Opioids The Kratom Mega Thread v3

Beavesmx44 said:

@ChemicalSmiles- 35 grams per day? Holy shit no wonder. Never heard someone taking that much regularly.

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I feel pretty fucking horrible.. and im stil ltakign 15 gs a day lol!

See just when I read some positive cases and I think Im warming to the idea of it being worth the risk I read another wildly contradictory case to refute what Id just read!

I have been watching a few heroin documentaries and they have been 'scaring me straight'. The one about a guy who was a journalist and got hooked 'just to try it' and ten years later still hooked. I worry if it might end up just wanting to try and end up like that- the one try and your hooked type of thing- not once obv but the more you take it and like it is the more youll want it isnt it. Do you know of many cases of casual use where ppl take it then dont take it for long periods because all you lot seem to be daily hitters .

I suppose converse to other substances even for daily addicts of this substance you are still 'high functioning addicts' in that it doesnt impact on your daily life like addiction to other things would. So I suppose that is a case in favour of its relative harmlessness. But the thought of withdrawals sends shivers down my spine because even tho Ive never experienced them, I am very familiar with stim comedowns (tho certainly dont wanna feel that shit again!) and imagine that physical withdrawal would be worse since it would last way longer.

ChemicalSmiles Would you say you have the so called 'addictive personality'? Its like when I was doing my research on crack we were discussing how those who talk of being addicted, and the most visible users you see on the streets, would probably have been addicted to something else anyhow (Not to give a fatalism that everyone who is like that necessarily will always be like that though).

Now Im 30 I like to take less and less risks in life as I begin the long slow decline to death. So Im always trying to carefully weigh up the odds. Its just a case for me to decide if it's worth risking it or not.

Yes I have an addictive personality.. classic polysubstance abuser since I was 16.

ChemicalSmiles said:

OK yes... both of these are worse for me than kratom... but saying tobacco has worse withdrawals... I dunno.. I guess that could be your personal experience...

I see statements comparing kratom to caffeine regularly.. coffee etc... It sorta irritates me.. lol. Ive been struggling to come off kratom.. and keep in mind, ive kicked heroin, opana, and xanax before... (granted.. it did take a bit of time with each, but I did it..) Going from 35 grams to 25 was extremely painful... 25 to 15 hurt like a motherfucker too.. and at 15 a day... I still am sick about 25% of the time, and only sleep 4 hours a night.

For most people... the addiction isnt much of an issue.. but it can REALLY grab hold of some. I thought I was making the right choice jumping from subutex to kratom... I would have been better toughing out the last couple weeks of the subutex...

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Don't get it twisted with the coffee comparison, I'm in NO way using that bullshit arguement that kratom is no more addictive than a cup of coffee. I was reffering to it's effects which with no arguement can be used as a coffee replacement. Is every coffee user an addict? Of course not so dependance vs effects should be kept a seperate topic. That arguement pisses me off to no end as well and I have made several posts explaining how misleading that is to new users. Kratom is most definately more addictive than coffee and the withdrawals are far worse. Here's one of the many posts I have made warning a misinformed user:

Definately be aware that if you keep using the withdrawals from kratom are FAR stronger than that of coffee. Don't get me wrong kratom withdrawals are nothing compared to a true opioid habit but that "as addictive as a cup of coffee" bullshit is just that...bullshit. I think the KA spreads this around to keep kratom legal and while I'm all for that this misleads users into thinking that they will be fine with habitual use only to realize that the withdrawals are very real. Just a heads up.

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As for the comparison to tobacco, tobacco is with no question more unhealthy for you than kratom. Addiction potential may differ but coming from both an ex nicotine and current kratom addict(by choice, I've succesfully quit many times only to realize life was simply better with kratom), ciggarettes were way harder to quit. Everyday I go to the liqour store I'm temted by tobacco, for what, a measly 30 sefond headrush? I don't even know why I crave tobacco, they taste like shit, smell like shit, cause cancer, make your teeth yellow, take from my weed money, the list can go on but yet my body still craves them. Tobacco has some powerful hooks when it comes to addiction, far worse than kratom which is addicting for me only because of the positives it brings to my life. Tobacco's mental withdrawals make kratoms physical withdrawals a joke for me. Keep in mind, I'm not a previous opioid addict so I'm on a fresh slate with a mu agonist addiction. I'm sure your aware that your withdrawals are gonna be way harsher than that of a kratom addict with no prior addiction history so it's not really fair for your experience to represent what kratom addiction is. Yes kratoms withdrawals are real, yes kratom withdrawals suck, but it's honestly one of the easiest habits to quit IMO. Most things doctors hand out carry a worse dependance risk with less benefit. Also the negative/positive ratio is in kratoms favor, for me at least, I'm more than aware alot of this is subjective.

TL;DR Fuck off govt, let the people decide whether or not they want to ingest this plant. Many find the positive to outweigh the negatives.

CaptainKratom said:

As for the comparison to tobacco, tobacco is with no question more unhealthy for you than kratom. Addiction potential may differ but coming from both a nicotine and kratom addict, ciggarettes were way harder to quit. Nicotines mental withdrawals make kratoms physical withdrawals a joke for me. Keep in mind, I'm not a previous opioid addict so I'm on a fresh slate with a mu agonist addiction. I'm sure your aware that your withdrawals are gonna be way harsher than that of a kratom addict with no prior addiction history so it's not really fair for your experience to represent what kratom addiction is. Yes kratoms withdrawals are real, yes kratom withdrawals suck, but it's honestly one of the easiest habits to quit IMO. Most things doctors hand out carry a worse dependance risk with less benefit. Also the negative/positive ratio is in kratoms favor, for me at least, I'm more than aware alot of this is subjective.

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My experience may not represent the average users experience.. but I felt it would be wrong of me not to include my personal experience in this thread. I have had a LOAD of struggles with kratom.. and feel people should hear both sides.. good and bad! Prior to making a decision if they want to use it. This is a harm reduction website afterall.

^ Of course, don't take my post as me shooting your experience down, not at all. I'm simply pointing out that there is a huge difference between a kratom addict with a prior opioid addiction and a kratom addict with no prior history. Previous addicts have already shown that their ability to use any mu agonist sparingly is lower than the average person, all you did was switch one addiction for another, your withdrawals may have lessened a bit in the process but your still going to have stronger withdrawals than a simple kratom addict. Kratom most definately can have a dark side for many, no doubt, the post that was directed at baooozs was simply to explain why I believe kratom should be legal, there are worse things out there that are legal that are more taxing both mentally and physically. I believe adults are responsible enough to make their own decision whether or not they want to take kratom. Should we ban paint because some dumbass wants to huff that shit all day? Of course not.

Merge:
@berdo, comparing heroin addiction to kratom addiction is a bit more than extreme. Kratom doesn't carry the devastating withdrawals or euphoria that heroin has, in other words a documentary on heroin addiction is in no way shape or form a representation of kratom addiction. If your so scared of addiction then steer clear, however, keep in mind all the other potentially addictive substances that are at hand that you have been able to avoid. Not every kratom user is an addict, my GF and close friends all use kratom but I'm the only one dependant on it.

One thing you wanna keep in mind is that if your self-medicating your at a higher risk of addiction but if your at your wits end sometimes you have to accept that your gonna need to be medicated eventually and the good majority of medications for your problems either don't work and/or carry a stronger dependance than kratom, it's simple. You don't even know if you will enjoy kratom yet. Like I said previously, there are ways to avoid dependance however these tactics may take a bit of willpower, if you feel your weak willed and don't even want the risk of dependance then don't take kratom, go to therapy. I know you said you don't want reccomendations for therapy but that's really the only way your gonna get past your troubles with no chance of dependance. Even then though you can pretty much bet that an SSRI will be part of your treatment, at least if your in the US, I'm not sure if other countries are the same.

Yeah I believe kratom does more good than harm overall....

people with polysubstance abuse history, or even heavy opiate use in the past.. should heavily weigh the risks.. before starting to take kratom.

I agree with everything ya said ^

After struggling with my opiate addiction for over 10 years I decided to try kratom. I'm a formerIiv user for 7 of thoes years. AnAnyways I had been on 8mg of sub every other day for about 2 months. Its been over a week since my last dose of sub "about 3mgs". I was having a hard time with cravings so I decided to give it a try. Found a vendor, I got 1oz of white sumatra and 1oz of red Thai. I took 5g of the white today. An hour later I began to feel the effects. Very pleasant, stimulatingsome eeuphoria def could feel an opiate feel, nothing overwhelming. About 2 hours into it there was some mild stomach discomfort which has since passed. I can tell how this can be addictive esp to an opiate addict. Anyways overall I'm very pleased with it, its calmed my cravings and has given me some energy as well.

Captain (and anyone else who has known infrequent users) Im interested to hear statistics of your friend's use and also of your usage of how long you quit for in between your periods of dependency and how many times.

I think this would offer a nice rainbow of different usages cos like I said most people have been daily users from what Ive read which is not what Im after and wondering how hard/easy it is to keep to a now and then thing. All well and good saying it hypothetically as a daily user but doing is a different matter hence why reports of others who keep this schedule and their prevalence would be useful. From what Ive gathered dependent users outweigh part time users.

Its been hard sorting the wheat from the chaff because of the misinformation spread by the likes of kratom association who want to 'sugar coat' everything about the substance which I feel is pretty much as bad as the 'anti drug' propagandists cos both are just as misleading maybe even worse as it it could get you in more trouble.

Berdo tm1 said:

wondering how hard/easy it is to keep to a now and then thing.

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This is so depending on the individual person it's nearly impossible to say. From personal experience I lean towards not too hard to keep it now and then; I've used Kratom for years only in fortnightly intervals. Nowadays it's more (2 - 5 days a week), but that's because I have had too much time on my hands the last few years and it's a conscious choice. Having said that, I must add that I'm a polydruguser and I rotate or variate with other, sometimes very different, substances (although the larger part of the time of the fortnightly intervals of Kratom I wasn't). I do this in a way I don't have much cravings for or addiction to any specific substance, but I must admit that I do crave taking substances in general. Also, still, I have a fairly strong will. I have actually never been a real daily user, I'm very ok with my current schedule of a couple of times a week and don't get cravings or wd symptoms. So, if you can stick to a plan and your personality isn't a very addictive one, I'd say keeping Kratom a now & then thing is pretty easy. It's only after a couple of weeks of daily use that the troubles begin, if you stay away from that, you'll stay away from these 'troubles' and Kratom will stay just wonderful. And stick to plain leaf, because extracts like UEI are more addictive (and expensive). Maybe only for a treat once in a while.

^Thanks. Yes of course you cant say how one person you don't know on the net will react. That is why other people's 'case studies' provide valuable info as their prevalence or lack thereof along with their disposition/brief history of overall drug use provide a better idea of how the individual might fit into the scale. Ive never been a big binger on anything really except for short spells like a month or two before learning my boundaries or stopping altogether but I never wanna get overconfident and say 'that could never happen to me' hence 'caveat emptor' .

I agree that this is a highly subjective question to say the least. My GF uses kratom once, maybe twice a week at 5g doses and has no cravings or mental addiction to it whatsoever. Keep in mind she lives with me and has access to my kratom whenever she wants to, not to mention I make kratom tea twice to three times a day so if she wanted to she could go all out but kratom just doesn't have that "pull" for her. Same with my friends, my friends also have kratom about once or twice a week and only when they come to visit or we spend the weekend tripping or rolling and want something to bring us down to earth, none of my friends even have kratom in their house except one friend who keeps small amounts around for when his back starts acting up. Me on the other hand, I am self-medicating with kratom for my anxiety, occasional motivation issues, work induced back pain, and for the mood boost I get from the plant. I've been a user for over three years and have had 3 times where I quit for a period of over a month with the longest break lasting three months.

When I quit I simply switch to 200mgs of tramadol in the day time followed by anywhere from 1.5 to 3 grams at night. Each day I lower my tramadol dose by 25-50mgs and usually within a week to week and a half I'm down to nothing more than my bedtime dose which I can either keep tapering or make the jump. By week two I'm usually off everything and by week 3 I'm nearly 100% myself again. When I quit I always feel like I made a stupid decision, what I mean by this is I get no sense of satisfaction because I just kicked a habjt that wasn't even difficult and only made my life more positive(again, highly subjective). At first I thought that it was just the kratom addict in me trying to make excuses so I took a 3 month break and during this whole time I still felt the same way. My anxiety, motivation, mood, and focus issues all came back to how they were pre-kratom and I simply felt like a sick person without his medication so I said fuck it and went back on kratom. I've already proved to myself that I can easily quit however I see no reason to, I need to be medicated and kratom is simply taking the place of a less effective treatment that will be given by a doctor.

In no way shape or form should you take any of these experiences of others and make correlations to how kratom will affect you. Everyone is different, some people hate heroin, some people hate meth, everyone has their drugs of choice and their own varience in willpower. IMO just buy an oz already and see if kratom even works for you, you seem to be getting worked up about being addicted to kratom yet you don't even know what it does or feels like. It's not like your gonna take it once and be addicted, lighten up a bit, kratom isn't even comparable to heroin like you think. I see no reson why you wouldn't be able to use kratom sparingly, however I don't know your track record with other substances. Have you ever had a drug problem before?

Good info, thanks. It's reassuring to hear infrequent do-able for some especially as you say for your gf she has constant 'on tap' access.

Na no drug 'problems' not for long anyhow of maybe a month or two then I just stop. Tried crack, speed, mdpv, coke all that junk and no probs stopping when it was time usually only trying most once or twice. The only one I got a little carried away with was coke but as soon as I was going to fail my studies I stopped immediately.

If its less mentally addictive than those then it should not be any prob, but like I said Im alot more cautious these days is all since I have my own business/apartment now and so have to/want to be more responsible. Just making sure it won't have me out on the streets homeless in a couple months selling my ass for another hit

Ye Ill see how I feel by end of this week- not been a bad week moodwise so far. Then just 'nut up' and get some if I decide I fancy it.

You seem like the type of person that will have absolutely no problems with kratom going off the info provided, it's definately less compulsive than the substances you listed. Give it a go man, you seem like you've done your research.

I know it sounds silly but I've escalated my dose from 9-12 grams a day to 15-20 grams and i've run out today (hopefully will be receiving more tomorrow). i have no withdrawals so far (it seems to take a while for withdrawal to kick in, at least a day for me). I've got etizolam and pregabalin but I really miss that warm invisible blanket feeling kratom gives. no benzo can match that (and i've been addicted to benzos on and off for years).

How long have you been using? For the most part, my kratom withdrawal starts 5-6 hours after last dose (yeah, lucky me) but every once in a while it's like my withdrawals get turned down to 20% and I'm actually able to ride it out til the end. Kratom addiction is strange, some days the withdrawals are really bad and sometimes I get off with what feels like nothing more than the mildest cold, makes me wonder how much of it is mental. With etiz and lyrica you should expect not much more than some RLS, runny eyes and nose, and perhaps insomnia although I don't want to get your hopes up, it's certainly nothing compared to benzo withdrawal.

I went to rehab for an opiate addiction 3 years ago now. I have gone through a few ounces of kratom over the course of around 6 months. 2x per week use on average during that time at around 5 grams per dose. Unlike other opiates I have a good handle on it and don't even care to use more often than that. I enjoy it but my girlfriend who has never had an opiate said she didn't really care for it and would rather drink a beer. She will say no thanks to marijuana most of the time too so who knows with her. For me personally this substance is far less addicting than marijuana. Like others have stated its probably only a potential issue for former addicts and a relatively small one at that.

I haven't had much experience with head shop kratom as I have always used online vendors. However, due to unfortunate circumstances, I've run out and had to go through a few days without so I went a head shop and bought 'da pimp bomb' capsules. Has anyone had experience with this brand? Granted I was in w/d when I took it but it seems like it is way too strong. I've been taking kratom regularly for about 3 years so I am not a noob in any sense of the word.

Just curious as I certainly would not have expected a head shop brand kratom to have this potency. By the way, I average about 15 grams a day and took about the same amount in capsules. Maybe its just my tolerance is down from having to abstain, just curious to see if anyone else has had this brand before.

CaptainKratom said:

How long have you been using? For the most part, my kratom withdrawal starts 5-6 hours after last dose (yeah, lucky me) but every once in a while it's like my withdrawals get turned down to 20% and I'm actually able to ride it out til the end. Kratom addiction is strange, some days the withdrawals are really bad and sometimes I get off with what feels like nothing more than the mildest cold, makes me wonder how much of it is mental. With etiz and lyrica you should expect not much more than some RLS, runny eyes and nose, and perhaps insomnia although I don't want to get your hopes up, it's certainly nothing compared to benzo withdrawal.

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I used to take kratom twice a week average, I started daily last summer when I came off benzos to help my anxiety. Now I'm taking both kratom and etizolam and my prescription lyrica (best stuff I can get in the uk, doctors are afraid of benzos) daily. I'm going to try and taper off etizolam again when I run out (I have about 150 left and my tolerance requires at least 4mg a day to stop withdrawals). I received my kratom today thankfully, I think one of the worst withdrawal symptoms for me are the extreme hot and cold flashes, also get the usual RLS, insomnia, anxiety, complete lack of appetite.

Thanatos9 said:

I used to take kratom twice a week average, I started daily last summer when I came off benzos to help my anxiety. Now I'm taking both kratom and etizolam and my prescription lyrica (best stuff I can get in the uk, doctors are afraid of benzos) daily. I'm going to try and taper off etizolam again when I run out (I have about 150 left and my tolerance requires at least 4mg a day to stop withdrawals). I received my kratom today thankfully, I think one of the worst withdrawal symptoms for me are the extreme hot and cold flashes, also get the usual RLS, insomnia, anxiety, complete lack of appetite.

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Just be careful with coming off etizolam since you had a previous dependence to benzos. Chemical structure may be different but by all indications it has the same effect. I can't advise on that end since I've never been dependent on benzos but in respect to kratom, taper taper taper. The lower you go the easier it will be. I've recently found that immodium actually does wonders during withdrawal making it almost non-existent.