Ideas, resources and questions you would like addressed about addiction and recovey?

Addiction is a fascinatingly complex beast.. Here in sober living we would like to put together a reference thread that attempts to cover as many approaches, questions about, concepts behind addiction, while providing links to as many resources as possible for treatment. Please use this thread to state any ideas or concepts about addiction or treatment you would like to see covered; also to bring up any ideas or strategies that have worked for you. Also please include any questions you have and we here at sober living and recovery support will do our best to compile an extremely comprehensive tool for addict and those affected by addicts to use to improve everybody's lives AT this time we are not interested in specific treatment places and the BlueLight user agreement will be enforced. What we are interested in is what worked or is working for you and what information may help you out

I am just throwing out some questions/ideas here for discussion. Perhaps some of them warrant their own threads but I'll allow moderators to make them if they want to.

OK I have questions about cravings and what to do about them besides not giving into them especially when you are stressed out or having not so fun things happen in your life? I have heard how they are "normal" for an addict to have and that they lessen over time, is this true?

Also is it possible to be sober and stay sober without constantly going to 12-step programs/meetings? I realize they have helped some people but most people I know who are sober and actually are sober just went to AA/NA or meetings at first and got a sponsor and then stopped going once they became sober and moved on with their lives they did not continue going to meetings for the rest of their lives.

What about dealing with isolation as a lot of us addicts do this? What are good ways to meet sober friends besides AA/NA or 12-step meetings? Also what about if you are newly sober, looking for work, and what to do when interviewed and asked about a large chunk of time like a year or even more that some addicts have where we did not work or were working on rare occasions?

DrunkardsDream said:

Also is it possible to be sober and stay sober without constantly going to 12-step programs/meetings? I realize they have helped some people but most people I know who are sober and actually are sober just went to AA/NA or meetings at first and got a sponsor and then stopped going once they became sober and moved on with their lives they did not continue going to meetings for the rest of their lives.

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Everybody is different, and people can achieve sobriety in various ways.
I know people who have successfully kicked heroin addictions without the help of na meetings, 12 step programs or meds.. But its hard.
A lot of addicts cannot achieve this alone, so these programs are in place as an optional solution for anybody who needs the support..
If you are struggling, my advice is to give the meetings and programs a go.
They are very helpful.

All of the steps but particularly 10, 11, and 12 are a lifelong practice. It is very difficult to practice step 12 without going to meetings. It reads, "... We carried the message to other alcoholics...". This basically means you will always be going to meetings and sponsorsing people. Quitting your DOC is the tip of the iceberg. If that is the only thing you get out of recovery then you have really short changed yourself.

Mehm said:

All of the steps but particularly 10, 11, and 12 are a lifelong practice. It is very difficult to practice step 12 without going to meetings. It reads, "... We carried the message to other alcoholics...". This basically means you will always be going to meetings and sponsorsing people. Quitting your DOC is the tip of the iceberg. If that is the only thing you get out of recovery then you have really short changed yourself.

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I am and always have been spiritual and I was raised religious. Going to AA meetings and getting sober was not spiritually revelatory for me and my life did change but not spiritually or in a religious way.

I am against AA/NA and 12 step programs since to me they are like a cult or substitute addiction based on groupthink, caffeine, and sugar. Ever notice how they serve coffee and sugary junk food at pretty much every AA/NA meeting? Or how in literature like the book "Living Sober" they tell you to eat sugary things when you have cravings for alcohol or your drugs of choice, or as a reward. People who have totally swallowed the AA flavorade/Kool-Aid will tell you that if you do not go to AA then you are not really sober, that you are a "dry drunk", headed for a relapse, and I have had some AA people tell me when I stopped going to meetings that I was going to die.

Is AA a cult?:

Here's something I wrote for a similar question:

When they told me that if I left I would die, I had my first doubts about the program.

I call it cult-like or cult-lite, mainly because if I call it a cult, people stop listening and there's no chance of dialog.

AA historian Dick B calls it a beneficial cult. Harvard professor, researcher, and former member of AA's Board of Trustees, George Vaillant said:

"In a balanced review Nace 1992 has examined some facets of AA that attracts criticism. First because of its idealogical nature members are not encouraged to take a scientific or dissionate approach to the study of its effiacy. Personally based loyalty to the ideology of AA comes into conflict with the empiricism of the research community.

Second AA does not hold opinions, individual members like any partisan group can be extremely and erreonously opinionated.

Third , AA certainly functions as a cult and indoctrinates its members in ways common to cults the world over."
"The Natural History of Alcoholism Revisited", pages p. 266

AA critic Orange suggests that it is a cult:
Alcoholics Anonymous as a Cult & The Cult Test:
http://www.orange-papers.org/

Whether it is a cult or not is irrelevant. Is it a destructive cult? It does seem to meet the criteria set by Lipton for a a destructive cult:
Milieu Control
Mystical Manipulation
Demand for Purity
The Cult of Confession
The "Sacred Science"
Loading the Language
Doctrine Over Person
Dispensing of Existence
http://www.csudh.edu/dearhabermas/aacultbk01.htm

Also: http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/ofcourse.htm

Other methods or groups besides AA that are not 12 steps?:

SOS:
http://www.sossobriety.org/

SMART:
http://www.smartrecovery.org/

LifeRing:
http://www.unhooked.com/index.htm

WFS:
http://www.womenforsobriety.org/

RR:
http://www.rational.org/

Harm Reduction for alcohol:
http://hamsnetwork.org/

And with all those options, the majority of people, 80%, quit on their own.

"Another estimate is that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated. One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them. Twenty-nine percent said health problems, frightening experiences, accidents, or blackouts persuaded them to quit. Others used such phrases as "Things were building up" or "I was sick and tired of it." Support from a husband or wife was important in sustaining the resolution."
Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction — Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, October 1995.

Personally, I feel that all those groups are great for those who have been through AA and have had it pounded into their heads that they NEED a group in order to quit. That's wrong, but AA has been very successful in getting people to believe that piece of misinformation.

Being around others for support can be a good thing, but ultimately, it is up to the individual to use or not.

Relevant experiences?:

I bounced in and out of AA for almost 20 years, never achieving more than a few months of sobriety trying to do it their way. AA taught me that I was powerless, that I couldn't stay sober without them, that it wasn't my fault, I had a life-long disease.

It wasn't until I turned my back on AA, took responsibility for my addiction that I could take responsibility for my recovery and I got sober.

I really liked the book "In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts" by Dr. Gabor Mate and I think he did a really good job of exploring the whys of addiction and what's going on chemically in the brain and why people from certain backgrounds and experiences feel the need to manipulate their brain chemistry in such a way. So I guess I'm just looking for more information on the biochemistry and psychology of addiction, especially anything written as sensitively with an eye to harm reduction as in Mate's book.

Thanks Guys great posts.. lots of perspectives, good questions and areas to address, and great suggestions and links.. keep them coming!!!!

i get annoyed when i hear addiction being referred to as a disease,
its like bi polar is a disorder
there are eating disorders
attention defficit disorder ,,,

like sure when your rendered insane by drugs i can see that as a sickness or a disease, but when you go out and get a trick, thats your 'disease' acting up,

like we have a choice in this, people with cancer or aids, have no choice,
i really dont get it,

i guess its just semantics , but it still anoys the hell out of me, my disease told me not to post this but i showed it .... lol


and scientists have said addiction is a disease, really scientists. ,,,

^^There is big differences in how an addicts brain and body respond to various drugs vs the brain/body of a non-addict. It is truly akin to how a diabetic responds to sugar or any other situation where a certain food aggravates a particular disease. The research on this is extensive.

DrunkardsDream: In your fist post you make it sound like you have just gotten sober again and are wondering if you can make it without AA. In your second post you sound like an old hand at recovery and have been sober for years without AA. How long have you been sober this time around if you don't mind my asking? Also, have you ever worked all 12 steps and continued practicing 10, 11, and 12 on a daily basis. If you haven't then your really haven't "done AA". Going to meetings is a small part of the program of recovery.

Hey guys lets keep this thread to the original idea.. If we want to debate our ideas the twelve step discussion thread is the place or if there is a debate about smart there is also a new thread on that approach.. I KNOW YOU GUYS HAVE IMPORTANT CONCEPTS YOU FEEL ARE CRUCIAL to an all encompassing information thread about addiction.. Or questions, am I the only one that has questions about this.. no way.. what do you have??

One cool resource I wanted to mention is a zine called 'Filling the Void" that's written from the perspective of people in the punk/diy subculture getting sober. It mostly talks about alcoholism, but I think plenty of it applies to other addictions as well. If you don't really fit into the dominant culture, sometimes you can feel really isolated, even in the recovery scene, because you don't necessarily share the same ideals about what you ultimately want out of sober life. It really helped me feel less alone.

I guess I think that's a pretty big issue I'd like to see more about. If you're part of a subculture or countercultural movement, I've found that people sometimes expect that you will all of a sudden want to live a life that is more in line with "normal culture" when you get sober, but atleast for me, I think a big reason I turned to substances is because of the pain of living in a culture that doesn't share my ideals. I'd specifically love to see more about recovery in anarchist communities.