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The Large and Nifty Not-quite-advanced Drug Chemistry, Pharmacology and More Thread

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Can anyone discuss the reality of this statement regarding 4-fluoroamphetamine?

RedLeader said:
Chemically, well ya on some rather-rudimentary levels it's pretty close. But 4-fluoromethcathin's structurally going to be closer to 4-fluoromethcathinone (4-FMC), which carries all of the physical dangers of 4-methylmethcathinone (4-MMC). So by transitivity, the stuff's going to be pretty darn close to mephedrone, for better or WORSE.

Meaning the risk of neurotoxicity (mainly), as well as addiction, is also going to be higher than the more classical amphetamine phenethylamines (like MDMA), given (among other things) that it's more closely related to mephedrone than to MDMA.
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I think that I lack some of the context that could situate RedLeader's original post, but 4-fluoro-amphetamine has been found to carry drastically less risk of neurotoxicity than mdma, as is largely the case with methylone too (both studies are Nichols et al., iirc). Also, I don't see why we should consider mephedrone more neurotoxic than MDMA on an a priori basis. As of yet, we don't really know what its receptor affinities, etc. are like, even.

ebola
 
ebola? said:
I think that I lack some of the context that could situate RedLeader's original post, but 4-fluoro-amphetamine has been found to carry drastically less risk of neurotoxicity than mdma, as is largely the case with methylone too (both studies are Nichols et al., iirc). Also, I don't see why we should consider mephedrone more neurotoxic than MDMA on an a priori basis. As of yet, we don't really know what its receptor affinities, etc. are like, even.

ebola
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That was the answer I was looking for, thanks.

Have any thoughts about cardiodoxicity of 4-fa? Should one be worried about similar side effects that meph presents?
 
I don't think that there's been rigorous study on the danger of 4-fa's metabolites (although they've been identified), but I believe that you have little to worry about--4fa won't metabolize to an ephedrine-like compound (in this case, we'd be worried about a cathine derivative, I believe).

5ht2b agonism is a more open question. If you have enough 4fa for this to become a legitimate worry, I envy you...A LOT. ;)
 
Yeah usually heart issues, such as those caused by 5ht2b agonism, don't appear until years of heavy abuse of serotonergic stimulants. But I'd say it's almost 100% certain that 4-FA would cause this effect over time with heavy abuse.
 
1-(4-methylphenyl)-2-aminobutane

Does anyone have any information about this compound?
 
Please try not to cross-post (I see that you made a distinct thread for this compound).
I can also see why you're perplexed--a google search pulled up pretty much your own threads alone.

ebola
 
Sorry, I put it here first, and then got worried it might not get any attention. I wasn't sure how active this thread was. You can delete whichever you think is less relevant.
 
Hello!

I am a layman. but I am interested in neurobiology. So, first of all, where can I learn the basics of it? Good books and articles to start with? I prefer scientific ones.

And I have few questions to ask:
1) Do endorphines play little role in mood control?
2) Does high serotonin level in bloodstream not necessarily mean high level in brain? What about other monoamines?
3) Are there any theories explaining love from the neuroscience point of view? Recently I read a theory about different stages of love(PEA stage, Adrenaline stage, Amphetamine stage, Dopamine stage...). It looked like a bad pop-science article, but is there any similar scientific theory, so I can read the original.
4) And the last one: can amphetamine be produced in the body of a norman human? I mean, is there endogenous amphetamine(not a similar compound like phenylalanine, but amphetamine)?
 
allium
your best bet is to look through medical journals...good old fashioned libraries are great for this sort of thing. The reason they're so useful is because at the end of every article there are citations and indications for further reading. That way, you can find articles that interest you, read them, decide if it's worth pursuing, and go from there.

I've been a self-teacher in this respect for a long time, but I should qualify that I'm a pre-med student with easy access to an excellent library and a startling obsession with medicine.

Either way, hope you find it helpful.
 
I was thinking about this earlier today. Tryptamines substituted on the 5 position like to have nasty sympathomimetic effects. What if you had a chemical, for example, 5-methoxy-dimethyltryptophan, perhaps coadministered with a peripherally active-only dopa decarboxylase inhibitor (definitely if taken orally)? Could such a prodrug act as a good way of increasing its concentration in the CNS and decreasing peripheral concentration? The molecule would still be able to exit out the blood-brain barrier, so it wouldn't eliminate peripheral activity, but it could still cut back on it significantly. Or would tryptophan hydroxylase still try to mess with the 5 position even though there's already something there? If that's the case, then could at least, say, dimethyltryptophan (5-hydroxy-dimethyltryptophan would be better actually) act as a good prodrug for bufotenin? The only other problem I can think of is, in the examples I've given, is that they have a relatively short duration of action. If dopa decarboxylase is too slow and MAO is too fast, then this would be inefficient and/or ineffective.

Edit: Wait, can you even have a dimethylated tryptophan that would be decarboxylated by dopa decarboxylase to produce the desired molecule anyway? I'm having my doubts about this.

Edit 2: Seems Shulgin disagrees with this idea.
 
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Maybe this would be better suited to psychedelic drug discussion, but. . .

Which psychedelics, particularly those still available on the US's grey market, present the fewest cardiovascular risks? My 'gut' would say one of the psilocybin-like tryptamines, but this is going off subjective feel. What about the 2Cs? Is the tension (and headaches) that they effect due to adrenergic agonism, best avoided if one is steering clear of cardio-strain? Or are these types of discomforts essentially benign?

This time, I'm truly asking on behalf of a friend (7 hours of cardio a week BETTER render me healthy enough for stimulating forays ;)). I know that psychedelics and heart conditions don't mix, but I also know that people can be too damned stubborn. ;)

ebola
 
The partial agonism of the tryptamines and 2c-x drugs lead me to believe that they're more benign... The biggest thing to look for is any instance of fatalities which has only ever really happened with 2c-t-7 in the 2c-x family and 5-MeO-DMT (when combined with MAO-Is) in the tryptamine family. I really don't think there's much to worry about with most of the phenethylamines, there seems to be a greater body discomfort to some people but it's never translated into anything life-threatening even in heroic doses.

Except for probably cannabis, I'd imagine that these psychedelics are probably some of the safest recreational drugs out there except in terms of psychosis risk (which cannabis has, too).

The psychedelic amphetamines, on the other hand, being full agonists, are probably more dangerous. The DOB-Dragonfly mix-up a little while back shows just how much.
 
allium said:
Hello!

I am a layman. but I am interested in neurobiology. So, first of all, where can I learn the basics of it? Good books and articles to start with? I prefer scientific ones.

And I have few questions to ask:
1) Do endorphines play little role in mood control?
2) Does high serotonin level in bloodstream not necessarily mean high level in brain? What about other monoamines?
3) Are there any theories explaining love from the neuroscience point of view? Recently I read a theory about different stages of love(PEA stage, Adrenaline stage, Amphetamine stage, Dopamine stage...). It looked like a bad pop-science article, but is there any similar scientific theory, so I can read the original.
4) And the last one: can amphetamine be produced in the body of a norman human? I mean, is there endogenous amphetamine(not a similar compound like phenylalanine, but amphetamine)?
Click to expand...

1.) No clue, I imagine opioid agonists would cause profound mood changes though
2.) I could imagine situations where it would not, but generally it does
3.) I doubt that there's much more than theories out there, and studies quantifying various chemicals at various stages
4.) No, amphetamine is synthetic and not encountered in any organisms as far as I know, hence its ubiquitous activity as a stimulant in most mammals
 
allium said:
Hello!

I am a layman. but I am interested in neurobiology. So, first of all, where can I learn the basics of it? Good books and articles to start with? I prefer scientific ones.

And I have few questions to ask:
1) Do endorphines play little role in mood control?
2) Does high serotonin level in bloodstream not necessarily mean high level in brain? What about other monoamines?
3) Are there any theories explaining love from the neuroscience point of view? Recently I read a theory about different stages of love(PEA stage, Adrenaline stage, Amphetamine stage, Dopamine stage...). It looked like a bad pop-science article, but is there any similar scientific theory, so I can read the original.
4) And the last one: can amphetamine be produced in the body of a norman human? I mean, is there endogenous amphetamine(not a similar compound like phenylalanine, but amphetamine)?
Click to expand...

1. yes
2.There are blood and urine tests that estimate from calculations of the hormone being excreted/flowing in the blood stream.....There are so many different theories about how neurotransmitters work.....but as of today they are tested by measuring the secreted/flow in the blood stream to calculate how much is being made by your glands........
3....I read one time about a gland or something in the middle of your brain/central region of your brain....that produces a hormone that causes feelings/sensations of love...love is actually a side effects of high levels of hormones.......and that probably ruined someones love theory....sorry
4.humans can not make amphetamines on their own....there is a whole process.....and i might be wrong on some of this....--don't blame me blame my ADD-lol its late and i should probably sleep.......but i will probably just research what i just wrote if i remember after submitting this...
 
2. means maybe....as of today yes a blood test can produce results....but its really just an estimation because we don't fully understand the brain.....

I really hope that makes sense....
 
It is well known that this has been debunked as contamination
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A tad more parsimonious than Acacia containing every fucking drug, aye. ;)
 
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