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sonic_reality
24-08-2003, 06:17
hey,
someone has this as their signature:
"If acid makes you see things, then why don't they give it to blind people?"
if you know who's sig this is, please say!

anyway, ever since coming to bluelight, and seeing this siganture, i have been sooo interested in what would actually happen if a blind person had acid!!

would they see colours, pictures, patterns etc.???
and if they have been blind their whole life, then how could they explain what they are seeing?? they wouldn't know what color is what, what the patterns are, what the pictures are about etc..!!
and even if a person who could see was with them, they wouldn't be able to explain the colours, because colours are one of the hardest things in the world to explain!

i have even asked friends and relatives about it, and they are just as puzzled as to what would happen as me!!

so does anyone know if this has been done before(of course it would have), and if it was documented?? or do you personally know a blind person that has taken acid before, and what was it like for them?? did they see anything??

any info would be much appreciated, as this has been puzzling me for over a year now!!

sorry if this has been done before, i just didn't know how to go about searching for it! if it has been done, just kindly point me towards the thread!!

cheers, and whoever's signature that is, it has really got me thinking!!!

Urbanhog
24-08-2003, 08:49
You could always gather a busload of blind people from the Blind Society, and do experiments on them dropping tabs of acid. Then you can report back to us. That would be the most interesting document.

Sorry I have no idea, but I am very curious..... it's the same giving people hits of strong acid to deaf people and they don't know if they are hearing stuff or not, it's too bizzare for them to explain. It's all mental thing I guess.

Cheers, Urbie :D

apollo
24-08-2003, 09:03
Seer Snively writes:
> If someone who is blind (because of a phyical problem with the eye, no
> brain problems) or who is colour blind took lsd, would they "see" colour?
>
> Does anyone think they would get visuals? Does anyone KNOW (first or 2nd
> hand)?

Hello. My evil twin(tm) is a green-blind deuteranomal.
Due to the presence of an annoying little recessive gene
on his X-chromosome, the spectral sensitivity of his
middle cones peak at a different wavelength of light
than a "normal" individual. Thus, greens look different
to him, or not like "green" at all...

He enjoys both hiking in the wilderness and psychadelics,
especially simutaneously. In the wilderness, it's often
useful to be able to spot red objects amidst all the
green (e.g. reddish poison oak leaves in the green scrub
oak). He has found that LSD enhances his perception of
colors, but does not greatly improve his differential
perception of green. While his hiking companions are
constantly pointing out red-tailed hawks, red manzanita
bark, or the poison oak he's currently standing in, he
still has problems picking them out of a green background.

So when the iodopsin in one or more of the sets of cones
is abnormal, the signals being sent to the brain are
the same, with or without psychadelics. How the brain
on LSD recognizes these signals may be different, but he
hasn't found that the green perception improves.

But he's continuing the therapy in hopes of improvement...

As far as *visuals* are concerned, he hasn't noticed any
really special greens that he doesn't see in real life.

But here's a question: does this hypothetical individual
who is colorblind (total achromat, which is rare) _dream_
in color? Would he/she know if the dreams were in "color"?
Would he/she know if the hallucinations were in "color"?

`jimb

"LSD: not a cure, but good therapy for color blindness." From Erowid Psychoactive Vaults (http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_info6.shtml).

:)

En_warp
24-08-2003, 09:13
i'm interested in this too.

I'm not sure about the medical side of why and how people are blind but as were all well aware it's probabaly to do with the functions of the eye not working or missing whatever.

So i'm guessing acid wont do much to a blind person in the sense of being able to see colours/patterns as their eyes do not function properly thus the effects of lsd will act differently to them as it does to us.

But then again i'm just guessing, it would be interesting to see the outcome though

harraser
24-08-2003, 10:53
it is my understanding (and not a vast understanding by an means, im sure one of the mods can correct/elaborate on this for me) that LSD has been found to cause changes to the action in the brain-stem, as do dreams, and not in the frontal lobe where sight is located.

thus, do blind people "see" images in their dreams when theyre asleep? not that ive heard. it appears to affect more your interpretations of the things you perceive, (ie for a blind person this would not include sight) rather than creating new things to be percieved. perceptual distortions rather than 'true' hallucinations. so if you cant see in the first place then there are no images to be distorted...

id be interested to see what a some of the more knowledgeable among us have to say, this is an intersting question!!

BigTrancer
24-08-2003, 11:19
Siegel, R.K., Brewster, J.M., Johnson, C.A. and Jarvik, M.E. "The effects of hallucinogens on blind monkeys", Int Pharmacopsychiatry 11(3), pp.:150-6, (1976).


ABSTRACT

Two blind monkeys were studied with an observational profile that was previously shown to distinguish the effects of hallucinogens from those of other classes of drugs. Lysergic acid diethylamide and dimethyltryptamine could be distinguished from saline, chlorpromazine, d-amphetamine sulfate, and bromo-lysergic acid diethylamide by the increased frequency of spasms, stereotypy, bump, and tracking. The hallucinogens also produced dramatic increases in exploration and related behaviors normally seen only in response to real visual or auditory stimuli. These behaviors are discussed in terms of their similarity to behaviors observed with sighted monkeys in light and dark environments.

BigTrancer :)

johnboy
24-08-2003, 12:06
From the Guardian's Notes and Queries

What happens to a blind man when he takes LSD, seeing as hallucinations are out of the question? Can he experience flashbacks?

karl, dublin ireland


Why would hallucinations be out of the question? The most common forms of hallucination are olfactory (smell & taste), and auditory hallucination is much more common than visual. You'd have to be really tripped out before the visual hallucinations became particularly significant. LSD does much more than just make you see things, it alters a users beliefs as well as perceptions. This is why the hallucinations are so convincing, the drug makes you believe them.

Seth, Edinburgh Scotland


Hallucinations are quite possible for a blind person, what he will visualise is a separate question. It will depend on whether he/she has any previous sight. Now if you really mean illusions and not hallucinations then a blind man will not be able to experience these.

Richard Avery, Alcala de Guadaira Spain


Hallucinations are not purely visual (as anyone who has taken acid will know). They may be auditory or affect any of the senses. Furthermore, few genuinely blind people experience no visual perception whatsoever. If a blind person can experience a trip, they can certainly experience a flashback.

Max Wurr, Stanmore UK


Hallucinations are in the mind, so they are not out of the question. As for flashbacks; smells, sounds, tastes, and touches can be recalled as well as the visual aspects of our memorys.

RHonda, Tempe,AZ USA


http://www.guardian.co.uk/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-26761,00.html

auntiedote
24-08-2003, 14:06
Originally posted by sonic_reality
so does anyone know if this has been done before(of course it would have), and if it was documented?? or do you personally know a blind person that has taken acid before, and what was it like for them?? did they see anything??

Sonic reality this is a hard question to find an answer to because 85% of blind people in Australia have some functional vision, meaning that their tripping experience will be similar to that of you and me. 10% have light perception, which leaves only 3-4% of people who are TOTALLY blind. I'm not sure that you'd be able to find many out of the 3-4% who'd taken, or be willing to take LSD.

But surely in America for example, there must be some old blind hippie from the 60's thats done it! :) who knows...

i'd really love to know the answer to this question and it's particularly frustrating for me, because i know someone who is totally and utterly blind, but the chances of getting her to do a trip is zero...urrrggghhhh!! :D

Psychadelic_Paisly
24-08-2003, 14:18
^^^^^ just tell she'll be able to gain vision for the duration of the trip and see what happens. hehehe jk.

sonic_reality
24-08-2003, 14:25
i guess someone who is completely blind, would be too scared that the person with sight would leave! i know i would.

how scary would that be, tripping off your nut, not being able to move(because you wouldn't know where you were going), and then the only person with sight, leaves the room!! i would be terrified!
you would have no idea what was going on, and the thoughts acid makes you have, would just intensify your fears!

hehe, surely someone who is completely blind has done it before, but whether they lived to tell the tale is another question!!

thanks for all the answers guys, but it has still got me puzzled!! i'm still interested to know if they see things.

because when we close our eyes on acid or mushies, we are not actually seeing what is there. it is in our minds/imagination!
so would a blind person, imagine they are seeing something(be it colours, patterns or even a picture) soo much, that they believe they are actually seeing it??

and the deaf question put forward by urbandog is also an interesting one!

would a deaf person, think they are hearing things?
because when we hear things on acid or mushies, we aren't actually hearing it(meaning it hasn't got anything to do with the ears/eardrums), we are imagining or thinking that we hear it. when we actually aren't!!

i think a blind or deaf person would have sensory overload, because all their other senses are more fine tuned than ours!!

and harrasers comments are intersting too!!
would a blind person, see in their dreams?? because once again, it is all in the imagination!!

man, i started this thread to get answers, and i've just come out with more questions!! hehe :)

Urbanhog
24-08-2003, 19:47
Originally posted by sonic_reality
and the deaf question put forward by urbandog is also an interesting one!

would a deaf person, think they are hearing things?
because when we hear things on acid or mushies, we aren't actually hearing it(meaning it hasn't got anything to do with the ears/eardrums), we are imagining or thinking that we hear it. when we actually aren't!!

i think a blind or deaf person would have sensory overload, because all their other senses are more fine tuned than ours!!


Well Sonic Reality, I think I may can give you some information.... as you see I am deaf, yep I am profoundly deaf, been like that since I was born, I cannot hear a damned thing, all my ear's nerves are completely stuffed. I use hearing aids and lip reading as my way of communication. When I wear hearing aids, I can hear everything, but I cannot "recognise" the noises, I hear the noises but no idea what they saying or what it is, I can hear music but I have no idea of the lyrics or whatever, but I can still "hear" the tones of highs and lows, etc etc

Yes, you are right Sonic about how deaf or blind people could have a sensory overload because my other senses is more refined/higher/more senstive to make up for my hearing loss, seems I am pretty senstive when it comes to taste, smell and feel because sometimes I can feel, taste and smell things what others don't even notice.

And the weird thing is I have noiticed is when I compare mine and my hearing friend's dreams while we are sleeping, is that my dreams are very highly visual and extremely colourful for moods, if its bright and colourful, its a happy or interesting dream, its a dark, moody and gloomy colours its a bad/moody/unhappy/some kind of a "warning" type of dream, its so trippy sometimes, almost very psychedelic.

The interesting thing is I have never "hear or heard" anything in my dreams, its very silent, like the silent movies from the 30's and 40's but with more colours added, and when I "listen" people/characters in my dreams, it seems they very "expressive" using a lot of facial expressions as a way of telling me the "tone". And I lip-read in my dreams too!

So I am guessing that with the blind if they were born blind, they don't see things in their dreams, its more of sensory dream with mostly of sounds and feelings and maybe taste and smell?

Sometimes I find when I use acid or magic shrooms I do "image" the "noises" but I have no idea if they are real or not, but then one day I decided to try some tripping without my hearing aids, and funny.... I wasn't hearing anything at all......its all in the head.

So I am guessing if it was a blind person that was born blind that they dont see anything, its also more of a sensory trip with mostly of sounds and feelings and maybe taste and smell?

Sometimes I find when I am on ecstasy, seems my senses is very over-senstive and heightened, and it just feels so amazing, maybe it's because (I may be wrong here but... ) most hearing mates of mine who are on ecstasy are more of listening to music, saying how music sounds wicked, etc etc while they are peaking, but I just focus more on my feelings of the MDMA effects, maybe makes the MDMA effects way more enjoyable? I have no idea.

All I can say that I find tripping on mescaline, magic mushrooms and acid for me as a deaf person, is a very highly enjoyable experience for me because I am very highly visual person.

And also I am happy being deaf, I have no desire to be "hearing person", even there is technologly to help me "hear" with these cochlear implants but I am just not interested..... I love my little silent world, its so handy, all I have to do is take my hearing aids off.... then it's silent and always have slept well, and sometimes its nice to have a joint on a relaxing sunny afternoon.... just sit back and relax.....without any noises or hassles that could bother my relaxing session.....just total peace *sigh*.

Drug experiences is very interesting in my opinion while doing them in silent, but I have no idea, I cannot compare and I have no desire to find out.

Hope I have helped a bit Sonic, any further questions, feel free to ask.

Cheers

Strawberry_lovemuffin
25-08-2003, 01:56
^^^

Wow.... that has to be one of the most interesting things I have ever read on bluelight.

It makes so much sense too. Drugs can't "create" senses that aren't physically there; and if you've no experience of them in the first place it's even more unlikely.

I found it fascinating what you say about the "feeling" side of MDMA - I too concentrate on this, not the visual or the auditory, and I'm a hearing person. For me, ecstacy has always been about the body sensations and the emotional experience. I can even go without music at all, doesn't really bother me. Some candles are nice though :D

It makes sense that the visual/feeling side would be exaggerated in those without hearing. But I wonder if certain people with all their senses are still predisposed to one sense or another. Touch might be mine. ?

Sorry if I got off track there but yeah.... you really made me think, Urbanhog! I am fighting the urge to say "good on you", or "you're so brave" or something corny like that but I won't, because obviously you've no need of condescentions like that... much respect to you buddy. :)

onetwothreefour
25-08-2003, 03:56
thanks for that urbanhog, that was a really interesting post.

BigTrancer
25-08-2003, 04:36
"If acid makes you see things, then why don't they give it to blind people?"
if you know who's sig this is, please say!

This quote appears in Sllip's signature, i.e.:
If acid makes you see things why don't we give it to blind people?
-------------------
Computer games don't affect kids. If Pac Man affected us as kids, we'd all run around a darkened room, munching pills. and listening to repetitive music...I can find posts by Sllip with this signature back as far as 2001.

In my search I also found the following threads on the topic of acid and the visually impaired:

Acid and Colourblindness (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35163)
LSD and the blind (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16817)

BigTrancer :)

sydneyboy7
25-08-2003, 05:03
Hey Urbandog, that was really insightful and very kind of you to share. I had a very good friend of mine at high-school who was profoundly deaf, but this only came on in his mid-teens so he had previously been able to hear. When we took MDMA together a year or so ago and we were out clubbing at The Shift in Sydney, he signed so fast I could barely read what the hell he was saying - but the general drift was that he's never experienced music like that before. Now he's a pretty smart guy - but I couldn't understand what the hell he meant! I tried to slow him down (he likes his pills! :)) and he expressed that although he can't physically hear the music - he was listening to it through us and our expressions and "energy" to use his word. Pretty funky cos he kept right in time with our music and danced us all to shame!!

shorza
25-08-2003, 05:59
Originally posted by drwhatwhat
Would closed eye visuals be possible?

I've never experienced these but read and heard a little about them. Usually involves swirling colours etc etc on the eyelid when the eyes are closed. Just a thought.

If someone has been blind their whole life, what would thier CEV's be of?
Would they even know what colours are?

auntiedote
25-08-2003, 07:32
^^If they've been blind their whole life, they don't have any CEV's and they don't have a clue what colours are. And as Sonic Reality said, trying to explain what a colour is to someone whose never seen one is very hard. You can tell them that the colour orange is like orange the fruit for example, but it meaningless to the blind person cause they can only relate to the feel and smell of an orange.

MazDan
25-08-2003, 07:43
haha, great stuff Urbandog.

I hear where ur coming from regards the heightened enjoyment or sensing of the effects of E.

I also find that when I use alone and just allow myself to sink into the feelings with no music and no other things to interrupt, that I can get heaps further in than if I am with people.

This is one of the reasons why I enjoy it on my own........mind you i also like it with others but for different reasons.

Cheers bro.

doofhard
25-08-2003, 09:02
I have a better plan. If I get to go to the bushdoof coming up in September I'm going to blindfold myself completely for a trip and what a trip it will be.

Cpt.Caveman
25-08-2003, 11:23
I would have thought that if you're totally blind then you get no sorts of visual signals to or from your brain at all, so you still wouldn't see anything.

I'm not expert at this stuff thought so I'm probably wrong.

BigTrancer
25-08-2003, 12:40
How to describe the colour red to a blind person: the colour red is the observed hue of light having a wavelength ~632.8 nanometres. If the colour isn't observed, then it's just an electromagnetic wave...

BigTrancer ;)

syntech
27-08-2003, 08:04
ooooooh my gorgeous b/fs sig has created such an in-depth thread! i think i just fell even more in love!! teehee!!

sonic_reality
27-08-2003, 08:28
haha, well, it's an awesome sig!!

i love the pacman one too!! he's got a great sense of humour!!

pacman is evil i tells ya, evil!! i bet it was made by the original ecstasy manufatures, to lure us little kiddies into eating their lovely pills!!
i bet mickey mouse was also created by the creators of acid, to get us to munch down their blotters!!

where is sllip, he should make a post in this thread, seeing as though it's all about his signature!!

ps. syntech, glad my thread made you love him even more!! i think he will be thanking me later!! ;) 8o =D

syntech
28-08-2003, 06:14
hehe
yeh he knows about the thread, he's just a jaded old-schooler now and doesnt come on BL much. hehehe.

and yes, pacman is evil. at the bar where i used to work we had Pacman in Pacland in the staff room. evil little man got me wanting those round bitter things even more!

as for acid, i'm trying it for the first time this weekend with Sllip. i dont think i want to get severely munted tho! i would add more to the post but what i think has already been said.
i did psych in grade 12 and we were told blind ppl will dream like they feel, with their remaining senses.

but then, have u heard that scientists r developing an artificial eye for those that have never seen before? the vision from that is still very crude...like those old dot matrix printers. but still, its a huge step and if a blind person had one of those, and they took acid, can u imagine what would happen!!!

Sllip
28-08-2003, 10:00
Yeah but the acid isn't as good as back when I first started taking it. And the blind people are no where near as blind.

Stumbles back off to jaded world.