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Misc Agmantine Sulfate for Kratom tolerance/potentiation

FlawedByDesign

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
1,894
I was wondering if anyone here had any experience using agmantine to mitigate tolerance to M. Speciosa? There is a good bit of info on reddit but most of it pertains to it being used as a nootropic. I assume it reduces tolerance in the same way other NDmA antagonists do. Plan to stack it with phenylpiracetam as well for the ultimate pre-workout. Would love to hear from anyone who has used it along side opioids.

Edit:Would stacking this with low dose Memantine decrease tolerance to a greater extent than either one on their own?
 
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I've also been wondering reading about this lately.

I actually have some which should be arriving in the mail in a few days so I'll let you know how it works when I try it.

I've also been hearing about people using black pepper corns and tumeric for the same purpose which I've never heard any mention of on here, though I don't know why but for some reason that sounds like something I'm pretty skeptical about but I might be willing to try out of boredom.
 
The black pepper is to increase curcumin bioavailability, is all. Not related to drug tolerance, just that curcumin basically cures every disease plus a few unknown diseases in the test tube, but any supplements go right through and down the toilet. I tried making a paste of black pepper, olive oil and turmeric and like smearing it on toast, but it still just tastes like you're eating a paste of turmeric.

Agmatine sounds pretty interesting. Besides looking like a de-acidified arginine, it makes me think of metformin. A lot of compounds like that never get taken up by the brain though, they're made on-site. Monoamines can get wiped out by first pass metabolism. And messing with NMDA receptors can be dangerous. Just my first thoughts, I'll have to look this up.

I notice it blocks nitric oxide synthesis. Which, you realize, could mean no more boners, and less worryingly, more angina or heart attacks.
 
^I would’ve thought the opposite as a lot of reviewers praise it as a good pre workout supplement due to the “pump” it causes. It actually sounds like some people take it as a replacement for nitric oxide before lifting weights. That is somewhat worrisome though as I already experience angina from caffeine. Will definitely start small.

Edit: there are actually some bodybuilding websites that market it for the production of nitric oxide. Not disagreeing, as I’m sure it works in a way that is beyond my depth. Just curious about using it as a pre workout In addition to mitigating tolerance.
 
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I'm just basing that on this chart from wikipedia (sorry, I know it's huge, but it'd take like five whole minutes to resize), and it show agmatine inhibiting nitric oxide synthase. But then, I've always thought the PED folks were weird with their lust for NO. Anyway, we can keep the "does it help tolerance/potentiate Kratom" part of it in this forum.

I don't see how it (supplements) could help psychologically, since I doubt it would lead to increased levels in the brain. Maybe with somatic effects.

Wikipedia-Agmatine_Metabolic_Pathways.jpg
 
The black pepper is to increase curcumin bioavailability, is all. Not related to drug tolerance, just that curcumin basically cures every disease plus a few unknown diseases in the test tube, but any supplements go right through and down the toilet. I tried making a paste of black pepper, olive oil and turmeric and like smearing it on toast, but it still just tastes like you're eating a paste of turmeric.

Agmatine sounds pretty interesting. Besides looking like a de-acidified arginine, it makes me think of metformin. A lot of compounds like that never get taken up by the brain though, they're made on-site. Monoamines can get wiped out by first pass metabolism. And messing with NMDA receptors can be dangerous. Just my first thoughts, I'll have to look this up.

I notice it blocks nitric oxide synthesis. Which, you realize, could mean no more boners, and less worryingly, more angina or heart attacks.


Wait, so are you saying that taking agmantine could be dangerous?!

If so I won't do it.

Also, I use Lexapro and Klonopin.

Does it have adverse effects with either of those?

Is it an MAOI? Cause if so I know I need to steer clear cause of the Lexapro.

I should have asked about safety, but if this isn't something safe to take then I won't.

I'm not messing with anything that can lead to heart attacks for christ sakes.

You seemed to say this so casually and jokingly that i wasn't even sure if it was meant to take seriously LOL...
 
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^I assume that it’s no more dangerous than other vasodilators such as L-arginine. I read on another site that it inhibits nitric oxide production causing the “pump” effects to last longer. Similar to the way Tagamet or GFJ inhibits the enzyme and causes most opiates and benzos to last longer. Thanks for all the info guys. Should have this in a few days and will report back after enough time had passed to see if it does indeed affect my tolerance.
 
Agmatine itself was a weak analgesic which enhanced analgesic action of morphine and inhibited tolerance to and dependence on opioid. The main mechanisms of agmatine were related to inhibition of the adaptation of opioid receptor signal transduction induced by chronic treatment of opioid.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12852826

def report back as it might be a better option than Memantine which requires a prescription and is a bit more drastic for NMDA antagonism. DXM is just to "messy" with the disso effect for similar NMDAr antagonism.
 
Wait, so are you saying that taking agmantine could be dangerous?!

I'm not messing with anything that can lead to heart attacks for christ sakes.

You seemed to say this so casually and jokingly that i wasn't even sure if it was meant to take seriously LOL...

Well, that's cause I'd only just heard about it yesterday.

I can't speak for safety, beyond that it's sold as a supplement, and those are usually more ineffective than dangerous.

For those talking about vasodilation, all I know is that the chart posted twice here shows agmatine should do the OPPOSITE, or at least, inhibit NO-induced vasoconstriction.

I don't know why the bodybuilders like NO so much, hallucinating that arginine makes their veins "pop-out" or something, but as a short-lived gas, it's not something you can "take". Instead, drugs like nitroglycerin are used to release NO, to stop chest-pains from coronary artery blockages. Drugs like Viagara require release of NO to work. They cause the signal promoted by NO to persist longer.

(In other words, people with angina don't carry arginine in little metal vials around their necks, and porn stars don't eat arginine.)

If there's a subtle effect on vasodilation from taking arginine, then there'll be a subtle effect BLOCKING vasodilation (caused by NO, there are other causes) when taking agmatine. But in all I think agmatine supplements are safe for humans, because most effects could be found with placebo.
 
^Very interesting stuff, thanks! I’ve taken things with NO in it and never really noticed a difference but I’m vascular to the point that it grosses me out. I understand that getting the blood flowing will enhance performance but I don’t know why people go for that look specifically, if anything it makes me self conscious.
 
Well, that's cause I'd only just heard about it yesterday.

I can't speak for safety, beyond that it's sold as a supplement, and those are usually more ineffective than dangerous.

For those talking about vasodilation, all I know is that the chart posted twice here shows agmatine should do the OPPOSITE, or at least, inhibit NO-induced vasoconstriction.

I don't know why the bodybuilders like NO so much, hallucinating that arginine makes their veins "pop-out" or something, but as a short-lived gas, it's not something you can "take". Instead, drugs like nitroglycerin are used to release NO, to stop chest-pains from coronary artery blockages. Drugs like Viagara require release of NO to work. They cause the signal promoted by NO to persist longer.

(In other words, people with angina don't carry arginine in little metal vials around their necks, and porn stars don't eat arginine.)

If there's a subtle effect on vasodilation from taking arginine, then there'll be a subtle effect BLOCKING vasodilation (caused by NO, there are other causes) when taking agmatine. But in all I think agmatine supplements are safe for humans, because most effects could be found with placebo.

Hmmm, ok, I'm kind of dense when it comes to this stuff lol.

I just heard you mention heart attacks and losing the ability to get a boner haha.

So....are you saying if I try it with some Kratom I'm NOT taking a big risk, even with being on Lexapro and Klonopin?

Is it an MAOI?

And why did you mention heart attacks if it's safe?

I'm sorry but all this just went over my head.
 
I should have been more careful in my wording.

It is not an MAO inhibitor, although it is a monoamine.

I don't believe there's a risk with other drugs, because I doubt it ever enters your brain--it's made on-site inside your brain, like other neurotransmitters. Instead, I've been talking about what supplements might do to your body.

Arginine is an amino acid, present in all proteins, that you eat everyday. If you take the "acid" part off and keep the "amino" part, you get agmatine. Agmatine appears to work a bit like a neurotransmitter in the brain, and since it antagonizes NMDA receptors, may help prevent the development of tolerance to certain drugs, but as a supplement wouldn't effect this process.

Supplements might effect more peripheral nervous system responses, and help opiates block pain sensations, but I think that is separate from psychological, subjective feelings. I don't think supplemental agmatine would have any interaction with benzos or opiates where they usually concern drug users.

It also has a different role in the body. Arginine, besides being an amino acid building block of proteins, is part of a system that recycles and packages nitrogen waste for removal. That's the urea cycle. Agmatine is part of that, and it exists in a balancing act with arginine. Too much arginine, and your cells make agmatine; too much agmatine, and your body makes arginine.

Then there's nitric oxide signalling. Nitric oxide, NO (not to be confused with the nitrous oxide N2O that your dentist uses) is an unstable, radical gas produced by a stimulus, released into the blood, that causes localized vasodilation. In other words, sexy person strokes your penis, nitric oxide is released, smooth muscle relaxes, blood flows in, you get a boner. Viagara keeps that signal "on".

If a person has clogged arteries that reduce blood flow to the heart, and they feel chest pain (angina) as a prelude to a heart attack, they can take a drug like nitroglycerin that is broken down into nitric oxide in the blood. This dilates those heart blood vessels, and allows more blood to reach the heart, and reduce pain.

Here's the leap in logic: arginine is the precursor to nitric oxide. Bodybuilders have been told that if they eat arginine supplements, it will produce NO and cause vasodilation. That vasodilation will make their veins get bigger and impress/intimidate sexual competitors. There's no reason to think that could happen, since NO production happens in response to a signal, not concentration of arginine. The supplement packaging also never mentions it gives you boners, which it would if that mechanism was real. It would also cause your blood pressure to drop, making you faint, and would kill you if combined with Viagara. So I was making a subtle jab at the bodybuilders, who IMO are taking snake oil. NO is degraded in a matter of seconds or less in your bloodstream, and can't be contained in a supplement. Compounds that break down into NO are obviously prescription-only, since they cause serious side effects, besides strokes and hemorrhage you'd probably at least have a pounding headache.

So, worse for them would be to take agmatine along with their arginine, since if it worked the way they think arginine works, it would BLOCK the effects and prevent vasodilation and poofy bicep veins. They'd be spending money on snake oil that prevents their other snake oil from working.

Now, I don't think it will do much of anything in supplement form. This is stuff you eat everyday, it's in cheese, and your body is very good at preventing food from causing profound effects on your vasculature. No ones gets an MDMA high from eating a hamburger patty, even though it's loaded with phenylalanine, tyrosine, and tryptophan, all precursors for dopamine and serotonin. Instead, I think taking agmatine supplements will just lead to rapid conversion into arginine, and you'll never notice anything.

If you suffered from impotence, taking an enormous amount of agmatine might prevent your Viagara from working for a while. But other than that, I don't think it would effect your health, or that it's worth anyone's money. I should have been more clear that I was making fun of an entire industry.


EDIT: I was also lazy on the angina thing: since nitroglycerin breaks down to produce NO all by itself, it shouldn't be affected by arginine or agmatine. And the coronary artery blockage isn't caused by a lack of NO, but cholesterol scar tissue, so these two supplements don't really have anything to do with it. I bring it up to body builders because they don't see the connection between NO and old people with chest pain or boners, and usually don't take it well.
 
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^^^^^^

Ok, so you DON'T think agmantine is unsafe to take, because you don't think it will do much at all.

Got it.

Actually I'm annoyed because the vendor I ordered it from along with some Kratom apparently forgot but gave me an extra Kratom sample anyway so I guess that makes up for it.

Off topic, but I noticed you mentioned Phenylalanine and I recently read an article by someone who thinks that supplementing with Phenylalanine can help with caffeine withdrawals, and since I'm trying to cut down I've used it a few times and did in fact THINK I had fewer caffeine cravings/WD but I'm wondering if perhaps it was placebo.

Do you think there's any reason that Phenylalanine supplementation would help with caffeine withdrawal or do you think that's far fetched?

The idea of course being, that as a precursor to dopamine and with caffeine (I guess?) helping to spike dopamine, that I guess you'd feel you needed it less?

I don't know anything about this kind of stuff but it seems like you do.

Thanks
 
I washed out after six years of biochem doctoral ed, and worked in biotech, so I pretend like I understand how all this stuff works. Of course I don't, and there's all kinds of weird pathways still being discovered. So don't let my tirades be a substitute for your own research or, for things that are mostly harmless, personal anecdote. Of course, if you do find new research, point it out to me.

Caffeine blocks adenosine receptors in your brain. Adenosine slowly builds up while you're awake, and gets cleared away while you sleep. Going cold turkey on caffeine would make your brain think it hadn't gotten enough sleep, making you cranky. Thinks like headaches might be from vasodilation--caffeine gets added to drugs like Excedrin because it helps constrict blood vessels. So I don't think there's any reason to think dopamine is that involved with caffeine withdrawal. Maybe with addiction to it, but addiction has nothing to do with the sorts of dopamine depletion that meth users worry about, just dopamine signalling.

And, there's no reason to believe eating dopamine precursors increases dopamine signalling. If it did, eating a steak would give you a rush like meth. L-Dopa, a medication for Parkinson's disease, can increase dopamine reserves, but it's prescription-only* for that reason. And that's in people who have a dopamine disease. 5-HTP, the serotonin precursor beloved by MDMA users, has been shown to do nothing for your serotonin signalling, and may make depression worse by forcing a downshift in dopamine production.

So I'm positive phenylalanine (and tyrosine) supplements have no benefit for meth users, and pretty sure it wouldn't help caffeine withdrawal. But, supplements are cheap and generally safe, there's no reason not to try it out.

*You can find L-Dopa supplements, but if you notice, it's extract from some plant that is high in natural L-Dopa. If it was rich in L-Dopa enough to have effects, it wouldn't be sold OTC because the side effects would start class-action suits. Plus it wouldn't make your meth high any better anyway.
 
Fun Fact: If you ever read the back of a diet coke can it has a warning that states: Phenylketonurics - contains phenylalanine, this is found in aspartame and a myriad of other sources. Phenylketonurics refers to people with Phenylketonuria, or PKU, an enzyme deficiency and must eat a low protein diet and avoid Phenylalanine which is an essential amino acid and is found in nearly all foods which contain protein: meat (of all kinds), dairy products, nuts, beans, tofu,sugar-free candies/gum, the list goes on and on.
People with PKU get a build up of phenylpyruvic acid from Phenylanine but other than this small group with PKU, it harmless in it's natural form (vs aspartame but that's another story.)Some researchers claim that the amino acid phenylalanine is a natural muscle relaxer and sleep aid, rumored to possibly be why turkey, which is a high phenylalanine food, always seems to make people sleepy (in addition to the amino acid tryptophan, which is also a natural sleep aid). The caffeine w/d thing seems less plausible considering the aforementioned info but like Scrof said it's best to research and decide for yourself.
 
That phenylalanine in your diet coke comes from Aspartame. Which comes from aspartic acid and phenylalanine, which are two amino acids.

And yet people all over the internet will tell you of the horrible things aspartame does to you, cause of the poison it breaks down into. Except it breaks down into two amino acids. We know it breaks down into phenylalanine cause there's a damn warning label on the can (which is sadly ironic, because if you have PKU, you're probably too impaired to be able to read the label). Given tens of milligram amounts of phenylalanine in diet coke, you'd have even less reason to buy the supplements if that was your favorite beverage.

[Struggling to find a relevant On Topic Point]:Sometimes you can reason out the likelihood of a supplement's claim, without needing much special knowledge.
 
I don't know... sometimes when I feel like eating my body weight worth of Aspartame I wonder if those truthers might be on to something...
 
See, it's the chem trails making you think that. That's what they want you to do. Chem trails brought down WTC 7 so the vaccine industry could put aspartame in our kale, and now we're all infected with those things the "doctors" call Morgellon's disease.

All cause we ate too much arginine and our bicep veins started popping out. That's what they feed on, is NO-induced vasodilated bicep artery blood. But they can only do it when you sleep, otherwise you notice these swarms of insects crawling on you. Solution: meth! Never sleep again, never have your swolen bicep veins be food for delusional parasites ever again.
 
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