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MDMA and MDA - are they cross-tolerant, and why?

shorza

shorza

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Sep 6, 2001
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A bit off topic, but wouldn't MDA realese seretonin just like MDMA?
So after using MDMA how is there still seretonin left for MDA?

Does that question make any sense?
 
Yeah it's a bit off the current topic, but it's a decent question so I'll split off your post and make a new thread.

So, this current thread is now for a discussion of MDA/MDMA cross-tolerance, or lack thereof, and reasons why.

My first, hasty, thoughts on this subject are that discussing this complicated issue purely on the basis of 'serotonin release' will be somewhat fruitless.

IMO: The actions of MDMA and MDA on the body and the brain are far more complex than simply 'take a pill, release serotonin, be happy'; however, the release of serotonin and it's subsequent replenishment time are responsibly for the major effects and many of the dominant physical and mental effects can be explained simply by this reasoning. But, the neuropharmacology is not that simple, and IMO there are other factors, both physical and mental, that contribute to 'tolerance'.

BigTrancer :)
 
I do remember reading somewhere that MDA and MDMA has no cross-tolerance. However I can offer no possible explination. Plus hunting down a MDA pill because your've been munching on too many pure MDMA pills would be fruitless, as BT mentioned there is more to peaking then the simply swallowing a pill.
 
In my experience MDA has not had much, if any, cross tolerance with MDMA. When I had a Yellow TP it completely floored me, and I would consider myself to have a high tolerance.
 
^ I pretty much agree. I wonder how many/few MDMA/MDA mixed pills it takes before you're tolerant to both and you just can't get anything from ecstasy at all?

BT:)
 
im not planning on trying - MDA is fun, but not something i would do repeatedly 8(
 
I wouldn't mind betting that a dose of the R isomer of MDMA and a dose of the S isomer of MDA would be hard to differentiate between. (R)(-) MDMA and (S)(+) MDA are alike, but the opposite isomers are not in terms of their structure activity relationship (SAR). The SAR of (S)(+)MDMA and (R)(-)MDA are very different to each other and to their respective enantiomer opposites.

Remember, it is the S(+) isomer of MDMA which makes you feel empathic / loved up. There is little doubt this is mainly through serotonin (5HT) release, as MDMA binds with the 5HT transporter......eventually causing increased release of serotonin. Of course it also does lots of other things as well.

But the trippy feelings of MDA are likely to be because the R isomer also binds with 5HT2a receptors. It makes sense to think that because as BT explains MDMA doesn't go some places MDA goes, that cross tolerance between the two wouldn't be expected to develop.
 
^^^ Why do you say that S(+) isomer of MDMA is the more empathetic one?

- therefore (S)-MDA and (R)-MDMA are more alike in the solution phase, and the 5-HT transporter wants to have the side chain bent in that fashion, therefore these two isomers are the most 5-HT releasing ones...
Click to expand...
 
u guys know your shit can some1 jus tell me wat the main differences between mda and mdma are
cheers:)
 
main feelings:
mdma - loved up, ~4 hr ride, euphoric feelings
mda - not loved up, rushy feelings, possible (minor/major) hallucinations and it is longer than mdma, ~5ish hrs.

That's the very basics off hand. Try reading up on:
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma.shtml
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mda/mda.shtml

to get more :)


*oops* First thing in the morning, brain not working.. Fixed it to state MDA is a longer session. Sorry... it's the afternoon now, Im alive. heh
 
Last edited:
From PiHKAL --> #109 MDMA:

QUALITATIVE COMMENTS:

[...]

(with 100 mg of the "R" isomer) There were the slightest of effects noted at about an hour (a couple of paresthetic twinges) and then nothing at all.

(with 160 mg of the "R" isomer) A disturbance of baseline at about forty minutes and this lasts for about another hour. Everything is clear by the third hour.

(with 200 mg of the "R" isomer) A progression from an alert at thirty minutes to a soft and light intoxication that did not persist. This was a modest +, and I was at baseline in another hour.

(with 60 mg of the "S" isomer) The effects began developing in a smooth, friendly way at about a half-hour. My handwriting is OK but I am writing faster than usual. At the one hour point, I am quite certain that I could not drive, time is slowing down a bit, but I am mentally very active. My pupils are considerably dilated. The dropping is evident at two hours, and complete by the third hour. All afternoon I am peaceful and relaxed, but clear and alert, with no trace of physical residue at all. A very successful ++.

(with 100 mg of the "S" isomer) I feel the onset is slower than with the racemate. Physically, I am excited, and my pulse and blood pressure are quite elevated. This does not have the 'fire' of the racemate, nor the rush of the development in getting to the plateau.

(with 120 mg of the "S" isomer) A rapid development, and both writing and typing are impossible before the end of the first hour. Lying down with eyes closed eliminates all effects; the visual process is needed for any awareness of the drug's effects. Some teeth clenching, but no nystagmus. Excellent sleep in the evening.
Click to expand...

BigTrancer :)
 
wazza said:
main feelings:
mdma - loved up, ~4 hr ride, euphoric feelings
mda - not loved up, rushy feelings, possible (minor/major) hallucinations and it is shorter than mdma, ~3ish hrs.
Click to expand...

Interesting, I thought MDA was a longer ride?
 
Great Question.....

I can't remember where I read it, but Shulgin (God-father of MD**) had a paper on this exact question. Although not statistically significant the results showed that there is NO CROSS TOLERANCE.

Meaning that you might have had X amount of MDMA for X days in a row to the point that there is no further effect. But ingest MDA and the effects are "full on"

Pity I can't remember where I saw it. Perhaps on his web-site.

Good luck...
 
Also from my above link, A. Shulgin, "PiHKAL" --> #109 MDMA (why do i bother linking these things?...)

Tolerance studies also support differences in mechanisms of action. In one study, MDMA was consumed at 9:00 AM each day for almost a week (120 milligrams the first day and 160 milligrams each subsequent day) and by the fifth day there were no effects from the drug except for some mydriasis. And even this appeared to be lost on the sixth day. At this point of total tolerance, there was consumed (on day #7, at 9:00 AM) 120 milligrams of MDA and the response to it was substantially normal with proper chronology, teeth clench, and at most only a slight decrease in mental change. A complete holiday from any drug for another 6 days led to the reversal of this tolerance, in that 120 milligrams of MDMA had substantially the full expected effects. The fact that MDMA and MDA are not cross-tolerant strengthens the argument that they act in different ways, and at different sites in the brain.
Click to expand...

Also from #109 MDMA - "DURATION: 4 - 6 h."
From #100 MDA - "DURATION: 4 - 6[hours] (revised, Sep 2001)."
"[...] Duration Revision, September 2001 In september 2001, Erowid altered its duration for MDA from 8-12 hours to 3-6 hours. After discussing the subject with Sasha, he asked us to revise the online entry to reflect his revised view of MDA's duration."

BigTrancer :)
 
Well done Big Trancer. That was the one that I was reefer-ing (he he) to.


Pretty bloody good BT. :D
 
That last quote of yours BT was exactly the one I was thinking about finding when I read this thread :)

I'm not sure I agree with a total recovery, or at least the ability to experience 'full effects' seven days after a full week of MDxx use. Yet, I do agree that MDMA and MDA are not cross tolerant, simply because every time I've had an MDA pill - which hasn't been very often - they've been mind-blowing. MDMA is so run of the mill these days :)

For me MDA is significantly longer, more intense visually, and generally chargier. I rarely feel 'loved up' on MDMA these days anyway, so I much prefer MDA ;)
 
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