much.
 
Coconut oil is actually pretty good for you. Definitely better than corn or soybean.
 
Well, if people start dying off and they link it to the modified oils (or current deaths or widespread obseity are conretely link & accepted), regulation may happen... but I have really hard time seeing it come into practice.

After all, tobacco kills all kinds of people, and its not really regulated.

I'm not trying to piss you off or anything, more playing the devil's advocate. I see your point though, and aside from doritos and candy here and there, I eat locally grown produce, etc. ... and I understand not wanting it the food supply.

Maybe I'm just jaded having grown up on a farm that grows exclusively GM foods, etc. I don't know.
 
Regulation IS happening, thank god.

Fairnymph, you really need to spend some time really watching your money before you start throwing out comparisons like that. Cheap imitation goldfish-like products are about half as much.
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Proof please! :D

Besides, I've been homeless. It is expensive to eat healthy but it's not expensive to avoid hydrogenated oil.

OH AND THE NUMBER ONE REASON WHY HYDROGENATED PRODUCTS DON'T HELP POOR PEOPLE BY BEING CHEAPER:

Companies didn't 'lower' their prices when they started replacing their natural oils with hydrogenated oils. So it has never benefited the consumer -- only the corporations. It IS truly all about profit.
 
Well I wouldn't say I'm biased one way or the other. I don't want to pay the outrageous prices for certified-organic foods though, as, like I said, I know for a fact how a lot of its grown.. and it would not make hippies happy.

Of course its about profit. Everything is always about profit... even the organic stuff. Its an insane markup. I've seriously been thinking about selling produce i grow in my backyard in the summer at the local open market. I'd make a lot of money labeling it as "naturally grown" and not useing chemical fertalizers.
 
FIVE DOLLARS FOR A POUND OF CRACKERS IS EXPENSIVE AS SHIT. FOUR FIFTY FOR A POUND OF CRACKERS IS EXPENSIVE AS SHIT.

If you think that requires proof, you don't live in the same world I do. But I already knew you don't.

In addition, Goldfish are an unusually bad example because they no longer contain trans fatty acids.
 
I was just informed of that. But that is a very recent change.

AF, if you think that's expensive, show me what's cheap. You're all talk here buddy.
 
On thing that is definitely good is to go to the farms or dairies where you get your produce, dairy, and meat from and SEE FOR YOURSELF how things are done. I was able to do this when I was in CA, and it was heartening, truly. At least the places I went. :)

I do think that small farmers, local products etc are key and supporting them is essential. This whole mass-market, giant-scale production industry that is the USA terrifies me.
 
>> I think there would be a rather alarming problem if that were true.
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Yes, it's called obesity. And it's really, really high in this country, and in other countries that consume a high level of hydrogenated oil.>>

There are other factors at play here though.
We drive everywhere. We drink 40 oz sodas. We eat very high-calorie meals. We work office jobs. We watch TV rather than exercising. etc.
Hydrogenated oils are part of the problem, but they're only the tip of the ice berg.

>>Coconut oil is actually pretty good for you. Definitely better than corn or soybean.>>

What are the benefits of coconut oil? It is extremely saturated, moreso than lard. That's about all I know on that. :)

>>Companies didn't 'lower' their prices when they started replacing their natural oils with hydrogenated oils. So it has never benefited the consumer -- only the corporations. It IS truly all about profit.>>

hear hear. Hydrogenated oils don't really do anything neato for consumers. They're great for capital, though.

>>I do think that small farmers, local products etc are key and supporting them is essential. This whole mass-market, giant-scale production industry that is the USA terrifies me.>>

This is a social phenomenon, though, not just the result of aggregate consumer choices. Perhaps some day America's migrant workers will rise up and seize what's theirs...(tangential)...

ebola
np: orbital
 
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