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The Big & Dandy Natural vs. Chemical / Synthetic Psychedelics Thread

Do you (tend to) prefer synthetic psychedelics (incl LSD) or natural ones?

  • Natural

    Votes: 1 12.5%
  • Synthetic

    Votes: 7 87.5%

  • Total voters
    8
I am dropping out of this debate . . . though I'll thank the few that stayed to the topic and actually posted their opinions.

Ps. We know Terence McKenna is not a 'guru' just an interesting fellow with a (ex)lifetime of expereince behind him.
 
Natural or designed?

I've noticed many people, including myself, tend to be biased towards "natural" drugs, considering them to be in some unspecified way superior to "synthetic" counterparts. When pressed for arguments, people either try to convince me (and themselves) that they are "cleaner", "more healthy" and "feel natural" or fall back on shamanic theories that only what is living can have a soul and impart its wisdom.

Myself, I believe that it is only for their own secret metabolic reasons that, for example cacti secrete 3,4,5-trimethoxy-PEA and not, say, 2,5-dimethoxy-4-ethyl-PEA (2C-E). Leaving aside McKenna's theories, I'm willing to bet that these cacti did not set out to synthesize mescaline because it feels "cleaner" to those pesky bipeds that pluck out their buttons. And as Shulgin said, molecules designed and created in a test tube have their own personality and ultimately life when enclosed in the warm wet envelope of a human brain.

As I see it, rather than a vehicle for the wisdom contained in an individual plant, these molecules are catalysts that enable us to access the wisdom of creation through our own minds, opening doors to knowledge that is inherently ours.

And so to our question, in your unbiased judgement, do you see any superiority in the natural product compared to its research chemical counterpart? If so, try to articulate it, at least in order to separate it from self-suggestion.

This thread is probably born out of my frustration of not having truly experienced mescaline. My low-dose trial with it was inconclusive, whereas I've had clean and euphoric experiences with 2C-E. Am I really missing out on mescaline? Or are rc's just as good?

Please answer only if you have TRIED BOTH the natural substance and its designer analogs.

Oh, and it would be nice if someone could help me make this into a poll, since I'm a Greenlighter and deemed too immature to tackle this responsibility.
 
RigaCrypto said:
Please answer only if you have TRIED BOTH the natural substance and its designer analogs.
I'm going to ignore this.

RigaCrypto said:
As I see it, rather than a vehicle for the wisdom contained in an individual plant, these molecules are catalysts that enable us to access the wisdom of creation through our own minds, opening doors to knowledge that is inherently ours.
That's my opinion too. The fact that you're using a natural compound adds a nice touch to the set/setting, though.

RigaCrypto said:
And so to our question, in your unbiased judgement, do you see any superiority in the natural product compared to its research chemical counterpart? If so, try to articulate it, at least in order to separate it from self-suggestion.
I'm not biassed towards either, but I would tend to tread more carefully with newer chemicals since they're so much less widely tested over a much shorter space of time.
 
RigaCrypto said:
Myself, I believe that it is only for their own secret metabolic reasons that, for example cacti secrete 3,4,5-trimethoxy-PEA and not, say, 2,5-dimethoxy-4-ethyl-PEA (2C-E).
That kind of makes sense. The reactions to make these chems found in nature are natural, whereas there might not be a natural reaction to create the synthesized chems.
Then again, how clean does 5-MeO-DMT feel to you? Do you like nutmeg?

I think it's all bullshit. If you'd put 2C-E in mushrooms, no one would be able to tell a difference. I'm sure of that. The mind is a strong tool.

Also, don't forget that something isn't natural anymore just because chemistry was involved. Everything used in chemistry comes from this earth, it's not like it's extraterrestial or something. We are humans and the actions we execute are perfectly natural, too.
 
The natural idea implies that there'd be a difference between pure mescaline extracted from a cactus source and pure mescaline from a lab - utter hogwash! It's down to set and setting, plain & simple
 
What I was curious about is whether mescaline is better than RC's. And similarly, whether 4-AcO-DMT/DiPT/MiPT/whatever is as good as mushrooms.

Sprinklervibes said:
I think it's all bullshit. If you'd put 2C-E in mushrooms, no one would be able to tell a difference. I'm sure of that. The mind is a strong tool.

You should do a blind test. That would be interesting.
Me, I disagree with that. I find an obvious difference. 2C-E is more euphoric, clear-minded and with less visuals. Mushrooms for me are pretty brain-clouding, though exquisite visually.
 
I enjoy natural things because of their naturalness, simplicity, and potential to be cultivated. However, I don't favor natural things to chemical counterparts. I find chemicals to be equally satisfying and mystical. Just because a scientist "made it" doesn't take away any of it's value for me. Chemicals are way easier to get than say, growing a cactus for a few years ("That was easy"). Also, extractions are a b*tch. I'd rather not spend an entire day boiling cactus chunks or grinding up bark or something. That being said, however, I am open to trying anything neat sounding once or twice, even if it does require a little extra effort. But for me, I have to say Chems are preferrable because of their availability and price and ease of use. Of course I'm only talking about legal things. =D
 
Dude I'm sooo high said:
I have to say Chems are preferrable because of their availability and price and ease of use.
It's pretty much the opposite situation for me. Any of the more exotic chemicals are all but impossible to find and even the easy ones like 2CB take some doing. I know this thread isn't about availability, but that is in fact an almost exclusive factor in my choice of natural over synthetic.
 
Well what kind of natural things are you talking about? The natural things are even more regulated than chems where I live.
 
The natural things being mescaline and psylocybin. Despite mushrooms now being class A (equivelent to schedule 1 in most countries) they're still easier to come by or simply grow than any of the RCs.
RCs are class a here and are still very unknown, so most dealers won't even know what you're asking for, nevermind where to get some.
 
Oh, I really really like mushrooms, don't get me wrong. I would love to grow or find a ton of them, but as far as dealers go, I don't really know anyone who has anything more than pot. I've never tried mescaline, but I almost got some. It just seemed like a lot of work and money to get one or two doses. Natural things can kick ass, no doubt about that. I've just found chemicals more rewarding myself.
 
The natural idea implies that there'd be a difference between pure mescaline extracted from a cactus source and pure mescaline from a lab - utter hogwash!

I agree with you that that implication would be wrong. But can you please quote someone making that exact implication? I think you like to argue with strawmen ;)

People who are in to 'natural' don't do extractions of pure mescaline. They are into the chemistry of the entire cactus, such an extraction wouldn't even be 'natural' any more for most of them. Instead, they eat the whole cactus, or make a water extraction/brew in the traditional way. And that's certainly not the same as doing extracted mescaline. You get a cocktail of chemicals, not a single chemical. The exact nature of the cocktail varies from one batch of cactus to another.

I see the 'natural' vs. 'synthetic' argument, as more like eating natural unrefined foods vs. eating processed sugar or other refined foods. When you eat a chemical psychedelic, be it a purified extraction or a purified synthetic, you are eating something highly refined. When you eat a cactus or some mushrooms, you are eating something completely unrefined, and thus a lot less predictable. Many people, including my self, prefer unrefined foods to refined foods. And similarly some people, though not including my self in particular, would just rather prefer unrefined psychedelics to refined psychedelics. Some people prefer herbal drugs to pharmecuetical drugs too when they work. We should respect people's choices. No one is right or wrong on these matters. Its everyone's own body, and everyone's own risk.

Many people who are into 'natural' are also concerned about the ecological wisdom of things they do. When you synthesize drugs in a lab, or do extensive extractions and purifications, you produce a lot of toxic chemical wastes which need to be disposed of. That has a significant ecological impact. OTOH if you just grow cacti or mushrooms, the ecological impact is minimal. So if you really want to be ecologically conscious person WRT to your psychedelic use, you'd stay with unrefined, a.k.a. 'natural' psychedelics. Maybe you think since you're one person your effect on the ecology doesn't matter. Thats not a good thing though when everone thinks that way. So again, we should respect people's choices.

And for some people, growing their own plants just makes them feel closer to the earth. I don't see that as being any different from someone who grows his own vegetable garden. You can say thats a set and setting thing, but a setting is more than your immediate environment, its how you've invested your personal time and energy leading up to the experience. So IOW the only way to create that set and setting is to invest the personal effort. So for those who do grow their own plants, that's their reward for their effort. Again, its a personal choice.

So really, It just comes down to personal preference. I prefer the refined psychedelics my self, because I find them more predictable and I just seem to get more mileage out of the experience. But I can see why some people think its a whole lot more holistic to use unrefined psychedelics, and thats why they do it. I can respect that.
 
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gloggawogga said:
I see the 'natural' vs. 'synthetic' argument, as more like eating natural unrefined foods vs. eating processed sugar or other refined foods.

This is a very weak and possibly invalid analogy, I think.
 
samadhi_smiles said:
This is a very weak and possibly invalid analogy, I think.
I agree, if the full situation is considered. Processed food is changed in a way that is often harmful (hydrogenated fats) or simply removes vital nutrients.
Synthetic (or indeed extracted) drugs are different in that in most cases the exact chemical is identified and can be shown to be all that's required for the full effects.
I can't argue with those who believe that the full plant is required for the real effects but I still maintain that that is a set/setting issue and not a chemical one in the case of most substances.

Have we got the point of the question all wrong? This discussion has been more along the lines of synthetically produced substances versus organic rather than completely invented substances that don't actually occur in any known plant. Was the OP more interested in that comparison than the one we've discussed?
 
Remember that many substances that were thought to be 'synthetic' were later discovered in plants. LA-111, valium, DMT, 5-MeO-DMT come to mind. Any chemical that exist does so because it was synthesized....regardless of whether or not that synthesis took place in the cells of a plant, or in a lab, it is still a synthesis that produced it.

In my opinion, the 'natural vs synthetic' argument is flawed for that very purpose...it supposed that what is natural was not synthesized at some point in its creation, or that a chemical from a lab is different than one that came from a plant.

I respect that some may prefer psychedelics that come from the earth, but as Glog said....one is not better than the other.

Personally, I prefer many of the 'lab produced' psychedelics. The only 'plant derived' psychedelic I have ever found a lot of value in was 5-MeO-DMT. Of course I have never used mescaline as I am saving that experience for another time.
 
morninggloryseed said:
The only 'plant derived' psychedelic I have ever found a lot of value in was 5-MeO-DMT. Of course I have never used mescaline as I am saving that experience for another time.
So you don't like Morning Glory Seeds, then?
 
I debated whether or not to include those in the list. Morning glory was my first psychedelic ever, so it will always hold a place in my heart. I've had many amazing experiences on lysergamide-containing seeds (baby woodrose included.) They were always alongside LSD in my book of allys.

But since discovering the 2Cs, I've really come to like the PEAs better...and I just don't ever use the seeds anymore. I rarely ever use LSD either, except with MDMA.

So that's why I don't often mention them since they are not in my active list of 'friends.'

I do want to try authentic R. Corymbosa one day....it just seems like a friendly spirit that I've yet to meet, but should. Baby woodrose and Heavenly Blue were worlds apart, and I am sure it is the same for Corymbosa. It certainly has a nice alkaloidal profile, and good ratio of active alkaloid to yucky glycoside (where did I see this? I know I've seen a BLer post analysis of glycosides vs lysergamides...I'll have to go look for that.) Rambling.

So yes, I 'like' em, love em actually...I just don't use them anymore as I rarely trip and when I do, it is a phenethylamine that is calling me.
 
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gloggawogga said:
I see the 'natural' vs. 'synthetic' argument, as more like eating natural unrefined foods vs. eating processed sugar or other refined foods. When you eat a chemical psychedelic, be it a purified extraction or a purified synthetic, you are eating something highly refined. When you eat a cactus or some mushrooms, you are eating something completely unrefined, and thus a lot less predictable. Many people, including my self, prefer unrefined foods to refined foods. And similarly some people, though not including my self in particular, would just rather prefer unrefined psychedelics to refined psychedelics. Some people prefer herbal drugs to pharmecuetical drugs too when they work. We should respect people's choices. No one is right or wrong on these matters. Its everyone's own body, and everyone's own risk.

.

How can psychedelics be anyhow predictable? Drugs like pharmaceuticals are predictable. Psychedelics work way too much on the thought to be any how predictable. Unless you can predict how you will respond to the experience.
That wouldn't make it a psychedelic anymore, it would be a boring recreational drug like the others, only good to pass time, socialize, or feel good in another way.
 
RigaCrypto said:
As I see it, rather than a vehicle for the wisdom contained in an individual plant, these molecules are catalysts that enable us to access the wisdom of creation through our own minds, opening doors to knowledge that is inherently ours.

I agree with that to, anything natural is more pleasing to the brain.
 
How can psychedelics be anyhow predictable?

Eating 300mg of mescaline is going to be more predictable than eating of certain amount of San Pedro Cactus, because you don't know how potent the San Pedro is and because you don't know what concentrations of other alkaloids are in the San Pedro. Its that simple. Its more predictable what you are actually ingesting when you eat chemical drugs (from know reliables sources, of course).

As for the predictability of the actual psychedelic experience, that depends on the individual.



I agree, if the full situation is considered. Processed food is changed in a way that is often harmful (hydrogenated fats) or simply removes vital nutrients.
Synthetic (or indeed extracted) drugs are different in that in most cases the exact chemical is identified and can be shown to be all that's required for the full effects.

I understand the weakness of the analogy if you consider the "full situation" as you say. But still, the point I was trying to make about refinement is that in many cases its just not desirable for people.

For example, why drink coffee instead of just taking caffiene pills? If you buy some No-Doze, you can save your self some money, right? Plus, you get a known dosage instead of the variable strength of coffee blends. Don't have to spend time brewing it either.

Or, if synthetic THC were available, do you think it would necessarily become more popular than the various strains of weed, which provide a varying blends of cannabinoids and thus varying highs from one strain to the next?

I still maintain that that is a set/setting issue and not a chemical one in the case of most substances.

Sure, but eating your synthetic mescaline and then staring at your laboratory equipment while smelling the stench of the toxic by products of synthesis is not going to be the same set and setting as eating your cactus and then staring at your cactus garden and smelling the San Pedro flowers ;)
 
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