Harm Reduction Harm reduction RE: Long-term GBL usage

My friend suffers from depression. He is currently using GBL to self-medicate (0.5ml every 2 hours for 1 month now). He intends to take it indefinitely, or until it ceases to have a positive effect on his depression.

As he is going to be taking it for a long time, we believe it would be a good idea to be as safe as possible whilst taking it.

We're looking for ideas on how we could minimize any negative effects this will have on his body.

Here's what we came up with so far:

1. Convert GBL into NaGHB as we've read that it has a 'smoother' come up/down, lasts longer and it's not as 'harsh' on your body.
2. Finding the absolute minimum 'maintenance' dose. We've read that the minimum dose in order to feel anything is 0.3ml GBL, which is about 0.5g GHB, right?
3. Buying a capsule filling device and putting the GHB doses in gel caps as opposed to drinking the GBL, so there is less room for error when measuring out doses.

Any more ideas would be very much appreciated

Thanks

Well, the best thing for him would be to talk to a doctor, since this isn't the sort of thing a person can maintain.

I know GHB has its own mysterious receptor, but beyond that, is just another gabaergic depressant, and that means rapid tolerance and a nasty withdrawal. This is like treating depression with a shot of vodka every couple hours.

Converting GBL to GHB happens in your body on its own, and if a person takes it every two hours, I don't think they'll notice any difference. The molecular weights are almost identical, GHB having an extra oxygen is all there is, so you might as well consider the doses equivalent. Forgot about that damn sodium. GBL isn't a salt, but converting to the sodium salt of GHB means an extra oxygen and a heavy sodium, so there's actually a substantial 68% difference. So 0.68 grams GBL is equivalent to 1.0 grams Na-GHB.

If you're really worried about measuring error with aqueous GBL, you'd just make a bulk dilution, so you have the equivalent dose in, say, a shot glass, store the bottle in the fridge, pour a shot. Less error than pouring powder into caps.

But this is not a solution for depression.

I've tried exactly what you are describing. In fact I tried it with a bit more restraint, around 4 doses a day to treat depression. I highly recommend against it, and you'll regret it.

1)it stops working after around 3 months. At the 3 month point it was just causing sedation and anxiety relief, minimal mood boost.

2)you start to develop rebound anxiety and depression as the dose wears off. I found that this side effect got worse and worse to the point where on balance I was suffering more than when I wasn't taking GBL because of how vicious the rebound was. The depression on the rebound was horrific and would last around 1.5 hours or until I redosed, worse than my baseline depressed state (I have been diagnosed with severe depression, it leaves me bedbound often). With the amount of dosages per day, this was not sustainable.

3) I managed to develop a minor physical dependence despite only dosing during the day and not 24 hours. 5 days of constant panic attacks, no sleep (except for 2 hours of xanax induced sleep), auditory hallucinations etc.

4) because GBL is so short acting you're on a constant mental rollercoaster because the drug peaks and wears off too quickly. I found over time that this was making me feel extremely unstable and messed with my sanity. It's basically replicating an extreme form of bipolar disorder where you're never in one place mentally.

5) Either your appetite is going to suffer or you're going to have bad problems with dosing accurately. The difference in effectiveness and duration is massive on an empty stomach v. full stomach. This means that its extremely difficult to know what dosage to take. Personally this was a problem to the point where I wouldn't eat. If I ate, I would end up feeling barely anything, and then proceeding to take more. Sometimes this would cause me to G out which would never happen on an empty stomach (because I know my correct dosage on an empty stomach). Regular meals are very important for depression and mental health in general.

6) GHB/GBL agonises (binds to) the GABA B receptor. Studies have demonstrated that agonism of the GABA B receptor is implicated in the long term development of depression. This is also why GABA B antagonists have long-term antidepressant properties. This is also why the post acute withdrawal symptoms of GABA B drugs involve significant anhedonia and depression compared to GABA drugs like benzos or barbiturates. The latter tend to be more brutal as far as anxiety/panic go. So regular GBL use is likely to directly worsen your depression over time on a neurochemical level.

7) The full pharmacological spectrum of GBL is unknown. There are theories involving the opioid system and the dopaminergic system. If GBL acts on these systems, this could worsen depression over time as constant activation of both symptoms are associated with the development of depression (think cocaine, amphetamines and the sometimes months long depression they cause following discontinuation. 10% of patients that take opioids for pain therapeutically go on to develop depression). There is some evidence that it acts on oxytocin also. We do not know what nasty things consistent release of oxytocin can do. For what it's worth, MDMA is the only other major oxytocin releaser that I am aware of. And we all know what MDMA abuse leads to.... (yes I'm aware the serotonin affiliated effects are mostly responsible, but it's food for thought nonetheless).

I have however, developed a sustainable 'drug routine' to treat my treatment resistant depression. It no longer involves GBL.

^ that's a great post.
I have to echo the sentiments in both posts above - i don't think this is sustainable or safe, and i think it will only have harmful effects on your mental health in the medium to long term.
I think it's probably a good time to think about tapering, or seeing a doctor about helping you taper/detox. It sounds like it's only going to cause problems, from here.
GABAergics aren't usually a magic solution for very long. They start off that way, but in my experience it rarely lasts.
And rebound anxiety is usually so much worse than 'normal' anxiety.

I hope this doesn't sound like we're lecturing you, but i think the best HR to offer here is "please rethink this"

ayemsea, to your doctor about baclofen. Baclofen can have some of the same benefits as GBL/GHB but is more sustainable/safer long term. Just be careful when you transition off GBL (like, a bit of diazepam or clonazepam taper/detox would make that a lot safer).

Hmmm... interesting but also kinda disappointing. My friend thought he finally found a 'cure' for his sadness, but it sounds like he will be worse off in the long-run if he continues down this road.

Thanks for the replies. I think I might need to rethink this whole long-term GBL idea. I think it's time to start tapering off!

I have however, developed a sustainable 'drug routine' to treat my treatment resistant depression. It no longer involves GBL.

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Would you care to elaborate on this?

ayemsea, to your doctor about baclofen. Baclofen can have some of the same benefits as GBL/GHB but is more sustainable/safer long term. Just be careful when you transition off GBL (like, a bit of diazepam or clonazepam taper/detox would make that a lot safer).

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I'm willing to try, but would doctor really prescribe baclofen for depression? (wikipedia says balofen is used to treat spasticity)

^Using GBL to treat depression is absolutely not a sustainable long term solution. It's similar to stuff like alprazolam when it comes to managing something like depression (which doesn't work out too well), but the problems are more severe with GBL/GHB. As was said, after a certain point it will come back to bite you in the ass.

I'm curious to hear more about candidsurprise's response as well.

Have you ever tried ketamine or any dissociatives ayemsea? That would be worth exploring if you're struggling with depression.

Nope, the only dissociative I've tried have been large doses of diphenhydramine, but it wasn't exactly a pleasurable experience. -.-

I had made a plan to taper off by 10% every week on Monday, and I have everything set up like a lab in my kitchen with oral syringes, droppers and stuff, so I can be as accurate as possible.

Seems to be going well so far., and I'm documenting everything in .txt files on my PC; keeping logs of when I took what, how much, how I feel .etc, more just for my records really, but I might upload it to wordpress or something in the future (someone could find it useful perhaps?)

Seems to be going well so far =) Thanks for the info!

p.s sorry about all the "my friend" stuff btw, but I didn't want to get banned or something for not doing that weird SWIM thing people do sometimes~

My current rotation is like this:

Day 1: Very low dose methamphetamine
Day 2: Phenibut
Day 3: Tramadol medium dose
Day 4: Tramadol
Day 5: Tramadol
Day 6: Tramadol
Day 7: Phenibut

And then 6 days off. That gives me a week completely depression free. The other 6 days you just have to accept and try and ride through them as best you can. I also use daily tianeptine as my antidepressant and I do a week of therapeutic doses of ketamine once a month.

What is the equivalent dose of GBL/GHB?

I want to stop talking GBL, and take GHB instead which is less harmful.

I prepared some NaGHB by following these instructions from Erowid:

Dissolve 130 grams (3.25 moles) of pure sodium hydroxide in 400ml of tap water in a 1000ml glass container while stirring with a glass rod or similar. The dissolution is exothermic, and the solution will heat up. When everything has dissolved to form a clear solution, slowly add 250ml (280 g, 3.25 moles) of gamma-butyrolactone in 50 ml portions with good stirring. The addition of gamma-butyrolactone to the sodium hydroxide solution is also exothermic, and if it is added too fast the solution will begin to boil, and we don't want that. Keep track of the temperature with an immersed thermometer. The addition of the gamma-butyrolactone will take somewhere between 20-30 minutes. When everything has been added, let the mixture react for an additional 10 minutes with occasional stirring.


Now it is time to see if the reaction has gone to completion by checking the pH with universal pH paper. We are aiming for a pH of 7-8. If it is too high (pH > 8), then add 10 ml of gamma-butyrolactone and let react for a few minutes more. If the pH is too low (pH < 7), add a few ml of concentrated NaOH solution. Continue like this until the pH level is within the desired limits.


The solution is perfectly clear and tastes slightly salty. It may be slightly yellow colored, but not much if pure enough butyrolactone was used (distillation of the lactone before use takes care of this problem). If an acid is used to neutralize a too basic a solution (instead of adding more lactone), crystals of the sodium salt of the acid can precipitate in the solution, and the taste is severely impaired. The final solution will be around 750 mL 50% NaGHB. The solution can be concentrated (by boiling off excess water) to ~600mL without it crystallizing at room temp, but if concentrating as far as to ~500 mL it will invariably solidify.

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So, now I have some NaGHB with pH 7;

How do I know how much GHB to take? I've heard that GBL is 1.6x stronger than GHB, and I usually take 0.5 mL of GBL every 2 hours, so would that mean I need to take 0.8ml of GHB instead?

Also, if GHB has less bioavailability, would it be prudent to take slightly more to compensate for that? or perhaps plugging it is a better option...?

I can't imagine the bioavailability is any different between the two.

But yes, there's a ~66% mass difference between them: the "strengths" are the same, you just have to include the weight of the sodium with the GHB. So 1 gram of GBL is equivalent to 1.6 grams of GHB.

You can only compare volumes with pure liquids or identical concentrations (or math). Based on your protocol, you can perhaps assume ~50% NaGHB solution. But I don't know what your GBL concentration was.

You cannot compare without that information.

If you don't know what I mean, just start your dosing over from scratch with your GHB, titrating your dose up from very tiny to roughly where you were.

I've never done used GBL but I have heard that ironically it is much stronger than Ghb and hits faster... even though its a prodrug. weird.

It's not "stronger" exactly. Weight for weight it's more potent, because in the conversion to GHB each GBL molecule gains an oxygen atom and a sodium atom (which isn't really attached, but you get the idea). Those add weight to the GHB molecule. So for the same number of molecules, a gram of GBL suddenly weighs 1.6 grams as GHB.

So, if your usual dose of GHB was a gram, and you decided to take a gram of GBL, you'd actually be getting almost twice the actual molecules, which would feel "strong and really hitting fast" if you weren't expecting it.

NaGHB Soap / Wax -- what now?

So I followed this info on Erowid, but I left it on the heat too long and most of the water evaporated, so then I was left with a load of waxy residue in my 1000 ml beaker

Is that pure GHB, or what? I was hoping it create powder GHB or crystal, but I don't know what this is

Is 1g of GHB wax/soap, the same as 1g of GHB crystal? and if not, what can i do to ensure it would be equivalent? i was thinking maybe if i can get rid of all of the water, maybe through evaporation or something...not sure how to do that though :/

Anyway, I melted it again and put it into an air tight HDPE bottle until I can figure out what to do with it.

Any advice would be appreciated, please

I just wanted to make a less harmful way of taking GBL

(I'm merging all your GHB threads, btw. Try to just update in the threads you already started, instead of creating new ones. They still get bumped if that's what you're after.)

You're not saving yourself any harm by converting to GHB. The GBL gets turned into GHB pretty darn quick in your body.

Anyway, if you followed the procedure exactly as it was written, you will have NaGHB crystals. I guess if they're "waxy" looking, it's because they're still pretty wet. You can just add water and stir to get back to where you were, or let them dry completely and store the powder.

Of course, you already added water. I'd check the pH again just to see if you did something weird. Like "melt" the waxy residue. I'm kind of terrified about what that means, and assume you meant "just added water and heat, and stirred."

Using any drugs for depression is bad idea, it will backlash very nasty way after a while. In my experience and according to studies anti-depressants are also pretty much useless, they even can make the depression worse, maybe 1/10 of people they might have postive effects and even then it just might be placebo. I've found only meditation and exercising to help depression, also some fast ways to cure might be psychedelics and ketamine. GBL is also nasty because you have to take it so often and when used over 6 months and quitting cold turkey you might even die, if he insist to use drugs for depression than phenibut is much better choice, it has very long half-life, you only need to take it once a day and you get good sleep too.

SOME studies say SOME anti-depressants are no better than SOME placebos for SOME people sometimes.

Phenibut half-life is kind of confusing, probably in the five-hour range for low doses, and maybe longer for chronic users. I guess the Russians never translated their studies on it.

Something like phenibut/baclofen or gabapentin or pre-gabalin might help with GHB abuse. Based only on its vague boozy GABAergic-ness.