What do you consider to be, 'clean and sober'?

The phrase 'clean and sober' takes on many different meanings. My working definition is no usage of anything stronger than caffein or its herbal cousins such as ginseng. I will also use small doses of kava and other herbal/mineral supplements to help me relax if I'm stressed or not tired at night. I also brew my own kombucha and only drink large amounts of it when I can tell that its left the high alcohol stage of fermentation.

None of these things severely alter my consciousness like alcohol, cannabis, or any of the other heavier drugs. So I guess that is my baseline. I don't want to use anything that takes me to far out of my natural state. Also, none of the plants/minerals that I mention above have had negative consequences in my life save for the occasional over shooting of one two many cups of coffee. Alcohol and cannabis were pretty much running my life into the ground.

What are your thoughts on this?

Mehm said:

The phrase 'clean and sober' takes on many different meanings. My working definition is no usage of anything stronger than caffein or its herbal cousins such as ginseng. I will also use small doses of kava and other herbal/mineral supplements to help me relax if I'm stressed or not tired at night. I also brew my own kombucha and only drink large amounts of it when I can tell that its left the high alcohol stage of fermentation.

None of these things severely alter my consciousness like alcohol, cannabis, or any of the other heavier drugs. So I guess that is my baseline. I don't want to use anything that takes me to far out of my natural state. Also, none of the plants/minerals that I mention above have had negative consequences in my life save for the occasional over shooting of one two many cups of coffee. Alcohol and cannabis were pretty much running my life into the ground.

What are your thoughts on this?

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Heh I know we don't agree on AA/12 step programs but I agree with you about your definition of "clean and sober". I did use kava recreationally when I was using drugs; but for relaxation I do meditation, exercise some (I do it before it's too late since otherwise it keeps me awake), and I'll sometimes drink some chamomile tea or rooibos tea before bedtime. I do not drink alcohol or use illegal drugs but I do cook with wine and liquor but you do not get intoxicated or even buzzed from that since the alcohol cooks off or burns off while food is being prepared. How much alcohol and cannabis did you use when you were using? When I was younger I used to be able to drink and smoke cannabis socially but then once I became addicted to drugs I would drink daily and when I was not drinking daily in large quantities, I would smoke pot daily as a substitute and just go back and forth between the two. I am glad I am sober.

I think of it as being off of a drug you had a problem with.

clean and sober is that period of time before a drug addict first used drugs.

clean and sober don't mean much to me, functional and sustainable are more highly valued in terms of my life and those around me. Basically clean and sober is when i feel normal and not high for an extended period of time.

How much alcohol and cannabis did you use when you were using?

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I used for 14 years so this varied a lot. Towards the end I was getting stoned a few times a day and drinking a couple of fifths plus beer, wine, and bar drinks every week. I was pretty functional, working tons and making money, doing yoga and surfing, .....just super miserable on the inside.

I'm with Captain Heroin.
I shouldn't use alcohol so I don't.
My biggest problem is codeine. If I can kick that I will consider myself clean and sober. but I'm not giving up ciggies or coffee. They don't affect my thinking and everyday life

Yeah, I basically have the same definition as mehm. I also brew my own kombucha and ginger beer and root beer etc, which are going to have a small amount of alcohol as a natural part of the fermentation process, but I tend to do short fermentation times and it's never gotten me close to buzzed. And I do take alcohol based tinctures, although I waited a long time until I felt comfortable with that. I guess the line gets kind of fuzzy there, guess you could say the same about overripe fruit too though.

Even the sauerkraut I make is most likely going to have a small amount of alcohol, but it personally doesn't concern me. On the other hand, I would never even take a sip of wine these days, in my head that's where the line gets crossed. I used to make my own tinctures all the time, and I miss doing that and maybe I will again some day, but I'm still not comfortable having that much alcohol in the house.

To me, I'm sober as long as I'm off the H, even if I'm still drinking and on suboxone or something.

That's just how I personally view it though.. however, there have been times in my addiction where I was heavily using IV coke, and I'd consider myself clean just if I could stop doing that, even if I was still using H everyday..

Addict logic.. 8(

I class myself sober despite continuing recreational use of a certain class of drugs. My current battle with addiction is against the booze, I was in full blown alcoholic territory. I remain an alcoholic, but one that chooses not to drink. I'm a bit two steps forward, one step back with it and have had a recent very short relapse I soon took control of and arrested, on the whole over the last twelve months it's been a battle that I'm mostly winning. I count myself clean, again despite occasional drug use because I've not picked up heroin these last ten years or so after being a daily addict and IV user for seven.

Clean / sober = not using the drugs of addiction that became problematic for me to the point of losing all control to them.

Agree with Capt H. I've been off pod tea and amphetamines for awhile now. On suboxone maintenance and it's helped me in so many ways. I consider myself clean even if some people in NA don't agree.

Captain.Heroin said:

I think of it as being off of a drug you had a problem with.

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Same for me. When I say I'm sober it means I'm on no opioids. I still drink, smoke weed, take benzos from time to time, use psychedelics, etc., yet I'm sober in a way.

I was just thinking (because of some other threads) about how everyone has such different definitions of words like "clean" or "sober".

RobotRipping said:

clean and sober don't mean much to me, functional and sustainable are more highly valued in terms of my life and those around me.

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This is how I feel too. I don't spend any time worrying about whether I am "clean" or "sober" or how many days, etc, I just think of it if people ask, "How long have you been clean?" which is a complicated question for me.

I personally generally define "clean" as clean from one's drug of addiction, although it does depend on the context the word is used in. If someone was addicted to heroin and they quit but are taking methadone or Suboxone strictly as maintenance and don't feel any high at all from it, merely the relief of withdrawal symptoms, then I think they have every right to say they are "clean" from heroin. They are still physically dependent on a drug but that shouldn't diminish the fact that they have still made major changes in their life and their use of drugs, and have clearly done some work on their mental addiction. I also think, for example, if someone was addicted to crack but they still smoke a joint or have a drink once a month that they are still "clean" from crack. However I wouldn't say something like "I'm totally clean from opioids" if I was still taking opioids, even if I was just maintaining or taking one that wasn't my drug of choice.

I know many people like to count number of days clean and define it to mean 100% abstaining from all drugs other than caffeine and nicotine, regardless of what drugs they had a problem with, but I don't define it that way myself and it bugs me when people push their own definitions on others, like giving someone a hard time for saying "I've been clean for 100 days" because they occasionally drink socially when that was never something they've had a problem with, or because they are on a maintenance drug or are prescribed a drug therapeutically.

Personally I don't count my number of days clean as I wouldn't even know how to count that, and it isn't very important to me or something I need to obsess over. But it is useful for me to sometimes look back on approximately how long I've gone without each specific drug that I felt was important to quit, to see that I've made progress or to consider improvements in things like PAWS during that time.

"Sober" I would generally define as not perceptibly intoxicated by drugs or alcohol. I wouldn't consider using drugs strictly therapeutically as being not "sober", even if it's a psychoactive drug, for example someone taking, say, an antidepressant, or an anxiolytic or sleeping pill, unless they are being used for recreational purposes etc. I also wouldn't consider drugs like caffeine or nicotine to make someone not "sober", since they have very subtle effects and don't make someone "intoxicated" or "high". I realize this definition is pretty vague, but it's more about how and why the drug is used and the way it affects the person.

I've thought about this a lot, and ultimately being free of my addictions is more important to me than whether I am strictly clean and sober. It's not a burning desire, but I would consider smoking weed or taking mushrooms some point in the future, in which case I wouldn't introduce myself as a "clean and sober" person, but as long as I'm not having an abusive relationship with a substance, that's what really matters to me.

ETA: one situation I can see where the semantics would be important is if someone was advertising a room for rent and described it as a "clean and sober" house. If I moved into a place that called themself a sober house, but people were drinking there, since it wasn't their DOC, then I'd be super uncomfortable with that as an alcoholic.

I never considered myself clean when I was taking subs to get off methadone/heroin. I was still on an opioid that clearly affected my CNS in a way that still helped prolong some sort of dependence to opioids. Loperamide on the other hand being a PNS opioid I don't consider really affecting whether or not I'm 'clean' from opioids.

If i'm off coke, booze, and opiates.. then i'm off everything that has caused me problems.. But as of now i'm the real deal clean and sober.. but I don't think I would have a problem with any drug that didn't manipulate the dopamine.. or even some tip top green for a special occasions.. I don't buy into the idea that taking any drug will lead someone to their DOC or awaken their addiction all over again.. I think that idea is based off the true AA thought that alcohol, in any form, will fire up alcoholism.. and heroin in any form will fire up a junkie.. but to say that an alcoholic or junky will get fired up if they take some L is a little nuts, IMO.. but i guess it depends on the addict.

if you only use drugs therapeutically instead of recreational or worse because you don't want to wd

Sober to me means nothing but caffeine and maybe cigarettes if you are a smoker. I'm not quite sure why I make an allowance for cigarettes, probably because they don't actually get you high (not what I consider a high, anyway)

It's a subjective word that is for sure. I find it kind of odd that some people think smoking weed/getting drunk counts as sober but to each their own.

Opinions are like assholes, we all got one

to be a dick or not be a dick that is the question.
" At NA meetings we introduce ourselves as addicts. We refer to our time in the NA program as clean time or recovery. We do this because when NA members identify themselves as addicts AND alcoholics, or talk about living clean AND sober, the clarity of the NA message is blurred. To speak in this manner suggests that there are two diseases, that one drug is somehow separate from the rest, requiring special recognition. Our identification as addicts is all-inclusive, allowing us to concentrate on our similarities rather than our differences." straight from NA world services. so this is what I base it on, there is no clean AND sober. you can be clean OR sober though. sobriety according to 12 step fellowships is abstinence from alcohol. clean means to be clean from all mind/mood altering substances not prescribed by a doctor AND taken as prescribed (using not physician authorized ROAs is considered using). this is of course the NA definition which I've adopted as my own.

side note: it irks the fuck out of me when people say "clean and sober". but I hold my tongue and work on my tolerance/pray for them. "alcoholic and addict" and its variations I do correct people who say that nonsense as it clearly states in medical literature, NA literature, etc that alcohol is a drug. respect the house that your in is what I was told (say alcoholic in AA and addict in drug fellowships) but fuck that. I feel I'm not being honest if I say alcoholic as those old farts who say they spilled more booze than I've drank (sloppy wasteful fucks) most likely have as I never really drank.

(mod note: my choice of words are directed at those who hop on their pedastal thinking they're superior in some way shape or form, not aimed at AA or naive individuals as a whole).

Mehm said:

What are your thoughts on this?

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I think it varies from person to person. I don't think it is my place to say what will work for someone else. For me though, I won't do anything that has potential to "fuck you up." That means basically I drink espresso and that's about the most psychoactive substance that enters my body. I know a handful of guys who attend AA and consider themselves sober for years, but they do steroids... I wouldn't do that kind of thing either. A friend once related to me some anecdotes about a group of kids shotgunning Redbull at an NA convention... pretty silly.

It's cynical, but if I had to guess I would say that these kinds of people will probably go back to their DOC if they don't change this behavior. I try not to judge this sort of thing but living with a hundred drug addicts, working in a rehab, attending AA for several years, and becoming very well acquainted with the nature of my own insanity has demonstrated this numerous times. Not trying to generalize everyone, but I've seen it happen enough to decide to stay away from this kind of stuff.

Again--I think the answer to the OP question is going to be different for everyone. For me I know what feels right and what doesn't. I used to love smoking weed, but I won't do ANYTHING if it even infinitesimally increases the odds that I'll find myself back on heroin. It's just not worth it to me. I've been off drugs and alcohol for what I consider to be a long time, and I've got more to lose now than I ever did. I have plenty of fun without substances.

Serotonin101 said:

to be a dick or not be a dick that is the question.
" At NA meetings we introduce ourselves as addicts. We refer to our time in the NA program as clean time or recovery. We do this because when NA members identify themselves as addicts AND alcoholics, or talk about living clean AND sober, the clarity of the NA message is blurred. To speak in this manner suggests that there are two diseases, that one drug is somehow separate from the rest, requiring special recognition. Our identification as addicts is all-inclusive, allowing us to concentrate on our similarities rather than our differences." straight from NA world services. so this is what I base it on, there is no clean AND sober. you can be clean OR sober though. sobriety according to 12 step fellowships is abstinence from alcohol. clean means to be clean from all mind/mood altering substances not prescribed by a doctor AND taken as prescribed (using not physician authorized ROAs is considered using). this is of course the NA definition which I've adopted as my own.

side note: it irks the fuck out of me when people say "clean and sober". but I hold my tongue and work on my tolerance/pray for them. "alcoholic and addict" and its variations I do correct people who say that nonsense as it clearly states in medical literature, NA literature, etc that alcohol is a drug. respect the house that your in is what I was told (say alcoholic in AA and addict in drug fellowships) but fuck that. I feel I'm not being honest if I say alcoholic as those old farts who say they spilled more booze than I've drank (sloppy wasteful fucks) most likely have as I never really drank.

(mod note: my choice of words are directed at those who hop on their pedestal thinking they're superior in some way shape or form, not aimed at AA or naive individuals as a whole).

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what do you think about a medical drs name on a colored bottle full of DRUGS?? that it changes the chemical or how it works.. I think drs are put on a pedestal.. whats one of the major causes and perpetrators of addiction these days seron, it has to be drs.. hope you are well, sorry to here about your girl