16th issue General Heroin Discussion v hit it raw or bag it up?

Mr.Scagnattie said:

Feel infinitely better today now still on the subs. I took a seroquel and actually slept last night which was a fucking Godsend. By tomorrow, I'll be 100% back stabalized on the suboxone thank fucking Goddd!

Hah. Now it's just a matter of not going back to dope like a dumb ass and actually successfully executing a taper. But, a problem for another day. Right now I feel good, I feel clear, and am glad to not be jamming needles in my hand.

Click to expand...

I read the other stuff you posted elsewhere. That waiting is key as Tomby says. I've gone back and forth between bup and h more times than I care to admit. I'm glad you're better. And the seq. you took I'm sure helped. I always, and as others have said, use benzos thru the whole process. Something else is good also. Menthol--natrural or synth. In the past, when went thru that hellish waiting game b4 inducing sub, I've slathered myself with vicks vapo-rub. especially my face and nostrols (outside and the tips into the cavity) and used some form of menthol solve on my lips. Why menthol? its an natural realxer and hits the opiate receptors in wds. Many studies have shown that ppl who live in urban areas smoke mentol cigs. due to the stress level of daily life. As a 2 pack guy myself, I always mix it up with menthol and regs. Now the trick is to sty stable for a couple of weeks and try to taper off. Bup long term, and as so many others have said including myself, is a nightmere. nasty stuff. But if you can get off of it, you'll be home free. So hard, I know. I'm rooting 4 U. And for anyone else trying to kick. I'm no longer addicted physically to any opiate, but the psych. addiction is out of site and I certainly chip. But I force myself to let a few days go by. Some can quit, some can't some can use like I am doing now. But what I'm doing is playing with fire and I know it. If I really get the cravings bad and I know if i use I'm looking at addiction again, I just try and remeber how hard it was to get out and off. So far its working. As to the future, i have no idea. And that's the scary part. As far as inducing sub, I use the COWS scale. But everybodies body is differnt. But as Tomboy said, you must endure it. And damn hard it is. be well.

^never heard that menthol acts on opiate receptors before

I overdid it with menthols and stimulants during my raver days, and now even a whiff of a menthol makes my heart pound like what some of you guys say about coke triggers.

I like menthol cigs. They are referred to as "fine young gentleman" mints by some people.

hubs3 said:

I am a multiple pain patient. Of course I started out in this game before I was a pain patient so the thing I really need is also the thing that can hurt me as well now. But I can tell you that 100% of my seeking out product now is to make sure I have adaquate "medication" around for pain. I went to my Doc and he guardedly perscribed 5 Oxy 10s and explained tha in my locale that the patient/Doc/Pham is tracked with all narcotic scripts. i could not even find a pharm to fill the script or would fill the script. Should have had the Doc call it in, as if that may have made a difference? So I simply have taken matters into my own hands and at the risk we all take in this game.

But I am not alone. I have read stories elsewhere of wives driving into some 'hood to cop for their husbands with terminal cancer, and when the docs simply would not write enough as the patient wasn't ready for a morphine drip or some such thing. And the patient wasn't even an substance abuser. I can tell you this type of AMA mania does not exist in other places.

Click to expand...

im in the same boat bro...what a horrible game they make us play...

I too have seen cancer patients send out friends or family to cop heroin in the hood because the doctors all the sudden cut the dosage down 75% of what people have been using for years.... Just imagine having a problem like cancer and than on top off it going through w/d and even Chemo too.... I felt sorry for the guy I told him it would be cheaper for him to buy a sleeve once a month rather than pay for the pharmacy for the pills he needs and yet still not have enough....Some of these people stop filling the prescription and just move on to the dope because its cheaper..... Why spend 200 on pills that wont last you a month when for some more money you will have enough herion to last the month...

until 2months down the road and you cant afford the dope habit anymore and so they start slamming the dope and ruin their lives in a completely new way.

then when they wantt o switch back to the pills cause he dope has completly took over, they realize their tolerance is threw the roof and the pills they are scripted dont have an effect anymore, and they are screwed in everyway

True that chinky,taking,pills does notta after doin dope .

they might keep the sick off but thats about it..good luck getting any reiief or catching a high though

yeah,i wouldnt even bother even to just get the sick of,youd have to take so much and their is so much asprin in some of them pills.

I'm pretty set on taking a break from dope. I got high tuesday, then took off until today and was starting to come around but gave in for one reason or another. I guess one of the reasons what because I had a list of things to do around the house so it was either not do dope and feel too shitty to do the stuff and get high at night to deal with getting bitched at for not doing everything listed, or just get the dope so I could do all the work around the house which was the option I chose.

My regular dealer got a horrible batch of dope so that's part of the reason I wanted to stop. The other was that work slowed down a bit so my funds were limited, and if I tapped into my savings to get high my parents would have noticed and that would have led to a huge fight and me possibly getting kicked out of my house.

So instead I just stopped cold turkey, with nighttime cold medicine [DXM and doxylamine] being the only drugs I had in my withdrawal arsenal. I'm going to get some clonidine within the next day or so and I should be set as long as I have 3 days off from work in a row. Plan is to do the 3 bags I have left tomorrow afternoon/night, and that will carry me through Sunday before the withdrawals begin. I'm hoping that these 2 days of use don't put me back to square one with kicking, but they probably will minus a little intensity which the clonidine should take care of anyway.

I should have just stuck it out through my kick I was just going through but you know how that goes sometimes. It really wasn't that bad despite having been shooting 5 bags a day of some good dope. I guess that's because it didn't become daily until a few weeks ago, and it's just been a month of steady use, which by my definition is 3-4 days a week.

^You've already had more than a chip for awhile....half a bundle a day for two weeks in your position probably definitely locked you into a true habit.....The first few times you can usually bounce back pretty quickly. It took me awhile to really experience the WDs in their full glory! I'm still not much of puker, it took years before I actually started vomiting from withdrawal, and I still don't get it as bad as some people I know.

You'll probably be able to completely bounce back pretty quickly if you stop now. There's a lot of people who talk about opiate withdrawal like it never ends, and for most people that truly stop and stick it out, it does go away.

You always hear the horror stories about the guy who went to prison on 200mgs of methadone, or the guy who finally kicked a ridiculous dope run in lock up. It's bad, and there's people who have done it twice as long as me, so I don't know everything. but people exaggerate big-time when it comes to drugs. It is scary to kick dope, even if it's just a minor habit. All this self-loathing tries to overwhelm you. the best thing to do is just move on and live your life. I've babied myself way too much. Lived with my parents and hid in bed for months on end because "I was quitting hard-drugs"....A lot of it was laziness and not knowing how to go out and be around normal people.

Wow, I sound like I'm on the podium at a 12 step conference!

^^^you make it sound like hes never taken a break from dope or like he is a noob to the game..lol i think he more then knows what he is doing...

Tommyboy said:

I'm pretty set on taking a break from dope. I got high tuesday, then took off until today and was starting to come around but gave in for one reason or another. I guess one of the reasons what because I had a list of things to do around the house so it was either not do dope and feel too shitty to do the stuff and get high at night to deal with getting bitched at for not doing everything listed, or just get the dope so I could do all the work around the house which was the option I chose.

My regular dealer got a horrible batch of dope so that's part of the reason I wanted to stop. The other was that work slowed down a bit so my funds were limited, and if I tapped into my savings to get high my parents would have noticed and that would have led to a huge fight and me possibly getting kicked out of my house.

So instead I just stopped cold turkey, with nighttime cold medicine [DXM and doxylamine] being the only drugs I had in my withdrawal arsenal. I'm going to get some clonidine within the next day or so and I should be set as long as I have 3 days off from work in a row. Plan is to do the 3 bags I have left tomorrow afternoon/night, and that will carry me through Sunday before the withdrawals begin. I'm hoping that these 2 days of use don't put me back to square one with kicking, but they probably will minus a little intensity which the clonidine should take care of anyway.

I should have just stuck it out through my kick I was just going through but you know how that goes sometimes. It really wasn't that bad despite having been shooting 5 bags a day of some good dope. I guess that's because it didn't become daily until a few weeks ago, and it's just been a month of steady use, which by my definition is 3-4 days a week.

Click to expand...

what i wanna know is how would your parents know about what you do with your money? more particular with your savings account?

^ Since I moved back home they have me give them $60/day to hold onto for me so I don't blow it on drugs. It's not in a savings account and I know where it is so if I borrowed from myself they would figure something was up. Work slowed down recently and I was only giving them that much money for about 3 weeks, so it's not all that much money, but they have the amount written down so they know how much should be in the envelope.

It's kind of like a stipulation for me being able to live back at home since part of that money goes towards rent, and the rest is for when I'm going to get a car or an apartment, so even though they are holding onto it for me it's mine when I need it to buy something worthwhile. I don't mind it since I probably would have blown more money one dope if they hadn't done this.

BlueHues said:

^You've already had more than a chip for awhile....half a bundle a day for two weeks in your position probably definitely locked you into a true habit.....The first few times you can usually bounce back pretty quickly. It took me awhile to really experience the WDs in their full glory! I'm still not much of puker, it took years before I actually started vomiting from withdrawal, and I still don't get it as bad as some people I know.

You'll probably be able to completely bounce back pretty quickly if you stop now. There's a lot of people who talk about opiate withdrawal like it never ends, and for most people that truly stop and stick it out, it does go away.

You always hear the horror stories about the guy who went to prison on 200mgs of methadone, or the guy who finally kicked a ridiculous dope run in lock up. It's bad, and there's people who have done it twice as long as me, so I don't know everything. but people exaggerate big-time when it comes to drugs. It is scary to kick dope, even if it's just a minor habit. All this self-loathing tries to overwhelm you. the best thing to do is just move on and live your life. I've babied myself way too much. Lived with my parents and hid in bed for months on end because "I was quitting hard-drugs"....A lot of it was laziness and not knowing how to go out and be around normal people.

Wow, I sound like I'm on the podium at a 12 step conference!

Click to expand...

My worst kick was from suboxone. I was prescribed 32mg/day (I know, I know....) back in 2007, and took an average of 16mg/day for the 18 months I was on it. When I went away to school I had looked up suboxone doctors in the area and saw that there were 2, so figured I would have no problem getting it prescribed to me while away at school.

Of course I waited until the last minute to try to get an appointment, only to find out that there was a 3 month waiting list. Not a problem though, because my doctor had told me that suboxone withdrawal was minor compared to full opioids! I tapered down from 16mg to nothing in about two weeks, and by day 2 the fun started. Days 3-5 were the worst, with zero sleep zero appetite, and zero solid bowels.

The worst of it was over by day 8, and it took another week before I was back to around 80%. I lost a good 20lbs, and for the only time in my college career I stayed in for two weekends in a row without drinking. A few weeks later I discovered poppy pods on ebay, but it was a few weeks too late, but did at least help keep me from having to deal with PAWS for a little while.

My second biggest shock after how bad the withdrawals were, was how much the suboxone had raised my tolerance. When I got home for winter break and started dabbling with pain killers again I discovered that my tolerance was higher than it was before I got on suboxone (of course the first few uses got me high, but after that I needed way more than usual) but luckily I wasn't using that often.

I blame my 18 months on suboxone for permanently keeping my baseline tolerance high, with 60mg of oxycodone being about what I will always need to get me high even after taking 6 months off. I can get high off of 40mg the first time after a long break, but then it's 60 and rising each use after that, then when I get back into dope it's around 4-5 bags to get me high as long as I don't go too crazy with it.

Having said all of that, knowing what we now know about suboxone kicking it isn't as bad as my experience since the dose I was on is way higher than what we know we should be taking, and with a proper taper kicking is way more manageable than what I had to go though. I just happened to be prescribed it when it first became popular, and I doubt you will ever hear of someone being prescribed 32mg/day like I had been.

^32 mgs of Sub is insane! And they used to tell everyone that "there's no withdrawals at all"....If only that were true, it would be a miracle drug!

I know Tommy knows what's up, but that needle makes the whole situation more urgent! You get sicker quicker from IV, but it does something mentally to you to. You really start to see heroin as an absolute necessity...I'm just sayin it doesn't feel good to hit 30 with a dope habit and realize you spent you're whole 20s in a nod. when you're in your 20s, people don't expect you to have your shit together and world is a little more forgiving.

If you're 30,have criminal record, you're on dope and you have a workhistory with more gaps in it than you can even make up lies about to put on a resume, the world just writes you off! It fucks with your self-esteem and makes you wanna just keep getting high. The years just fly after 25!

Yeah the amount of bullshit the doctors and "experts" threw out there about suboxone when it first was becoming popular (and still throw out even now) was/is unbelievable. Practically everything they said about it was utter crap. Withdrawals no big deal, takes away cravings, can't get high on it, can't be abused, blah blah blah. Horse shit.

horrid suboxone withdrawals after your dependent on them.
haven't ever been able to stay off.
4 days into this try.

shit is BEAT

Mr.Scagnattie said:

Yeah the amount of bullshit the doctors and "experts" threw out there about suboxone when it first was becoming popular (and still throw out even now) was/is unbelievable. Practically everything they said about it was utter crap. Withdrawals no big deal, takes away cravings, can't get high on it, can't be abused, blah blah blah. Horse shit.

Click to expand...

And you can't forget the whole "the naloxone in the suboxone prevents you from IVing it, making it harder to abuse than subutex" but I'm sure that's what you were implying in your post when you mentioned how they said it can't be abused.

Ahh, if I had a track mark for every time I have seen someone mention that their doctor told them one of those lies/myths I wouldn't have been able to hit a vein in years, and even hitting my jugular would have been a distant memory.

BlueHues said:

^32 mgs of Sub is insane! And they used to tell everyone that "there's no withdrawals at all"....If only that were true, it would be a miracle drug!

I know Tommy knows what's up, but that needle makes the whole situation more urgent! You get sicker quicker from IV, but it does something mentally to you to. You really start to see heroin as an absolute necessity...I'm just sayin it doesn't feel good to hit 30 with a dope habit and realize you spent you're whole 20s in a nod. when you're in your 20s, people don't expect you to have your shit together and world is a little more forgiving.

If you're 30,have criminal record, you're on dope and you have a workhistory with more gaps in it than you can even make up lies about to put on a resume, the world just writes you off! It fucks with your self-esteem and makes you wanna just keep getting high. The years just fly after 25!

Click to expand...

God damn, that sounds fucking awful. Extremely honest and true, but awful still.. Thank god Im trying to finally get my shit together at 22 (and I thought I was too late)

BlueHues said:

^

I know Tommy knows what's up, but that needle makes the whole situation more urgent! You get sicker quicker from IV, but it does something mentally to you to. You really start to see heroin as an absolute necessity...I'm just sayin it doesn't feel good to hit 30 with a dope habit and realize you spent you're whole 20s in a nod. when you're in your 20s, people don't expect you to have your shit together and world is a little more forgiving.

If you're 30,have criminal record, you're on dope and you have a workhistory with more gaps in it than you can even make up lies about to put on a resume, the world just writes you off! It fucks with your self-esteem and makes you wanna just keep getting high. The years just fly after 25!

Click to expand...

yeah man i cant agree more about them writing you off..like for me i dont know wether to lie or not about having a felony. the last 2 jobs(botrh retail) didnt even drug test or run a background check, so i always am reluctantt to0 put that on there cause i know being fro mthe retail management position, if you see a felonby you pretty much toss it causetheres no many other people that dont have one. and why i struggle with it is bc mine is just fgor weed possission. which most people wouldnt really care about but it never gets that far really if i do tell the truth. then after putting in say 10-15 a week and you dont even get calls back, you kinda get depressed and stop looking and just keep getting high abnd like you said the years fly byafter 25. im only 27 but i havent had "real" job in like 4years..orginally i was just gonna take the summer off cause i wourked from 17-24 parttime so i never really got the perks like paid vacations. so since i had my other juob hustling and i had my savced from work and from inheritance trust, i figured i would take the summer off and take a trip. then i started looking and since i had like a 8month gap, they all made a big deal off of it and i never got hired. so i kept hustling and stopped looking..then i got arrested twice in 6moths and i went into deep depression. i started doing dope 4x a week instead of 2 and i lost 60pounds and shit just felt like i was in a hole and i didnt know what to do. my mom would bitch about me not having a job but me payin the property taxes for 2 years in a row made her quiet quick.

now flash forward and its been 4 years sincei had a real job with a paycheck..ive worked a little bit during that time durning the summersmostly doin some construction and driveways and brickwork but it was all paid in cash and it wasnt a real full time job beimg tjay they were both my friends family business so they just kinda hooked me up for the summer but then come fall when things statrted to slow down, iwould get let go being that i wasnt on the real payroll and all that..

now, im lving out here in indidana taking care of my great aunt cause her son is in jail(yall already know this story so no need to retell it) but im gettin $500 week to jus live with her..my day goes like this; wake up at 745 and give her a bowl of cereal and cup of tea and newspaper, then i lay back down until 1145 or until she calls me again and then i get up and feed her lunch and then i might stay awake and smoke a blunt and watch some tv, or i might go back and lay in bed, then i go shopping if she needs me to, but thats not every day maybe 3-4xmax a week AND THEN I COME HOME AND RELAX TIL 6 WHEN I MAKE DINNER, and then most of the time she just asks for a tv dinner but i try and only let her eat that once a week othewise she would eat that shit eeryday...then i just have to keep the house in check and cllean but thats real easy since she doesnt really walk and i only use 2 rooms myself, and thats about it really and for doing all that i get $500/week and that was negotiatied bc since he got locked up they didnt know what to do with her,. it just so happend i was stayin out here cause my mom kicked me out cause we where fighting about me not having a job and after 2 weeks of being here, my uncle got locked up and we looked around and saw that a 24hr live in caretaker would cost anywher ebetween 1000-1500/week, and they idnt really want to put her in a home and she didnt want to movce out to coorado where the rest of her ffamily lives. and so i didnt have ajob and said ill do it for 500 and they agreed..so thats what im doing now...shitty part is well a good thing i guess and thats i only get 200-250/week in cash and the rest has to go into the bank. thats fine i guess cause i got my other accounts but still sucks i wish i had all 500 to play with lol been.[/QUOTE]