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BA
16-04-2003, 23:32
(Mississippi) A Lowndes County couple have been jailed on drug charges after their daughter reported them to sheriff's deputies.

Lowndes County narcotics agent Tim Howell said Shawn Harrison, 37, and his wife, Nancy, 34, along with Stoney Ray, 36, were arrested Sunday on charges of the manufacture and possession of methamphetamine.

Howell said the Harrison's 14-year-old girl alerted police after she said she saw her mother and stepfather begin producing the drugs in their home.

Howell said deputies found two methamphetamine labs and confiscated the drug-producing materials.

Howell said investigators had already been looking into the couple's activities based on leads from informants and anonymous tips.

"We knew who they were," Howell said. "We've been investigating them for about eight months."

Howell said lawmen got a search warrant after Shawn and Nancy Harrison refused to allow an inspection of their residence.

He said officers found the materials used to make methamphetamines and also obtained information that led to the execution of a second warrant for Ray's home, where methamphetamine was found along with materials to make it.

Authorities said the manufacturing of methamphetamine can carry a maximum sentence of 30 years, which could be doubled when there are juveniles present while drugs are being manufactured.

Story link (http://www.clarionledger.com/news/0304/16/m15.html)
4.16.2003

Love In Vein
17-04-2003, 00:53
I hope that girls parents get some SERIOUS help.

You don't do that kind of shit when you're raising a kid. Period.

craig420
17-04-2003, 05:30
Some day that girl will grow up and realize that she singlehandedly wrecked her own life and that of her parents. It sickens me to see kids who have more allegiance to a misguided war on drugs than they have to their own parents.

Sure, it was irresponsible of the parents to be doing what they were, but their victimless crime is not deserving of what they are about to receive as a punishment.

And as for the "serious" help you say the parents need...they're headed to prison. Do you really think they're going to receive that sort of help in prison?

shezinphx
17-04-2003, 05:45
I disagree. I beleive the parents are 100% wrong! I mean what kind of parent are you raising a teenager who knows what's going on and not only doing drugs, but making them?
It was probally more than just turning her parents in, it was the lifestyle she wanted to get out of. It would of only gotten worse if she didn't turn them in. Now she's better off not being around it and it serves her parents right.

AfterGlow
17-04-2003, 08:52
The parents shouldn't be exposing their 14 year old child to that sort of thing. It's too bad the kid didn't have some other family or friends she could have turned to instead of turning her parents in.

Petersko
17-04-2003, 17:26
Some day that girl will grow up and realize that she singlehandedly wrecked her own life and that of her parents. It sickens me to see kids who have more allegiance to a misguided war on drugs than they have to their own parents.

Sure, it was irresponsible of the parents to be doing what they were, but their victimless crime is not deserving of what they are about to receive as a punishment.

I agree with the 'forgotten' on this one. It was not victimless. It was irresponsible, horrible parenting.

Even besides the toxic vapours and unhealthy environment, like it or not, mistakes happen and labs burn down. It happened in my home town not long ago.

Also, they are placing her in a position where, at any time, she could be deprived of both parents for the long term. What kind of parenting involves such dramatic risk to the family unit?

Whether or not you agree with the laws they broke, they had no business risking the health and emotional welfare of their daughter in such a fashion.

Also, you only think its victimless until you meet enough cracked out meth addicts.

CompTA
17-04-2003, 20:30
We all know that the parents were wrong for exposing their child to that, but I think the child was wrong for turning her parents in. I have to believe that she had another option besides sending her parents away to prison. I agree with craig420 on everything but the victimless crime part. This girl wrecked her parents life and probably her own too.

BA
17-04-2003, 21:53
I wonder, if and when the police nabbed them, if they would try the girl as an accomplice. Since she knew of the illegal acts, and willingly did nothing to prevent/stop it?

FallenThistle
18-04-2003, 07:56
Howell said lawmen got a search warrant after Shawn and Nancy Harrison refused to allow an inspection of their residence.

This implies that they got a search warrent because they refused a search. How exactly is that legal - they would have had to have had other evidence correct?

Yah I think that the parents were messed up for doing that around a child - however they are probably going to spend the rest of their lives in prison, and thats unacceptable - how does that help anyone including the young girl?

Frunobulax
18-04-2003, 19:33
Originally posted by BlueAdonis
I wonder, if and when the police nabbed them, if they would try the girl as an accomplice. Since she knew of the illegal acts, and willingly did nothing to prevent/stop it?

that would never hold up, because she did turn them in, and there's no proving how long someone was aware of something.

DrEIMiller
18-04-2003, 21:08
It's already been said, but to echo the sentiment, this most certainly was not a victimless crime. That girl was a victim - psychologically and emotionally.

craig420
19-04-2003, 08:06
Originally posted by forgotten
It wasn't a victimless crime. The child was probably being exposed to all sorts of chemichal vapors, hazardous waste, etc. Backwoods Mississippi meth labs are hardly safe for experienced meth cooks, let alone a 14 year old girl.


Originally posted by Petersko
I agree with the 'forgotten' on this one. It was not victimless. It was irresponsible, horrible parenting.

Even besides the toxic vapours and unhealthy environment, like it or not, mistakes happen and labs burn down. It happened in my home town not long ago.


I think you guys are all jumping to conclusions based upon stereotypes put forward by the conservative media outlets. Nowhere in the artical did it mention that a lab was anywhere on the premises. Without said lab, there are no toxic vapors, no hazardous waste, and no threat of an explosion. The article mentions they found "materials used to make methamphetamines"...this is NOT the same as a lab; what this translates to is the cops found some pseudoephedrine and some iodine or something similar. If they had found a lab, you can bet your ass they would have mentioned it in the article.
As for dealing and conspircy to manufacture, I will stand by my previous statement that that is a victimless crime. Rape, murder, assault, theft, fraud, drunk driving...those are crimes with discernible victims. But dealing drugs is not something that in and of itself creates a victim...the only reason that this would create a "harmful" environment for the child is because the drug in question is illegal. There is nothing inherently bad in the activity itself.
To make this point clearer, take something that is currently legal and recreate the same situation. Take pizza for instance...many parents have pizza in the freezer and perhaps all the fixings in order to make a pizza in the house. These in and of themselves are not harmful and do not create a harmful environment. Now, if you make pizza illegal, then the possession of the pizza and the elements for making a pizza would be considered a victimless crime. A child in that house with the illegal pizza and pizza paraphanalia may very well be in harm due to the illegality of the pizza...but that does not make them a victim of the crime itself. Understand?
Now, some of you may say that methamphetamine is much different because it is addictive. However, this is also a moot point. Tobacco and alcohol are addictive but you wouldn't claim that any child in a house with any amount of tobacco or alcohol are victims (or would you). It is possible to use methamphetamine (or any drug for that matter) responsibly.


Originally posted by Petersko
Also, they are placing her in a position where, at any time, she could be deprived of both parents for the long term. What kind of parenting involves such dramatic risk to the family unit?


So the risk that you claim was posed to her was the possibility that she could lose her parents. Yet, she is the one that precipitated her to actually lose them. Irony?

Symmetrical Daze
19-04-2003, 20:41
"Howell said lawmen got a search warrant after Shawn and Nancy Harrison refused to allow an inspection of their residence."

Those idiots deserve getting busted. They should have got rid of the stuff since they were already being investigated.

Petersko
20-04-2003, 04:16
So the risk that you claim was posed to her was the possibility that she could lose her parents. Yet, she is the one that precipitated her to actually lose them. Irony?

Does the fact that she turned in her parents somehow make their actions right?

BA
20-04-2003, 06:38
It's hard for me to say what the "right thing to do" is here, its a tough call. I think the girl will understand just what has happened when shes living with her foster parents visiting her real parents on the weekends in the county jail.

Love In Vein
20-04-2003, 08:47
We all know that the parents were wrong for exposing their child to that, but I think the child was wrong for turning her parents in. I have to believe that she had another option besides sending her parents away to prison. I agree with craig420 on everything but the victimless crime part. This girl wrecked her parents life and probably her own too.

What were her other options?

Do you think she could have honestly just talked to them or something? Her parents obviously weren't very rational to set up a lab in their own home - on top of having a 14 year old daughter they're suppossed to be parenting - exposing her to an extremely dangerous environment like that. And it's probably very safe to assume these people weren't just synthesizing methamphetamine, they were probably using it as well. Have you ever tried to talk sense to longtime meth addicts? Please.

This girl didn't ruin her parent's lives. They ruined their own lives. They're adults. They are responsible for their actions.

And how could you begin to figure she wrecked her own life? She got herself out of a horrible situation.

On top of all the dangers of simply having a methlab in the home because of the volatile nature of the chemicals used, what if they had been the target of a robbery or something? Or what if her parents ended up being investigated anyways and the cops busted in the house pointing guns to her head while raiding the place?

I get the impression that some people here are only concerned about making their point about the war on drugs or their point about the penalties for drug convictions or whatever other point they want to make and aren't at all considering what an ordeal this innocent 14 year old girl has been through.

Not that I think parents should be involved with the manufacture of any type of illegal drugs, period. But I can see where it'd be one thing if her parents were growing a few pot plants. It's quite another thing when you're synthesizing an extremely addictive drug (with an extremely low recovery rate) that has the potential to completely destroy a person both physically and mentally.

Love In Vein
20-04-2003, 09:21
Nowhere in the artical did it mention that a lab was anywhere on the premises.

Try reading the article again.

"Howell said the Harrison's 14-year-old girl alerted police after she said she saw her mother and stepfather begin producing the drugs in their home."


As for dealing and conspircy to manufacture, I will stand by my previous statement that that is a victimless crime. Rape, murder, assault, theft, fraud, drunk driving...those are crimes with discernible victims. But dealing drugs is not something that in and of itself creates a victim...the only reason that this would create a "harmful" environment for the child is because the drug in question is illegal.

The methamphetamine being illegal was only one factor in this child being brought up in a "harmful" environment.

And obviously the girl recognized that her situation was so bad that she was willing to turn her parents into the police.


Now, some of you may say that methamphetamine is much different because it is addictive. However, this is also a moot point. Tobacco and alcohol are addictive but you wouldn't claim that any child in a house with any amount of tobacco or alcohol are victims (or would you).

Compare and contrast a methamphetamine addict to someone addicted to tobacco or alcohol.

Compare and contrast the effects of methamphetamine to the effects of tobacco or alcohol.

And a child being raised by an alcoholic parent can most certainly be in an abusive or harmful situation depending on the circumstances.


It is possible to use methamphetamine (or any drug for that matter) responsibly.

It's obvious that when you're manufacturing methamphetamine from your own home while raising (or not raising) a 14 year old child that you're not responsible. End of story.


So the risk that you claim was posed to her was the possibility that she could lose her parents. Yet, she is the one that precipitated her to actually lose them. Irony?

She hasn't lost her parents for good. And this way there's a chance they might be functional enough to be decent parents later on in her life.

Love In Vein
20-04-2003, 09:23
Those idiots deserve getting busted. They should have got rid of the stuff since they were already being investigated.

If the police came to the door and a consented search was refused, they probably had an officer wait at the scene to prevent the suspects from destroying evidence while another officer awaited the warrant to be faxed to the cop car parked out front.

Love In Vein
20-04-2003, 09:28
It's hard for me to say what the "right thing to do" is here, its a tough call. I think the girl will understand just what has happened when shes living with her foster parents visiting her real parents on the weekends in the county jail.

Having known a few people in similar situations:

1) she'll probably be living with a relative or relatives or family friends. this is real life, not a tv show.

2) she probably wants absolutely nothing to do with her parents any time soon until they've sobered up for a while and get themselves mentally put together again.

blah
20-04-2003, 17:42
Love in vein, you make it sound like they were making anthrax in their home.
What a very tragic situation this is,its one thing to be addicted to drugs(disease) and its another to be put in jail by your own daughter, maybe because she was having a bad day?

If it wasn't for the war on drugs this wouldn't have happened in the first place. If it was merely, that the child would be placed in suitable care, and the parents had to attend drug rehabilitation then it would be quite reasonable that the girl would 'inform' upon her own parents. Being 14, she would no doubt understand that they could be going to jail for a very long time. Poor girl, she will probably regret this for the rest of her life. But really, just an innocent girl caught in in the 'war on drugs'.

Love In Vein
20-04-2003, 19:42
What a very tragic situation this is,its one thing to be addicted to drugs(disease) and its another to be put in jail by your own daughter, maybe because she was having a bad day?


It's really obvious you've never hung out at a methlab and really don't know what you're talking about.

If you want to have your opinions, fine. But get some perspective on things.

Otherwise nice families don't just happen to cook meth on the side.


If it wasn't for the war on drugs this wouldn't have happened in the first place.

The war on drugs doesn't matter here. Her parents would have been arrested and imprisoned in a country with a liberal attitude on drugs all the same. There aren't countries that tolerate amatuer chemists synthesizing drugs in the home. Especially when it puts the child in danger and shows a complete lack of regard for the child.


If it was merely, that the child would be placed in suitable care, and the parents had to attend drug rehabilitation then it would be quite reasonable that the girl would 'inform' upon her own parents. Being 14, she would no doubt understand that they could be going to jail for a very long time.

She will get suitable care. And her parents will have to go through drug rehabilitation along with parenting counseling before they get their daughter back on top of a stint in prison.

This is more than just a drug crime. You've got endangerment of a child and neglect. On top of it being really safe to assume that her parents were abusive.


Poor girl, she will probably regret this for the rest of her life. But really, just an innocent girl caught in in the 'war on drugs'.

It's really disgusting you're going to pretend like you care about the girl when all you care about is using this story to support your beliefs that the war on drugs is wrong.

psychetool
20-04-2003, 20:10
I believe this girl did the right thing. Meth ravages your mind, body and soul IMO. Using hard drugs around young, impressionable children is simply stupid and wrong.

You say she singlehandedly wrecked her life and her parents ?

I say her parents are the ones who fucked up their life, and hers. Think about how fucking STUPID you would have to be to leave equipment to make meth laying around your house when there is a child present. Many of the chemicals used are very dangerous and flammable.

I have spoken to many people who grew up with drug addicted parents and not one of them had a 'good' childhood. Many addicted parents don't mind leaving their children to fend for themself for days while their out on a binge, especially once their of an age which they can take care of their own food and getting to school.

Personally I think she will have a better chance of blooming to be a well rounded person growing up with her foster family rather then with her tweeker parents.

The police already had them under investigation - so I doubt it would have been that long before they were busted anyways.

It sure would take a lot for me to call the cops on my parents - but having my parents producing meth would DEFINITLY warrent a call to the police.

My heart goes out to that poor girl. :(

Psychetool

blah
21-04-2003, 04:51
Love in vein, can you provide any proof that the parents were being abusive? Or is it just an assumption? Safe to assume? How come? Maybe you make too many assumptions?

Had these parents been chronic alcoholics they wouldn't be going to jail. And they could make alcohol in their own homes no problem. And many things are flammable.

I suppose you would also support narking in your own parents if they were growing a little marijauna in their house aswell? I mean it supports terorism8) Because of people like you, it is becomming not uncommon for children to nark on their own parents.

And I will say, I do not for one moment condone what the parents did, but to suggest for one moment that jailing them is going to help is simply proposterous.

If I assumed anything, it would be that the parents were 'addicts',victims of a 'disease' of which they desperately needed help,not punitive action.
And instead of prostituting themselves or stealing, lieing and cheating, they took the more logical option.

Whether you realise it or not, you are fuel for the 'war on drugs'. Having sucked in all the propoganda you now perpetuate the myth that criminal sanctions can some how reduce the prevalence of drug abuse in society, where as the complete opposite is true. The more they spend to fight drugs, the worse it gets. Of course if supply was some how reduced surely the price would rise, you know supply and demand. So if the price rises, wouldn't you expect a coressponding increase in burglary and all crime? Since addicts have to support expensive habits?

Well in the USA, you got 2 million prisoners already, the highest prison population in the world.:\ Mostly for drug offenses. And has the demand for drugs gone down? Has crime fallen?

See, in more civilised societies,such as Switzerland for example, addicts are prescribed heroin,and believe it or not it helps them, and society, all crime is reduced.

They don't have to lie,cheat or steal or prostitute themselves to get their fix. And they can still have kids, imagine that. Cause addiction is a 'disease' which requires treatment and rehabilitation not jail. To assume all drug addicts are depraved,low life child abusing parents is as judgemental as a person could get.

So you keep on your narrow minded crusade and help to perpetuate the 'war on drugs' and in another decade see what results have eventuated in the USA while more sensible countries like Holland and Switzerland have achieved far greater results with regard to drug abuse.

You are aware though, are you not, that places like Holland have far less use of marijuana where it is freely availible? Where as in the USA, where marijauna 'supports terrorism' and might make you shoot your best friend, use is very very high.

But hey, we all know who suffers the most from this 'war' don't we? Yes thats right, the kids. And because of a completly unregulated supply of drugs is left in the hand of criminals younger and younger people are useing drugs of all kinds, and thats as bad as it gets,and primarilly because of individuals like yourself who have obviously bought all the propoganda and perpetuate the 'war on drugs' Addicts need help, not war.

JPN
22-04-2003, 09:27
"Protect the children" is the main war cry of the government. Given the child worship culture prevailing in the US (if not throughout western culture) the govenrment can justify the suspension of any rights using child protection as an excuse.

Of course, when the same child consumes drugs, he is no longer worthy of any kind of protection, but should be severely punished (criminal record, denial of federal funds to attend school etc). It seems the use of a substance currently classified as illegal immediately transforms this poor little angels into dangerous criminal adults.

As for criticizing parenting skills, well, I don't have any brats myself. However, seeing the hysteria, suspension of common sense, and voluntary surrendering of personal freedoms in exchange for government protection that seems to accompany parenthood, I do not plan to have any kids anytime soon.

Love In Vein
22-04-2003, 11:11
Love in vein, can you provide any proof that the parents were being abusive? Or is it just an assumption? Safe to assume? How come? Maybe you make too many assumptions?

Maybe I've known too many meth addicts, meth cooks and read too many true accounts.

Asides from the part where these parents were heavily involved with methamphetamine for at least 8 months to the point of causing themselves to be investigated for that long, there's nothing I know about meth addicts that would suggest these were even possibly nice parents.


Had these parents been chronic alcoholics they wouldn't be going to jail. And they could make alcohol in their own homes no problem.

That's great and all. But methamphetamine and alcohol are two different things. And they were arrested for synthesizing methamphetamine in their home.


And many things are flammable.


You know, my house has a lot of flammable things in it. But it tends to lack on things that will cause major explosions due to slight mistakes.

My house also tends to lack chemicals that release toxic flammable fumes when used properly, too.

I guess all my house lacks is the obligatory methlab, huh?


If I assumed anything, it would be that the parents were 'addicts',victims of a 'disease' of which they desperately needed help,not punitive action.

They weren't just addicts or victims of disease.

They made drugs and spread their disease and fucked up their kids life.

Being an addict doesn't excuse you from crimes you commit against others.

And after prison they are going to get help as the judge is going to make it a requirement that they get various forms of counseling and probably have to go through a halfway home before they get their kid back. Then they'll have a probation officer checking up on them to make sure they're not getting into trouble again.


And instead of prostituting themselves or stealing, lieing and cheating, they took the more logical option.

Really? I always thought the logical option to earning money was getting a job and working.


Whether you realise it or not, you are fuel for the 'war on drugs'.

Considering I use drugs myself, that's pretty fucked up.


Having sucked in all the propoganda

I haven't sucked up any propaganda. Why don't you go and read through the posts I've made over the past two years.


you now perpetuate the myth that criminal sanctions can some how reduce the prevalence of drug abuse in society

Where did I ever say that?

I don't even believe that.

Maybe if you got over your pro-drug bias you could read my posts objectively and see that I am neither universally for or against drugs.


where as the complete opposite is true. The more they spend to fight drugs, the worse it gets. Of course if supply was some how reduced surely the price would rise, you know supply and demand. So if the price rises, wouldn't you expect a coressponding increase in burglary and all crime? Since addicts have to support expensive habits?


You haven't said anything to support your statement that the opposite is true.

Yes, criminal sanctions inflate drug prices. But you haven't shown how deflated drug prices equates to drugs being less prevalent in society.


Well in the USA, you got 2 million prisoners already, the highest prison population in the world. Mostly for drug offenses. And has the demand for drugs gone down? Has crime fallen?

And if those people weren't in prison would there be less drug users?


See, in more civilised societies,such as Switzerland for example, addicts are prescribed heroin,and believe it or not it helps them, and society, all crime is reduced.

LOL. Yeah, a society that's prospered thanks to the Holocaust that's still holding billions of dollars and countless pieces of art owned by holocaust survivors. A society that enables criminal enterprises around the world, including terrorists organizations. A society that enables the very organizations flooding America's drug markets to function. A society that enables criminals from all over the world to avoid prosecution for serious crimes. How fucking civilized!

Anyways, other than to say you need to check out your statistics on drug and crime rates in countries with "liberal" drug policies instead of relying on statements made by pro-drug or drug policy reform organizations, I'm not going to bother arguing with the rest of your statements. I don't support the War on Drugs.

*Vi0let*
22-04-2003, 14:51
How can some of you insensitively say that "this girl ruined her parents' life and probably her own"? They ruined their own lives and were probably ruining hers. Why bash the poor girl? If anything, rant about how unjustly our government punishes drug offenders.

blah
23-04-2003, 16:33
Love in vein, I will reiterate, 'you are fuel' for the 'war on drugs'.
You just keep on with the 'hard line' approach and help perpetuate the inhumane treatment of drug users world wide especially in the USA. Unfortuanatly far too many people are in jail because of people like yourself who just havn't taken the time to look at the facts, which speak for themselves. Aquaint yourself, for a start, with the history of prohibition and how prevalent drug abuse was when drugs were by and large 'freely availible',right back to ancient Rome.

You seem to focus in on one aspect of drug abuse, ie the negative consequences to the user, and or children in their care.
What about the Homocides? Thefts? Corruption?Prostitution? Organised crime?

Go and have a look at some of the 'USA execution fact websites'
You will find, information relating to some of the most heinous, horrific crimes, a 'large proportion' of which involves drugs,mostly the aquisition of them. Whether meth users strung out and in the process of breaking and entering(for a fix) end up shooting people(dead), or rips offs where poeple are murdered. Then, check out prison inmate statistics.

See, the more you succeed in the 'war on drugs' the higher the price and therefore even more crime, thefts, homocides, and corruption and organised crime. If thats the society you want to live in keep on with the crusade and invest in more security. On the other hand, maybe one day you may realise 'treatment' is the only sustainable option.

To nark on your own parents which will put them in jail, for perhaps many years is depraved. The girl won't realise this perhaps till many years later, or maybe the day after she did it,but her parents required help not war.

Del
23-04-2003, 16:44
Originally posted by craig420
Some day that girl will grow up and realize that she singlehandedly wrecked her own life and that of her parents. It sickens me to see kids who have more allegiance to a misguided war on drugs than they have to their own parents.

Sure, it was irresponsible of the parents to be doing what they were, but their victimless crime is not deserving of what they are about to receive as a punishment.

And as for the "serious" help you say the parents need...they're headed to prison. Do you really think they're going to receive that sort of help in prison?
I agree with what Craig said.

Love In Vein
24-04-2003, 02:13
You just keep on with the 'hard line' approach and help perpetuate the inhumane treatment of drug users world wide especially in the USA.

I've served time before. Don't talk to me about inhumane treatment.

You didn't even pay attention to what I said. I don't believe in a hard line approach to drugs. I don't believe people should be inprisoned for simple drug crimes.


Unfortuanatly far too many people are in jail because of people like yourself who just havn't taken the time to look at the facts, which speak for themselves.

What facts haven't I looked at? I've spent the past 10 years researching drugs as much as I've been using drugs. Infact I've spent more time reading about drugs than I've spent high on drugs. That's a LOT of time. It's probably far more time than you've spent. In addition to my time researching, I have real life experience.

I DON'T have to have the same opinion you do simply because I know the same things.


Aquaint yourself, for a start, with the history of prohibition and how prevalent drug abuse was when drugs were by and large 'freely availible',right back to ancient Rome.

Been there, done that.

I understand the social impact of prohibition, decriminalization and legalization about as well as anyone can.

For example, I've filled notebooks designing a system of controlled legalization. And I've filled a notebook tearing apart all of the flaws in the system.

And asides all that, at this point you're side-tracking the issue to make your point that you're against prohibition.

I get it already, okay?


You seem to focus in on one aspect of drug abuse, ie the negative consequences to the user, and or children in their care.

The entire point of this thread is based on an article where these two parents had a methlab in their home and their 14 year old child turned them in.

That is what I'm focused on.


What about the Homocides? Thefts? Corruption?Prostitution? Organised crime?

That's not what the article was about.


Go and have a look at some of the 'USA execution fact websites'
You will find, information relating to some of the most heinous, horrific crimes, a 'large proportion' of which involves drugs,mostly the aquisition of them.

What the hell does that have to do with the article?


See, the more you succeed in the 'war on drugs' the higher the price and therefore even more crime, thefts, homocides, and corruption and organised crime.

Well that's a whole other issue.


On the other hand, maybe one day you may realise 'treatment' is the only sustainable option.


Well.... these parents are going to be put in drug treatment after they serve their time, in addition to other counseling, which I've already said.

So it's kind of a moot point on top of completely ignoring the fact that this isn't just a drug case.


To nark on your own parents which will put them in jail, for perhaps many years is depraved.

To fuck up your kids life and endanger them is depraved, among other things.


The girl won't realise this perhaps till many years later, or maybe the day after she did it,but her parents required help not war.

Yeah yeah yeah, you already said that.

If you're going to continue, why not keep your content relevant to the article and thread? If you want to discuss why you believe prohibition is wrong, start a new thread.

ikarus
24-04-2003, 23:43
Originally posted by JPN
Given the child worship culture prevailing in the US (if not throughout western culture) the govenrment can justify the suspension of any rights using child protection as an excuse.

There's a good reason for that "child worship" (as you put it). Our species biggest job is to ensure it's own survival, which is done by making babies, and having them grow up to make babies of their own. And who's rights were suspended here? I'm not really clear on that one....

craig420
25-04-2003, 05:39
Originally posted by ikarus
There's a good reason for that "child worship" (as you put it). Our species biggest job is to ensure it's own survival, which is done by making babies, and having them grow up to make babies of their own. And who's rights were suspended here? I'm not really clear on that one....

I think the discussion has strayed from the article a bit. I thought a mod would close this thread at this point, not feed the fire. However, if you throw the bait, I'll bite...

You really want to argue that the nonsense that the government feeds us is part of a bigger plan to ensure the survival of our species? Come on, let's get real. For starters, with the current overpopulation on this planet, it would likely be more beneficial to discourage "making babies".
Furthermore, this argument makes the assumption that the claims the government makes on behalf of children are correct. The war on drugs has largely been fueled by the thought that incarcerating anyone that uses, makes, or sells drugs somehow makes our children safer. However, this assumption has been shown to be blatantly false. Every society that has decriminalized drugs has experienced lower crime rates and lower drug use. Conversely, every society that has criminalized such actions has experienced a resultant increase in crime and drug use. So, I fail to see how such maniacal concepts such as our war on drugs will help to ensure the survival of our species. Perhaps you can clue us in.

And as for "who's rights were suspended"...I believe JPN was talking about the suspension of rights caused by the war on drugs in general...not specifically in relation to this article. I don't feel anyone should need to elaborate on how the war on drugs has infringed on personal civil liberties; if you aren't aware of how this failed social experiment has tread on our rights then you certainly need to study the issue more.

BA
25-04-2003, 16:54
Oi, I'm going to ask that the discussion at least stays in the general realm of the topic from this point on.

voodoosoup
27-04-2003, 06:20
did that make anyone else think about george orwell's 1984?

Harlequin
28-04-2003, 18:39
she probably wants absolutely nothing to do with her parents any time soon until they've sobered up for a while and get themselves mentally put together again.

If she's 14, she won't want anything to do with her parents until about age 30.

Jesus H Christ
29-04-2003, 08:51
I believe that the girl was a victim merely because her parents were using the drug. I know first-hand how it feels to have parents who use meth and it really sucks. They do NOT act right as a parent, and if you were in that girl's position, it would only be a matter of time before you snapped and had to find some solution.

People who use meth are NOT good parents. They act violently, and get very angry for stupid reasons. They blame all of their problems on other people, including their kids. They will make the kids feel horrible about themselves, and not give a shit.

craig420
29-04-2003, 15:33
Originally posted by Jesus H Christ
People who use meth are NOT good parents. They act violently, and get very angry for stupid reasons. They blame all of their problems on other people, including their kids. They will make the kids feel horrible about themselves, and not give a shit.

Ahh, nothing like some prejudicial stereotypes to show your closed-minded, ignorance.

So many people have been brainwashed into believing that anyone who touches this "evil" drug automatically become monsters...no middle ground of course. As soon as you use it, you become a horrible parent, a violent criminal, a raper of women, an unproductive member of society. Wait, does any of this shit sound familiar? It's the same crap that the government and people like you have spewed for nearly a century in efforts to criminalize a number of drugs...first marijuana, then heroin, lsd, cocaine, meth, etc.

Do you really believe it is impossible to use meth responsibly? The drug doesn't do evil shit...just some people who do evil shit happen to use meth. And if they didn't have meth available to them they'd probably be out shoving cocaine up their nose or binge drinking all night. These are addictions problems and often manifest themselves with whichever drug is available to them.

Icey
29-04-2003, 16:04
^^^
There is NO justification for any parent to be using meth. If you are a parent...you shouldn't be doing things like meth, coke, or any other hard substances. What kind of example does this leave for the kid??? Not a very good one. Im not saying that meth makes you a terrible person in anyway...but if you have children...its a whole different story.

craig420
29-04-2003, 17:29
Originally posted by Icey
^^^
There is NO justification for any parent to be using meth. If you are a parent...you shouldn't be doing things like meth, coke, or any other hard substances. What kind of example does this leave for the kid??? Not a very good one. Im not saying that meth makes you a terrible person in anyway...but if you have children...its a whole different story.

Elaborate on why this would automatically make you a horrible parent. Is this because these things are illegal? or is it because these items are inherently bad or evil?

Do you believe that drinking a a glass of wine in front of your children is bad? How about a beer? How about pounding 12 beers in front of your child? How about pounding 12 beers and smoking 2 packs of cigarettes in front of your child? How about pounding 12 beers, chain smoking a carton of cigarettes, and watching violent television programs in front of your child? How about drinking a whole damn case of beer, smoking the whole damn carton of cigarettes, all the while watching adult themed, violent television, and cursing up a storm during the whole thing....and then telling the bitch wife to go out and grab more beer and cigarettes?
All of this is legal.


Do you believe that sneaking a toke of marijuana out of view of your children is bad? Do you believe that smoking some pot when you're at a friend's party (while your children are at home with the babysitter) is bad? How about maybe doing a small line of cocaine at that same party? How about dropping some rolls at a rave? Now, the dreaded meth...how about a small bit of meth when you're at a party?
All this is illegal. But I would contend that any of these items will impact a child far less than any of the legal actions I mentioned above.

My point?
It is not what you do so much as it is how you do it. You can be a resonsible parent and still take drugs responsibly in moderation WITHOUT impacting your child's development or safety. You can fuck up your child in any number of ways, both by legal behavior and illegal behavior. But just cause I choose to partake in illegal drugs on occasion would not automatically make me a bad parent. And likewise, just because I obstain from drugs or other illegal behaviors does not automatically make me a good parent.


If everyone we're genuinely interested in the "example" we left for children then:
-We wouldn't speed on the roads driving them to school or soccer practice.
-We wouldn't go to McDonald's just cause it's quick and easy.
-We wouldn't buy them video games; we'd have them get off their asses and play outside.
-We wouldn't let them watch half the shit we let them watch cause we're too lazy to monitor what they do or find something constructive for them.
-We would recycle everything.
-We would pick up trash in our cities.
-We wouldn't smoke cigarettes.
-We wouldn't drink alcohol.
-We wouldn't drive gas-guzzling vehicles.
-We wouldn't curse.
-We wouldn't make prejudicial comments about those we don't know.


Ahh, shit, that's a lot of work though. I guess it's just a lot easier to stay off the meth and say that that makes you a good parent.

Icey
29-04-2003, 18:56
As a responsible parent, you have the responsibility to show your kid what is right and what is wrong. And doing any drug...(including alcohol and cigs)...in front of your child is not a good thing in my opinion. Do I smoke, drink, and do other things...yes i do. BUT...if i have a child...my goal in life will be to make his/her life worth something. Not show them the bad things in life. I would quit cold turkey anthing i do if i had a child. Are there responsible ways of taking drugs...yes...BUT...do you want your child taking the drugs. Because i know i wouldnt. Your goal as a parent is to raise that child the best you can...and if you wanna do it on drugs...i guanrentee they will one day find out. And personally i know plenty of kids wouldnt want their parents doing drugs either. cause then that shows the kid its ok. "mommy and daddy do it...so why cant i" I've watched drugs break up realtionships with children, marriages, and many people. Just remember parents are the biggest influences on most childrens lives...so think before you do.

Summer of Love
29-04-2003, 21:22
while i do think that person(s) with a child or children running a meth lab should be forced to shut the lab down, just because of the extreme chemical hazards of the lab, i really, really disagree with the fact that the owners of the lab are being sent to prison. i think this DOES represent the fact that the war on drugs has gone way over the top and is destroying lives of people who are completely innocent of any violent acts. the lab owners were not directly victimizing the child in any way. while it is extremely dumb in my opinion to run an extremely dangerous lab while being responsible for a kid, i think the fact that they are likely to spend decades in prison just for manufacturing/possessing a simple chemical is fucking ridiculous, no matter how dangerous the lab. i seriously doubt the lab owners were running it just to victimize the child. they just wanted to make money.
so, while people can say that the hazards of the lab, the effects of the drug, the addiction potential, etc. justifies putting those people away for up to 60 years, i disagree because of the fact that there was no direct violent act or any sort of victimization. i think the only thing that should happen to them is to have the lab shut down, like i said, just because they do have a child in their possession, and meth labs are extremely hazardous. locking them up, in my eyes, is nothing more than fuel for the war on drugs and a horrible injustice to the lab owners and the young girl, even though she turned them in herself. im no psychic, but i think in the years to come, the girl will regret doing that deeply.

Icey
29-04-2003, 21:48
They def deserve to be thrown in jail. They were manufacturing a drug...and with a child in the house. Small time people shouldnt been thrown in jail i agree with you there. But these people were making the drug. Thats like saying the FEDS shouldnt go after drug lords either. A lot of murders and crimes happen because of drug deals and shit like that too...just remember that.

BA
29-04-2003, 22:10
That was a very well constructed argument, craig420.
Kudos!

Summer of Love:
Do you really think that the parents should NOT have been sent away? They were willingly making drugs in their home, and they got caught. I'd bet my life that they knew what they were doing was wrong. They knew it was illegal, and they chose to do it anyway.

We're not talking about someone who got nabbed with a few grams during a traffic stop, this is about someone who was actually making the meth. They can party all they want outside of the house, at a friends place or whatever. But when they chose to run a shotty operation like that IN FRONT of their child, they chose to put that kid in harms way, and set a very shitty example of what a 'good parent' is supposed to be.

Summer of Love
29-04-2003, 23:45
Originally posted by BlueAdonis
That was a very well constructed argument, craig420.
Kudos!

Summer of Love:
Do you really think that the parents should NOT have been sent away? They were willingly making drugs in their home, and they got caught. I'd bet my life that they knew what they were doing was wrong. They knew it was illegal, and they chose to do it anyway.

We're not talking about someone who got nabbed with a few grams during a traffic stop, this is about someone who was actually making the meth. They can party all they want outside of the house, at a friends place or whatever. But when they chose to run a shotty operation like that IN FRONT of their child, they chose to put that kid in harms way, and set a very shitty example of what a 'good parent' is supposed to be.



of course they knew it was illegal, they arent great parents for doing it, and yes i agree it was really stupid. i just dont think they deserve to be locked up for it. i think the lab should just be shut down, and thats the end of it. although the kid was in POTENTIAL harm, it was still a victimless drug crime. locking them up isnt going to solve anything i think.

this is a confusing situation, and i definately see your point. its one thing to be making meth alone or with other adults, but when a minor is present, that makes it a sensitive situation indeed. plus, the kid voluntarily turned the parents in, because she was concerned. i still just dont think they should be locked up for it, especially such a long ridiculous sentence like(max) 60 years. i cant say what exactly should be done, even though i made a suggestion above. i dont know how id feel in that kid's shoes. such a strict sentence just seems way too draconian to me.

Jesus H Christ
30-04-2003, 04:17
Originally posted by craig420
Ahh, nothing like some prejudicial stereotypes to show your closed-minded, ignorance.

So many people have been brainwashed into believing that anyone who touches this "evil" drug automatically become monsters...no middle ground of course. As soon as you use it, you become a horrible parent, a violent criminal, a raper of women, an unproductive member of society. Wait, does any of this shit sound familiar? It's the same crap that the government and people like you have spewed for nearly a century in efforts to criminalize a number of drugs...first marijuana, then heroin, lsd, cocaine, meth, etc.

Do you really believe it is impossible to use meth responsibly? The drug doesn't do evil shit...just some people who do evil shit happen to use meth. And if they didn't have meth available to them they'd probably be out shoving cocaine up their nose or binge drinking all night. These are addictions problems and often manifest themselves with whichever drug is available to them.

Dude, I'm not talking about a responsible drug user. I'm talking about my fucking mom here. Someone who has a very addictive personality and has had problems with not only meth but cocaine and alcohol. They actually do affect her parenting and behavior in this way. It not a goddamn stereotype it's a fucking example.

craig420
30-04-2003, 04:41
Originally posted by Jesus H Christ
Dude, I'm not talking about a responsible drug user. I'm talking about my fucking mom here. Someone who has a very addictive personality and has had problems with not only meth but cocaine and alcohol. They actually do affect her parenting and behavior in this way. It not a goddamn stereotype it's a fucking example.

I see. So from sample size of one, you've come to a grand conclusion for an entire set of people...I can't see any fault in that (s/c).

JPN
30-04-2003, 05:18
Thanks Craig. Using dramatic anectodes to justify universal policy applying to all is also a common strategy used by drug warriors.

As for that poor girl, she will regret her actions one day. It does not really matter if her parents are "right" or "wrong". She sent them to jail. A system that leads to children denouncing their parents for producing substances for which there is huge demand is flawed.

I am also amazed at the level of sainthood expected of parents on this board. Given that people here are probably more relaxed than the general public, drug legalization appears very far away. Especially when users themselves seem to feel that what they are doing is "bad" or "evil"
8)

Summer of Love
30-04-2003, 19:13
Originally posted by JPN
Thanks Craig. Using dramatic anectodes to justify universal policy applying to all is also a common strategy used by drug warriors.

As for that poor girl, she will regret her actions one day. It does not really matter if her parents are "right" or "wrong". She sent them to jail. A system that leads to children denouncing their parents for producing substances for which there is huge demand is flawed.

I am also amazed at the level of sainthood expected of parents on this board. Given that people here are probably more relaxed than the general public, drug legalization appears very far away. Especially when users themselves seem to feel that what they are doing is "bad" or "evil"
8)




i agree with you, but dont you think the lab should have been simply shut down without a prison sentence? although there was no direct victimization, im sure the lab owners knew well how dangerous a meth lab is, and it was very careless of them to run something like that in front of a young kid. it would be different without the kid, but i would also feel the same way if it was run in a crowded neighborhood.

Icey
30-04-2003, 21:14
By not throwing them in jail your basically just slapping them on the wrist...and saying "just dont do it again" These people deserve what they got. Making drugs is a pretty serious offense. We would probs have a mass amount of people making drugs if that was the only thing that would happen to them. The rules are strict for a reason...to keep people from doing it.

craig420
30-04-2003, 22:29
Originally posted by Icey
By not throwing them in jail your basically just slapping them on the wrist...and saying "just dont do it again" These people deserve what they got. Making drugs is a pretty serious offense. We would probs have a mass amount of people making drugs if that was the only thing that would happen to them.

In the short run yes, but in the long run no.

At first, lots of people would begin manufacturing due to the high profits and low risk. However, as the quantity produced increased due to the influx of manufacturers, prices would fall. The decrease in prices would lower profits and therefore decrease the allure of manufacturing. The number of people manufacturing would thus go back down.

Keep your eyes posted for my new book about to hit the shelves titled "Drug Economics for Dummies".

BA
30-04-2003, 22:48
The bottom line is this: They knew what they were doing was wrong and illegal. Right? So why is there even any discussion on how to handle them?

They knew the law, and they willingly chose to break it.

Wether the law is shit or not is another topic, but for now, the law is the law. If they had a problem with it, then do something about it; run for mayor, governor, president, etc. At least try and change things if you are so opposed to drug laws.

They knew it was illegal, they threw caution to the wind.