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Misc SSRI properties of anti-depressants vs recreational drugs

Machete

Bluelighter
Joined
Aug 4, 2009
Messages
255
What is the difference between the SSRIs commonly prescribed for depression (which take a period of weeks or months to properly take effect) and drugs with recreational potential (e.g. tramadol) which act as "instant" SSRIs? Why is the latter not used instead of the former for depression?

Thanks to anyone who can enlighten me! :D
 
first of all, tramadol acts as an SNRI, with the N standing for norepeniphrene. there is no such drug that acts as an instant reuptake inhibitor, the quicker onset of antidepressant properties with tramadol is likely due to its action as an opioid.
 
first of all, tramadol acts as an SNRI, with the N standing for norepeniphrene. there is no such drug that acts as an instant reuptake inhibitor, the quicker onset of antidepressant properties with tramadol is likely due to its action as an opioid.
That's why I quoted "instant". I think we can both agree that a couple of hours for recognisable effects is considerably closer to instant than a month.

Why would the noradrenaline reuptake inhibition affect its action as a serotonin reuptake inhibitor? I know the effects of tramadol all too well so I know it isn't selective for serotonin but that doesn't change the nature of the comparison or, indeed, the question. Tramadol has a clear empathogenic element that I cannot explain by any of its other actions.
 
okay man, sorry, i think i misread your question a bit and was just being an anal dickhead. my girlfriend says that tramadol is the only drug that works as an antidepressant for her, and like me she's tried a lot of them.
to be honest i can't really answer your question. my experience with the medical profession is that certain guidelines are set and those are usually followed to a t, no matter if they make sense or help the patient. i am dead sure i could concoct a cocktail of psychopharmaceuticals that would get me out of my black hole of depression, but doctors hate to be told what to prescribe and they hate it even more if you even remotely enjoy your medication.
sorry, none of this really answers your question, i suppose it's just the doctrine thing.
 
in the case of SSRI vs tramadol, it's definitely the fact that tramadol is an opioid.

SSRIs do have some small effect when taken, you just don't notice the supposed 'antidepressant' and other side effects for a week or more after.

Look at methylphenidate/ethylphenidate it's a DNRI, so it also blocks reuptake of noradrenaline and it hits you pretttty prettty fast. I'm not sure why SSRIs take so long to have pronounced effects, maybe it's because they are shitty pharmaceuticals.

tramadol should be prescribed for depression, it's very effective for some people. Likely because it's an opioid and its effect on norepinepherine. probably nothing at all to do with serotonin IMO.

that empathogen element can be explained by the effects of norepinepherine (fuck i hate spelling that word). I've taken plenty of drugs that have no effect on serotonin but still cause an empathogen type feel. Ethcathinone stands out as one in particular as it's mostly working on NE and not much on DA and not at all on SE, weird drug because it feels like a good stim but doesn't sound like it would be one.
 
Thanks to both of you for responding. :)

That's interesting. I really do think that there's some noticeable serotonin involvement with tramadol though. Obviously my opinion is entirely anecdotal and I could well be wrong. I'm basing it on the fact that I was doing 400mg codeine CWEs long before I first tried tramadol and that I have a lot of experience with straight-up serotonin releasing agents that have no effects on any of the other monoamines. I know what a purely serotonergic high feels like and I know what an opiate high feels like (and if there's direct cross-tolerance between tramadol and codeine, I would've had a high enough tolerance to find the opioid aspects of the tramadol totally underwhelming when I first took it -- it's also probable that I had experienced downregulation of opiate receptors at that point due to daily use of large codeine and DHC CWEs for quite some time beforehand). To me, it feels like there's more at play than just opiate receptor agonism and noradrenaline reuptake inhibition.

I totally get you with the spelling of "norepinepherine", it's the main reason I call it noradrenaline. :p
 
Two things that are a marker of SSRI success in treating depression are delayed a couple weeks to a month: increased hippocampal neurogenesis and autoreceptor desensitization.
 
pretty sure tramadol just inhibits the reuptake of SE/NE, doesn't release either one. As for norepinepherine, i just call it NE from now on lol.

Either way, yes that will add to tramadol's efficacy as an antidepressant. But it's not going to be like an opiate mixed with MDMA or anything.

It'd be like taking an SNRI with codeine or something.

i'd like to see any study showing any success of any SSRI over placebo that is significant. If i did my own study using amphetamines/benzos/opiates mixed in a pill, you'd see a hell of a lot more efficacy in treating depression than any SSRI. Even the old school antidepressants are far more effective.
 
in the case of SSRI vs tramadol, it's definitely the fact that tramadol is an opioid.

I agree fully.

After taking tramadol for a period of time (2 weeks), then the SNRI activity should be far more active.
The empathogen feeling you describe, IMO, would be 99% opioid based in the beginning.
The percentages might change after regular dosing over a longer period, but I'll stick to my first sentence as my 2 cents.

ie. tramadol = opioid = empathogen feeling.
 
Maybe a little bit more due to the fact that its a releaser of 5ht, and sometimes people respond very fast to SSRIs.
 
first of all ssri are instantly raising the serotonin in couple of hours way above than normal people have thus the midriasis and weird feeling reports from the first day. i dunno why but it has to do with downregulation of serotonin receptors through over exitment of serotoninergic that helps depresed people (or its just a side effect and reason ssris stop work but some theory explains why ssri take long to kick in is cause of them must downregulate the receptors which takes weeks).it also have to do with depression itself which takes alot of work to be treated no depresed person took a drug and suddenly felt better maybe he get high but with shitty psychology it might even feel weird. personally i feel the effect of an ssri within an hour).the resaon for not pronounced euphoria like mdma is that mdma is also weak maoi a relising agent of all three neurotransmiters and for the euphoria dopamine is responsible not serotonin execcive serotonin brings the psychedelia. and it also makes hormones released oxytosin which is bonding hormone also it has phenyphenilamine mimetic effect which is love exitmeng feeling butterflies in the stomach). serotonin dont gets you high its essential for you to function it coordinates all the neuronal systems it activates them and inhibits them through serotonin - melatonin system melatonin inhibits seratonin activates lack of seratonin leads to lack of melatonin resulting in poor activation and poor deactivation thus lack of energy poor sleep and motivation thus deepresion . but careful high seratonin wont make you jittery cause its not its function to make you so it acctually inhibits overexitment and overcatatony.. its an regulator so if you have too litle the other systems wont respond very well , thus as a depresed person you wont secrete normal amounts of dopamine to plesurable stimuli wont fight flight well thus the lack of apetite in depressed person and etc . you dont need an exes of serotonin you need the right amount cause to much has toxic and weird effects i havent studied well.

now depression , actually depression dosent come from lack of seratonin but the lack of seratonin from depression .. depression ocurrs when something is wrong in our enviroment ussually simply lack of love (loss, no reletionship , lack of friends ,haters ,) which is considered poorly stimulating enviroment poorly stimulating enviroments make us secrete less neurotransmiters through our way of life . a person without love wont take care of him/her self wont eat properly,dont have goals goals are very important to have high neurotransmiter levels even with malnutrion etc which dosent help neurotransmiters to be made properly , also not making much of them is our body way to tell us u doing wrong (it says i want friends , i want sex , i need to be loved if im not i dont need to exist im not needed am obsolete im evolutions failed object nobody even chooses me for reproduction thus i need to die , thts the subcocious mindworks, ) why?? cause through love we survive ... if our mother wouldnt love us feed us etc mothers does we would die .thus depression slowly simply kill us , infants which havent being stroked or hugged die . so simply by increasing serotonin you will have more energy and sleep better but it wont make you feel loved - thus why after months you get better because most probably through this help in sleep and motivation you acctually finds somebody to love and be loved by .

many of things i said might be incorect...

/ sorry my english is not very good i have other 2 primary langueges am still learning english
 
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the resaon for not pronounced euphoria like mdma is that mdma is also weak maoi a relising agent of all three neurotransmiters and for the euphoria dopamine is responsible not serotonin execcive serotonin brings the psychedelia. and it also makes hormones released oxytosin which is bonding hormone also it has phenyphenilamine mimetic effect which is love exitmeng feeling butterflies in the stomach). serotonin dont gets you high its essential for you to function it coordinates all the neuronal systems it activates them and inhibits them through serotonin - melatonin system melatonin inhibits seratonin activates lack of seratonin leads to lack of melatonin resulting in poor activation and poor deactivation thus lack of energy poor sleep and motivation thus deepresion . but careful high seratonin wont make you jittery cause its not its function to make you so it acctually inhibits overexitment and overcatatony..

i know your English isn't great but you are contradicting yourself all over the place.

1. Reason MDMA gets you high; it releases serotonin. SSRIs do not release serotonin.
2. Dopamine on its own does not induce euphoria.
4. Serotonin isn't the only thing responsible for depression in fact it's quite likely it has little to do with depression which would certainly explain why SSRIs, SNRIs don't work for most people while DNRIs are more effective as well as the old tricyclic AD. We and the medical community are starting to move on from the serotonergic paradigm we've been stuck in for well over 20 years.
5. SSRIs are known to cause mania, restlessness, agitation, nightmares, and many other side effects during the first 2 weeks. Not to mention suicidal ideation or even suicide itself.

Then you go on to argue that serotonin doesn't get you high when previously you stated it provides psychedelia, which it doesn't. Psychedelics typically bind to serotonin receptors and have a similar structure but rarely release serotonin as well.

anyway, love isn't all you need.
 
you misconceived alot .

1 . when i say high imean make you feel good psychedelia isnt neccessery good . it might be visiuals or audiatory hallucinations.

2. dopamine motivates you towards all that feels good , it actually released when you imagine or are in front of waht you need for survival

3. obviously you didnt read my whole post cause i also explain that serotonin has litle to do with depression , being an indicator

4 ssri cause too much serotonin to concetrate in the synapse and as i said it makes you feel weird , they also alter the brain neuronal structure in the long run,. plus they have diffrent tolerability and toxicity fluoxetine is an ssri as venlafaxine but venlafaxine is far less tolerated causing adverse oyu described in larger %.

5 most effective ways to treat depression in 80-even i dare to say 95% of the depression diagnosed is cognitive behavioral therapy and finding company and supporting loving healthy enviroment with alot of stimulation .

6 love is the number 1 psychological need but no one said that you can survive on only that . you need eating shitting etc . unless you are mutant who survives by hurting others like many in our rotting society

7 , most psychedelics are agonists of serotoninergic system obviously being more potent they crete weird effects on perception , as too much serotonin does in a lesser extent


.... i have more but ineed to go to a party continue tomorow
 
You can be confusing substances that trigger the release of excess serotonin (which are most drugs and activities that induce a state of "pleasure") with those that prevent the reuptake of serotonin. There's a big difference. And no, SSRI's aren't "shitty pharmaceuticals," they just take longer to work because it's harder to retrain your receptors to slow their reuptake of serotonin as opposed to just making your brain release a shit ton at once.
 
I agree fully.

After taking tramadol for a period of time (2 weeks), then the SNRI activity should be far more active.
The empathogen feeling you describe, IMO, would be 99% opioid based in the beginning.
The percentages might change after regular dosing over a longer period, but I'll stick to my first sentence as my 2 cents.

ie. tramadol = opioid = empathogen feeling.
But ~150mg of tramadol sent me through the roof the first time I tried it and this was at a time when I had been consuming well over a gram of codeine a day for a significant length of time. I would've been downregulating my opiate receptors whilst escalating my dosage of codeine for months before I tried tramadol with, perhaps, a 2 day break between stopping the codeine and taking the tramadol. Going under the oft-stated assertion that tramadol and codeine are more or less equipotent in their opioid actions on a milligram for milligram basis, I would've expected 150mg of tramadol to have almost negligible opioid effects on me at that time.

Maybe this simply doesn't hold true for everyone and it's entirely idiosyncratic but I don't think I could explain the effects it had on me purely through opiate receptor agonism.

To the people saying that tramadol is a serotonin releasing agent, where are you getting this from? I'm aware that there was debate about whether it was or not but I thought that this had largely been settled in favour of the negative.
 
Maybe this simply doesn't hold true for everyone and it's entirely idiosyncratic but I don't think I could explain the effects it had on me purely through opiate receptor agonism.

I agree.

ie. tramadol = opioid = empathogen feeling.

I left out the word "purely" for that very reason.
Tramadol works great for some people and not at all for others.

The chemical "make-up" of tramadol is complex.
Maybe Seiko could give a more concrete answer.
 
Not sure if this has been said, but here's my take:

SSRI's take a while to build up in the system and work differently than tramadol, MDMA, etc, which produce instant (sometimes dramatic) effects.

For me, SSRI's did nothing. No change in mood, behavior, thoughts or energy levels. Stayed on them for a decade anyway. Opiates are an instant cure for depression that worked at the same dose no matter how many years (yep, YEARS) I took them.

Tramadol has some "extra" effects that differ from other opiates, though I'm not sure exactly what those are. (SNRI, perhaps?) Not something I'd like to be addicted to or withdraw from.
 
tramadol does not release serotonin unless you can cite a source showing it does. it is an SNRI and an opioid.

SSRIs are garbage pharms. try to prove me wrong on this.

The extra effects of tramadol can definitely come down to the fact that's it's a strange opioid and the NE reuptake inhibition, which on its own can cause an empathogen type feeling if it's strong enough.

opiates eventually cause depression, tramadol may not though, it should be use to treat depression.

@lucidshroomdmtier. I agree with your points for the most part. 5,6 and 7 are most certainly up for debate though.
 
Fuck ssri's i hope they are made illegal vile shit in a pill thats what they are.I would prefer smoking pcp crack and dmt at the same time then touching an ssri again. They cause a shit load of problems, most of the time dont help and the situation worse and are just pushed by stupid ass pharamcist who get paid to push them. Benzos,opiates,and stims (pharms) resolve most of the issues they give SSRI's for. Paxil or prozac for anxiety? why not cigarettes for cancer then? sorry for the rant but i HATE anything related to SSRI'S
 
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