The Big & Dandy Natural vs. Chemical / Synthetic Psychedelics Thread

[Creakle]

that;s the problem with creating weird distinctions involving "true" reality vs. some kind of imaginary one...a pity that our society encourages such distinctions and compartmentalization

 

[Cat Again]

That is dogmatic thinking. Whether produced through enzymatic processes in plant cells, or by chemical manipulation in a lab, chemicals are being "mixed." Reactions occur that result in new chemicals being created.

The whole nature vs synthetic argument, or rather that one (natural) is better than the other (synthetic) is very silly in my eye.

i completely agree.
A psychedelic is a psychedelic no matter where it came from. And in each group (synthetic and organic) there are the ones that people tend to enjoy and those that cause a bad reaction.

but if i had to choose:

u cant make me

 

[Morninggloryseed]

that;s the problem with creating weird distinctions involving "true" reality vs. some kind of imaginary one...a pity that our society encourages such distinctions and compartmentalization

I've been living in society since I was born. I don't recall ever being encouraged to "compartmentalize" my thinking. Reality/life is what you make of it. The information is out there. It is up to each of us to make use of it, and think outside of the box if that is what we choose.

 

[fastandbulbous]

I don't recall ever being encouraged to "compartmentalize" my thinking.

Well, y'know the human brain works by recognizing patterns, and to be able to recognize patterns you have to classify them to allow recall, & comparison so it's not so much an overt push to compatmentalize/analyse & classify things, it's just inherent in the way that our brains work

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Yeah I know, graduated with a psychology and sociology degree. I just don't like the way the statement rubbed me.....just tired of the "I hate society, everything is bad" crowd.

 

[Creakle]

hjmmm....my diagnosis is: you're full of shit

 

[Creakle]

of course, it's impossible that 4 years studying under the auspices of the psychiatric education system actually CHANGED your way of thinking in anyway. no, you're a free spirit, and you don't "recall" being conditioned to do anything so it's impossible that it happened!

 

[bickoma]

Then why does the pharmaceutical industry invest billions every year on developing drugs to treat conditions that could be treated using preparations of natural origin? Because they're trying to improve the safety margin. The land produces aconite in monkshood that can kill purely through skin absorbtion - the conditions it used to be used to treat are now treated by much much safer synthetic drugs.

Just because many people perceive natural substances as being safer doesn't mean it's true; once upon a time most people thought the sun went around the earth, but that didn't make it correct. Neither is the assumption that natural products are safer. Plants produce these compounds for a reason, generally to prevent themselves from being eaten - which means that they are specifically targeted at being dangerous to anything that might damage them (and mammals are one of the big target groups of these compounds). The reason they've been producing them for millions of years is because they are successful at what they're intended for.

The 'natural products are safer' is just one of the sort of things that seem to be associated with the more woolly thinking associated with using psychedelics

What I meant by my post is, that every time you grow a batch of Cubensis, you know it's P. Cubensis. When you synthesize a batch of LSD or mescaline, the process doesn't *always* go right ( neither does the Earth, but I'm willing to put money that the Earth has a lower percentage of mess-ups ) every time.

This is most likely why natural products are percieved to be safer. Some hippies only eat what grows, and stay away from the synthetic drugs.

 

[Jamshyd]

For those of you quoting McKenna as an authority: Always remember that he doesn't like mescaline because it is an amphetamine.

All your mushroom are belong to us!

 

[Creakle]

Mescaline (the chemical derived from peyote) is NOT an amphetamine. In my area, they sell dirty PCP as "mescaline" and even that's not an amphetamine. I don't know where you're getting your information, or whether you're getting it at all.

 

[nife]

Dude, you missed the point of his post... completely.

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Mr Creakle...as pointed out to fastandbulbous…What I said was not in response to the actual statement you made.

Rather, I was responding to (what I construe to be) an angry, disgruntled tone I feel you have been presenting in this particular thread, since I first stated noticing your posts the other day.

In truth, I made assumptions about your personality based on a few posts you made here, and that is a flaw on my part. Part of being human I guess. Passing judgments... We all do it.

I don't know where you're getting your information, or whether you're getting it at all.

Like right here. You are so (seemingly) angry and quick to pass judgment, you didn’t even bother to read what he said. If you had, you would have realized he was quoting someone else who made that mistake. Moreover, in searching your posts, I noticed a few other occasions you did that. Slow down friend!

that;s the problem with creating weird distinctions involving "true" reality vs. some kind of imaginary one...a pity that our society encourages such distinctions and compartmentalization

From this statement, it sounds like you believe there is almost some sort of conspiracy out there on the part of “society” to make individuals think a certain way. Maybe that is not at all what you meant, but either way, I tend to side more on the side of fastandbulbous in that the way “we” think is more a result of the human mind itself, and the natural outcome of a mind washed into the world of symbols and data. In addition, society is a natural evolution upon itself and the human mind (whatever that means). Either way, I don't feel "society" encouraged me to think in a compartmentalized fashion...but then I will also bet we all have a different version of what "compartmentalized thinking" really is.

hjmmm....my diagnosis is: you're full of shit

There is no reason to jump to insults. I thought psychedelics were supposed to make people more tolerant, and open-minded. Look, I’ll admit something very silly. I actually care about my reputation at Bluelight!@?%!!!!! Yes folks. If that is sad, then so be it. I’ve been lurking since 1999, and posting for almost six years now. Besides time invested, I’ve met a few interesting acquaintances, a good friend, and my girlfriend of almost three years now. I’m not about to lie about my credentials and background just to make a point to someone like you. I've also had enough people tell me that they value what I say here, and they have found my words helpful to them. And that is important to me, and so is my reputation here. If that is silly, then it's silly. But it really is how I feel.

of course, it's impossible that 4 years studying under the auspices of the psychiatric education system actually CHANGED your way of thinking in anyway. no, you're a free spirit, and you don't "recall" being conditioned to do anything so it's impossible that it happened!

I took six years to graduate, I was only a full-time student my last year. Beyond that, I wonder if you are having a manic episode or what because I actually can’t make sense of what you are trying to say here. Is this just complete sarcasm, or are you insinuating something because I sure have no idea. Nevertheless, relax and take the time to actually READ what people write, and learn to channel your anger into something positive. Try knitting.

Also, whether the "native tribes" use LSD or or peyote, the fact is their way of life is far more conducive to the results of an acid trip or a mushroom trip than our sickening circumstances….Maybe the natives are happier because they live healthier lives? Maybe all these theories only fuck us up further. I'm almost becoming phobic of philosophy for its ability to completely warp your reality in whatever manner you choose to believe. It's groping in the dark.

Is this based on some idealized image of happy natives running through the tulips before the evil ‘white man’ appeared, or are you summarizing some studies you have seen correlating depression (or lack there of) in indigenous cultures? In what ways are “their” ways of life better than “ours?” Better in the sense of what you consider to be “good”? How do you know "they" are happier. And are these Old World psychedelic users, or New World? Can you explain yourself further in a more specific way?

 

[fastandbulbous]

I think it's the time of year, everybodies starting to wake up after a long winter and seems to be getting their lines crossed; I know I am!

(and please, I didn't mean to offend anybody south of the equator, so don't be nasty - I'm feeling fragile...)

 

[Jamshyd]

Mescaline (the chemical derived from peyote) is NOT an amphetamine. In my area, they sell dirty PCP as "mescaline" and even that's not an amphetamine. I don't know where you're getting your information, or whether you're getting it at all.

I'm sorry sir, I don't know what you're talking about. Mr. McKenna told me that Mescaline is an amphetamine!!

I think it's the time of year, everybodies starting to wake up after a long winter and seems to be getting their lines crossed; I know I am!

(and please, I didn't mean to offend anybody south of the equator, so don't be nasty - I'm feeling fragile...)

You Nordocentric pig!

 

[Creakle]

Indeed, I forgot the strange metaphysical clique that is electronically generated by the vast Bluelight machine. I will never reach your status of education and mental refinement, Mr. Morninggloryseed

But ah well, so be it.

I will note, however:

At first you take a bizarre stance of comradery and equality. Then you proceed to question my mental stability. Then, you start talking about your sensitivty to Bluelight sociality. Then, oddly enough, you start to trash me on my idea of natives and then, again, my emotional stability. Also, like many psychologists/psychiatrists you try to shrink me down with your fancy diagnoses. Well..... entertain me. That's what we're here for.

 

[swilow]

Chill out everyone!!!

^^^Wow, somethings gone wrong here . . . Isn't BLuelight about 'Harm Reduction", which is basically what I've been trying to come across with the whole time . . . The whole philosophical and then personalised ranting was really off topic.

This is it in simple words :

From experience for several thousand years and more, humans have learned the difference between posonous/toxic plants/vegetables/fruits/insects etc etc. and things which are edible, tasty, valueable, healthy, friendly (pay homage tour beautiful Dogs and Cats here), beautiful and, of course- FUN/ENLIGHTENING/HELPFUL . . . We have 'filtered' out a lot of physically/ psychologically dangerous products of the world by not consuming them, and passing down the knoweldge that these things are either dangerous to 'taboo', and all in between those two factors... I guess you'd call it 'our survival instinct'.

I think a lot of 'shamanic' tribal existence very illumaintaing because, as did most cultures, achieve the above, to varying degress, including in this, the hallucinogens I've talked about. I think that by their years of use, they are deemed "safe", because of our survival instinct. That said, I wouldn't advise giving your kids "mushroom" omlette . . .

The fact that this The Pyschedelic Forum, I thought it interesing to raise the question as to whether the process of elimination and choosing that is natural in every species on the planet, also ocurred with hallucinogens in humans.

I think it did. And because of that, I think it is safer to trust in age old things, disciminately of course.

I've tried to word this carefully because a lot as been mentioned about words and what they mean and so on . . .

By organic, I meant substances completely uncreated and untreated by humans ( and don't dare anyone ention chewing or digesting the drugs I'm talking about ). Butter I would call "synthetic", cheese probably not

By synthetic I mean things created (yes from nature) but brought forth by the hands and imaginations of humans. Including butter.

As best as I could put that. Chill, theres no battle- just a question on harm reduction . . .


Being a boring fellow, I think I'm going to listen to my eders and stay away from these new drugs.

Anyone else see it like that? ( scared at possible rant ).

Peace

 

[fastandbulbous]

^ No, because mankind is at the stage now where we're able to look at a natural substance that's been used for millennia, work out how it acts & how it produces it's side effects, then modify that structure to improve on the wanted action without increasing the unwanted side effects.

If you want an example, the psychedelic with the safest theraputic index (ratio of effective to toxic dose) is LSD, which is a product of a synthetic lab. Psilocybin, DMT & mescaline might be fairly safe, but none come close to LSD in terms of theraputic index. Of course some are going to be more toxic, but that's only to be expected as research into the structure activity relationship continues, but to say that the ones that are the products of plants are the safest is just plain incorrect.

Safety is inherent in the molecular structure of the drug and not the source of it. If it wasn't then there'd be little point in much of pharmacological research

 

[gloggawogga]

Mr. McKenna told me that Mescaline is an amphetamine!!

If Mr. McKenna told you that then Mr. McKenna was wrong. Mescaline is not an amphetamine.

 

[fastandbulbous]

^ Which just goes to show that you should always independantly verify any info., regardless of how respected a source they are. Everyone makes mistakes at some point...

You Nordocentric pig!

And after I asked that no-one get upset and be nasty! I'm sooo disappointed

 

[Jamshyd]

^ hahaha.

Now, I can't believe people are STILL taking me seriously on the McKenna thing - especially those who have seen me post on this forum for like 3 years! How much more sarcastic can I make my tone? It gets a bit difficult after that...


Like, where in 3,4,5-trimethoxyphenethylamine can you not see the word "amphetamine"? geez, like, you people are so... like, undereducated! :D