Benzos Addiction misconception

It seems like some automatically believe that because benzo X is shorter acting than benzo Y than X must be more addictive than Y.

That is simply NOT TRUE. The more short to intermediate acting benzos are generally more physically addictive. Things like lorazepam, temazepam, lormetazepam, etc.

In another thread someone was claiming (I believe it was xxxyy) that midazolam and triazolam are most addictive, this is not true.

According to Dr. Ashton, triazolam may be the easiest to withdraw from:

In my experience, the only exception to the general rule of slow reduction is triazolam (Halcion). This benzodiazepine is eliminated so quickly (half-life 2 hours) that you are practically withdrawn each day, after a dose the night before. For this reason, triazolam can be stopped abruptly without substitution of a long-acting benzodiazepine. If withdrawal symptoms occur, you could take a short course of diazepam starting at about 10mg, decreasing the dosage as shown on Schedule 2. The same approach applies to the non-benzodiazepines zolpidem and zaleplon which both have half-lives of 2 hours.

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Source

Psychologically (mental addiction), anecdotal evidence suggests temazepam is more addictive than others - due to its rapid onset, toxicity, and other pharmacokinetic properties. I'm sure everyone has heard of the amputees and the blind that continue to use to temazepam despite the risk it poses to them. That's hardcore.

i find opioid/opiates to be far more physically and psychologically addictive than any benzo

mrflowers00 said:

i find opioid/opiates to be far more physically and psychologically addictive than any benzo

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well no duh! we are talking about benzos here, not opiods. I can name a hundred other substances more addictive than benzos.

Hard to get addicted maybe, but once your in you know it.

Does anyone know if it takes multiple weeks of taking alprazolam or diazepam to develop withdrawal symptoms after going cold turkey?
Would you put these two benzos in the same category - as in do they have a similar features of onset and toxicity? I suppose it is very different for each body each drug enters.

mrflowers00 said:

i find opioid/opiates to be far more physically and psychologically addictive than any benzo

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benzos are different.
an example of your case: opiates being generally abused at recreational doses for recreational effects

take mg of a benzo a day for a couple months, stop, and say you're not DEPENDENT

DonStatus said:

Hard to get addicted maybe, but once your in you know it.

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Captain.Heroin said:

I could definitely tell the difference between having anxiety, and the sensation of going off of alprazolam.

To develop a severe dependency to benzodiazepines, you would have to use it for many weeks, probably months. However, you will likely notice a difference after one week of continuous use if you go off of it.

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There's nothing to really argue about here. Benzodiazapines are tough drugs to come off of. If you took it for a week I would say it's giving you rebound anxiety and intensifying it, not a true withdrawal but still discomfort. The longer acting ones do build up in your body unlike the shorter acting ones, but there all addictive. With triazolam the half life is so dam short it wont even hold a person, i'm sure if you took it on top of a longer acting benzo you would really be in for a fun time when you quit.

Comparing opiates to benzo's is like comparing apples to oranges. I would say that opiates have more of a pull for most people, but once you do become dependent on benzos they are going to be the most addictive thing on the planet. It takes a lot of time and effort getting off of them, there arn't as many "outs" as there are with opiates. No maintenance drugs, unless you consider a long acting benzodiazapine to be that. I do think they are recreational drugs in the same sense that alcohol is.

For this reason, triazolam can be stopped abruptly without substitution of a long-acting benzodiazepine...The same approach applies to the non-benzodiazepines zolpidem and zaleplon which both have half-lives of 2 hours.

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I disagree on the zaleplon part.

I used to snort zaleplon, 20 – 30mg / day. Once, I ran out early and went without it for a few days. The day my refill was due, I got stuck in the lab late doing a complex manipulation, I forget what. My mind was racing, hardly able to concentrate on one thing. I reached a stopping point, said screw it, and ran to the pharmacy to get that refill. I got home, railed 5mg, and got back to normal. No brain fogginess or inebriation; I just got back to normal. I then got back to the lab and finished my work for the night without problem.

I would say that despite its very short half life, zaleplon definitely causes dependence.

It's not in question that benzodiazepines and non-benzodiazepine Z-Drugs cause dependence, kokaino is saying that according to Dr. Ashton (of The Ashton Manual, which is a popular method used by doctors when discontinuing benzodiazepine therapy), super short acting benzodiazepines like triazolam which fully leave your system are easier to withdraw from than the longer acting benzodiazepines such as temazepam, diazepam, clonazepam, nitrazepam, flurazepam, etc. I could go on but I think we get the point.

I believe xxxyyy had mentioned to kokaino regarding whether hypnotic benzodiazepines were more addictive than anxiolytic benzodiazepines in that other thread.

kokaino said:

It seems like some automatically believe that because benzo X is shorter acting than benzo Y than X must be more addictive than Y.

That is simply NOT TRUE. The more short to intermediate acting benzos are generally more physically addictive. Things like lorazepam, temazepam, lormetazepam, etc.

In another thread someone was claiming (I believe it was xxxyy) that midazolam and triazolam are most addictive, this is not true.

According to Dr. Ashton, triazolam may be the easiest to withdraw from:



Source

Psychologically (mental addiction), anecdotal evidence suggests temazepam is more addictive than others - due to its rapid onset, toxicity, and other pharmacokinetic properties. I'm sure everyone has heard of the amputees and the blind that continue to use to temazepam despite the risk it poses to them. That's hardcore.

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Withdrawals aside - There is also the fact that temazepam is greatly more available than some of the others. You can guarantee those guys IVing temaz would have done the same with midaz, flunitraz etc... if they were more readily available for abuse.

Yes, addiction and physiological dependence are 2 different things and are not always correlated. For example there are some drugs that are highly addictive but don't create much of a physical dependence, and some drugs that are highly dependence-causing but are not addictive. I have found for me, shorter-acting opioids are much more addictive but longer-acting ones are more dependence-causing but less addictive. I think benzos are likely the same way. Of course it's a generalization and does depend on the individual, because drug preferences and addictive tendencies are highly variable and depend on someone's unique brain and metabolism. People are capable of getting addicted to something that is not actually "addictive", and some people are capable of taking something addictive without getting addicted. When you have both a strong addiction and a physical dependence to a drug is when I think it is most difficult to quit.

For example, methamphetamine and methadone. One produces a strong psychological addiction and the other a strong physical addiction

I've found short acting benzodiazepines to lead to more redosing due to them wearing off, but the problem is longer acting benzodiazepines don't seem to work much longer than short acting benzodiazepines, like clonazepam does not work at all for me so I end up redosing way more than I would with alprazolam, triazolam, etc.

With diazepam and other long acting benzo's, I'd end up taking more on an equipotent level than I would with a more potent short acting benzodiazepine, hence my preference for shorter acting benzodiazepines like alprazolam, triazolam, temazepam, etc. (Not including z-drugs, fuck z-drugs)

$0.02

I just spent the worst 3 days of my life on psycological dependence mixed with the physical dependence benzo withdrawal. It sucked hard. I couldnt even hold phone convos properly at first....This is after quite a few months of clonazepam use mixed with lorazepam and xanax on and off. Shit was hell. Now im down to taking a low dose of lorazepam on there own on a weekly basis until i find the right theraputic dose as opposed to turning my intake into a recreational munching fest or as opposed to not enough lorazepam, its difficult but after that experience of withdrawal i have vowed to never abuse benzos again in the way that i was. Its just not worth it. They have no recreational value at all.

According to Dr. Gibson and his associates, this is temazepam withdrawal from medical literature:

Abrupt withdrawal after long term use from therapeutic doses of temazepam may result in a very severe benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome. There are reports in the medical literature of at least six psychotic states developing after abrupt withdrawal from temazepam including delirium after abrupt withdrawal of only 30 mg of temazepam and in another case, auditory hallucinations and visual cognitive disorder developed after abrupt withdrawal from 10 mg of temazepam, 5 mg of nitrazepam and 0.5 mg of triazolam. Gradual and careful reduction of the dosage, preferably with a milder long-acting benzodiazepine such as clonazepam or diazepam, or even a milder short to intermediate acting benzodiazepine such as oxazepam or alprazolam, was recommended to prevent severe withdrawal syndromes from developing. Other strong hypnotic benzodiazepines, whether short, intermediate or long-acting are not recommended. Antipsychotics increase the severity of benzodiazepine withdrawal effects with an increase in the intensity and severity of convulsions. Depersonalisation has also been reported as a benzodiazepine withdrawal effect from temazepam.

Abrupt withdrawal from very high doses is even more likely to cause severe withdrawal effects. Withdrawal from very high doses of temazepam will cause severe hypoperfusion of the whole brain with diffuse slow activity on EEG. After withdrawal, abnormalities in hypofrontal brain wave patterns may persist beyond the withdrawal syndrome suggesting that organic brain damage may occur from chronic high dose abuse of temazepam. Temazepam withdrawal has been well known to cause a sudden and often violent death.

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Tripman said:

Withdrawals aside - There is also the fact that temazepam is greatly more available than some of the others. You can guarantee those guys IVing temaz would have done the same with midaz, flunitraz etc... if they were more readily available for abuse.

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Tripman I doubt it. All these benzos have been available for ages, but they did not cause the addiction epidemics across oceans that temazepam did. Flunitrazepam is still available in most European countries as an hypnotic, whereas temazepam is banned in some of the countries where flunitrazepam is still prescribed (Sweden, Norway). In Germany, they will script you flunitrazepam before they give you temazepam. I was there last August. There IS anecdotal evidence that says temazepam may be more habit forming than other benzos (psychologically). Those that were IV'ing temazepam were a small portion of the whole picture. Most took them orally. It's toxicity correlates well with its dependence liability. It is more toxic than other benzos because it is more rapid acting and has certain pharmacokinetics that make it more apt to be abused. I believe temazepam along with the middle of the line benzos to be more psychologically addictive than most other benzos, especially hypnotics. But temazepam is a special case because of its unique pharmacokinetics.

Physically, the worst benzos to withdraw from are lorazepam, temazepam, lormetazepam, alprazolam, bromazepam, nitrazepam, flunitrazepam, nimetazepam, etc. (long-acting hypnotics are very bad too, but long acting anxiolytics such as diazepam aren't as bad I'd say).

kokaino said:

Tripman I doubt it. All these benzos have been available for ages, but they did not cause the addiction epidemics across oceans that temazepam did. Flunitrazepam is still available in most European countries as an hypnotic, whereas temazepam is banned in some of the countries where flunitrazepam is still prescribed (Sweden, Norway). In Germany, they will script you flunitrazepam before they give you temazepam.

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Then again, in Finland, flunitrazepam is not available, and temazepam is offered on the first doctor's visit for people presenting with insomnia, as easily as the Z-drugs. Here in the Netherlands, flunitrazepam is available, but I know of nobody who has been prescribed it - and like Finland, temazepam is prescribed easily (despite being of a higher tier in the Opium Act). In these two countries, the only drugs that I have been offered for insomnia before temazepam was mentioned are the Z-drugs - and often, temazepam was first.


As for addiction potential in general, I would agree that intermediate-acting benzos can be just as addictive, if not more so, than the short-acting ones. I'd say that it depends quite a bit on the effects profile; withdrawal from something like alprazolam does suck, but the effects will mostly be rebound anxiety - with something like nitrazepam you'll find yourself unable to sleep, aching all over, and possibly a little spastic.
What might make the shorter-acting drugs seem more addictive (especially psychologically) is that the blood concentrations drop from an active dose to virtually nothing in a short period of time; half an hour ago you were fine, but now you're trembling all over. With drugs like diazepam there is a slow, declining plateau - the very reason it is used for tapering.

Why are you so obsessed with temazepam Kokaino? Almost like a fetish. I mean it's good and all, one of the better benzos, but IMO it's not that unique. I liked it, but others weren't impressed. They liked Xanax and Rohypnol better. Still I don't know why it's not more popular than Ativan and Klonopin/Revotril.

I will say it's the best damn sleeping pill I've tried. Not really sedating, more relaxing. Lower doses don't suppress REM sleep, unlike most hypnotics. It's half life is just perfect, not long enough for a bad "hangover" and not short enough for a quick rebound effect.

I think that temazepam, though a major drug of abuse in some countries isn't as widespread as you claim. Particularly after they first put the anti-abuse Gelthix shit. Then when pillheads got around that by melting them down to shoot, sometimes hitting an artery and sometimes dying or losing a limb, they replaced it with regular pills. It seems to have died down and be on the decline. I believe the number one benzo in the world is good old Valium. I'd say that flunitrazepam is more sought after, probably in second among street drug users. Hell I'd bet that methaqualone has more total users.

I don't think temazepam is anymore toxic than most other benzos. It's LD-50 in animals about like diazepam, though blood levels raise higher in humans than animals. I'd say the most toxic benzo are triazolam and midazolam. Death from an OD of them is a very real possibility but is rare with most benzos. 2mg of Halcion could cause an OD, and therapeutic doses of midazolam have killed people(rarely).

I'd say that alprazolam is one of the more physically addiction benzos. It can cause withdrawal serious enough to cause seizures in as little as two weeks and at doses as low as .75mg a day. Although withdraw is more common at doses above 4mg/day and after more than 6 months. And it's short acting, the longer ones like diazepam and clonazepam kind of taper themselves off. Hell they and even phenobarbital are used to get off short acting benzos. I bet triazolam would be the worse if someone was taking high doses constantly, but it's generally not given anymore than 1mg/day, often just .25mg to .5mg tops.

I think one of the reasons temazepam is more popular in some countries is the liquid gelcap formula are absorbed much quicker, like in 20-30minutes vs. 1.5 hour with the capsules. The pill are even slower. It's half-life is bi-phasic, first one is .4-.6 hours, then the second is 3 to 18 hours, average 8. Mean with the pills or capsules it's absorbed slower than it's first half life, but with the gelcaps you can feel the peak levels. IV may be really strong. It might be like some anesthetics where it's duration is shorter than it's half-life.

^ Regarding the toxicity of various benzos, you are dead wrong. Not one set of data, but several have all come to the same result and that is that temazepam is the most toxic benzo. Where do you get the idea that triazolam and midazolam are the most toxic? Is that your own personal opinion? You are obviously grossly misinformed on this subject. I'd do a little research before pulling "information" out of thin air and claiming it to be fact. LD50 studies are conducted on mice. Humans are not mice. The fatal toxicity index of temazepam is far higher than any other benzo, as per a 1991-93 British study and a 1995 Australian study.

Benzodiazepine toxicity study

Fatalities due to Benzo poisoning.

Temazepam was implicated in 491 out of 921 benzodiazepine related deaths in the UK between the years 1991 and 1993.

THC2LSD said:

I'd say that alprazolam is one of the more physically addiction benzos. It can cause withdrawal serious enough to cause seizures in as little as two weeks and at doses as low as .75mg a day. Although withdraw is more common at doses above 4mg/day and after more than 6 months. And it's short acting, the longer ones like diazepam and clonazepam kind of taper themselves off. Hell they and even phenobarbital are used to get off short acting benzos. I bet triazolam would be the worse if someone was taking high doses constantly, but it's generally not given anymore than 1mg/day, often just .25mg to .5mg tops.

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Regarding the bolded part, is that fact or did you just pull numbers out of thin air and claim it to be true?

I've been on alprazolam for over 5 years, I've been through withdrawals and not once have I had a seizure. I think you are making up your own facts as you go. Medical literature on benzodiazepine, particularly temazepam withdrawal, is aplenty. It is the only benzo that had a serious abuse epidemic and so research was done as it took its course. I suggest you do a little research before you begin making up numbers and making unfounded claims.