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Beat It
02-06-2012, 22:39
The last 6 months have been by far the most productive of my life. Great grades in school (3.75 GPA) full time, full time job, working out everyday, reading a lot, writing a lot of music and living with my girlfriend. All thanks to Kratom, no other drugs were really used or needed. Kratom increases my motivation, helps with depression/anxiety, and helps me focus/ retain information. However, bank account is running thin and I'm outa school and lost my job so I didn't have the excuse to continue taking it. It was hard to quit, took a lot out of me. Despite what people say, when you use Kratom daily for a long time, the withdrawals are painful. Went through a lot of Ambien to sleep the first few days off and a bunch of Loperamide for my stomach and then had to sit through days 3-5 without anything to help. Finally got my Ambien prescription refilled but I'm taking too much of those 4/ day to sleep though night. I'm on day 8, Need some help. My stomach is well enough to eat but the depression/anxiety is killing me. Never had any problems with the drug until I got off of it. I know it just takes time but I want some relief now and something to help get my motivated to get out of bed. It feels like the Ambien is counterproductive but it's the only think that helps with the anxiety. Trying to get used to not having my super powers, feel like I've been crippled.

andyn6990
03-06-2012, 05:24
Heya dude, Im currently having the same problem as you, Ive been taking kratom for about 6 months ive been finding it a wonder drug for my anxiety and depression issues, Im currently taking about 150 to 200g of bali a week , Ive tried kicking it and had a really awful time my depression was so bad i was having some psychotic symptoms and panic attacks i couldnt believe that kratom could do that and am now petrified to kick it again :-( Im currently about to try and taper down slowly and hope it works better , I wake up mornings and my head is so foggy and disconnected and all i think about is getting the kratom down and all the symptoms just dissapear, I would suggest tapering down slowly instead of just stopping cold turkey i think that was my big mistake last time i just didnt expect the horrid mental agonizing depression and panic i was getting, What kratom are you currently taking and what dosage? ,im doin toss and wash with the powder! This is a great place for support and everyone understands what your going through here ,Feel free to give me a pm sometime! Andy!

podsnomo
03-06-2012, 22:17
Beat and Andy, I know the fear you have of the depression/anxiety when it's not there, while you are on kratom, and the feeling shitty when you stop. I'm using Kratom now after a long taper down off of a ridiculous amount of poppy pod grounds.

For a taper, find your dose that makes you feel just normal. Drop by 25-30% and keep that dose for 3-5 days, repeat. If you make a drop and get some symptoms, they should go away soon. If they don't, stay on that level until you even out some, then drop again. When you get down to a tiny amount and feel ready, that's when you quit.

If you can't or don't want to taper, look into people's methods for quitting opiates and the helper drugs they use, and other things like saunas, exercise, etc.. For PAWS, some have had success with DXM. I think I'm going to try low level doses of that, doses that won't produce any kind of trip and see how they affect the PAWS. Your depression/anxiety/insomnia after the initial withdrawal is PAWS.

Andy, none of us 3 here can do PMs yet as we are all still under 50 posts. Maybe we can have a good discussion here and fix that. I hope you guys log in and check a lot. I'd love to help you both and will appreciate your support in return.

Peace,
pnm

Beat It
04-06-2012, 21:25
Thanks guys, I'm new to the site and wasn't sure if I would get much of a response. I was worried a lot people were going to respond, "oh it's just Kratom withdrawal." I don't think people take Kratom addiction very seriously. I'm glad to hear someone with the same testimony! This forum is awesome! Everyone I talk to in real life hasn't even heard of the drug.

Well I've actually successfully been off of Kratom for 10 days now, but I was consuming about a half pound every 10-14 days. For me, tapering didn't work because I didn't have that kind of self restraint. I just felt like taking my beating all at once but it has been a long painful ride. The physical symptoms lasted 5 days but then the depression/anxiety started to kick in. Those have yet to subside. I also lost my job 4 days into withdrawal. Didn't help!

At this point I'm having a difficult time with depression/anxiety, sleeping and eating a healthy three meals a day. I was 167 before with very little body fat and I'm almost down to 150 now. I'm also in a mental fog all of the time and I'm too stressed to function. I guess I'm looking for ways to get back to normal now. I'm taking a lot of ambien and I'm concerned that might be messing with my recovery. Plus, I don't want to trade a kratom addiction of an ambien addiction, the stuff is bad I hear.

Beat It
04-06-2012, 21:31
I would suggest tapering down slowly instead of just stopping cold turkey i think that was my big mistake last time i just didnt expect the horrid mental agonizing depression and panic i was getting,

That's what I'm saying! I could deal with the physical part way better than the secondary mental part. At this point I just don't want to get back on it!... Way too damn expensive.

podsnomo
05-06-2012, 00:05
Damn, well if you can't taper, do all the other things that help your brain readjust. Basically, your brain stopped making it's own morphine to some extent. So, do things that make it squirt out some endorphin, which is short for endogenous morphine. I can send you a link if you haven't read about these things.

Masturbate, often, or have sex if you have SO. Exercise, lightly, twice daily or so. Eat healthy food. Keep going. Do stuff. Plan and execute. It is expensive to taper, so if you find you just can't cope, invest in just enough to taper. But, be glad it's not a hardcore H habit you're coming off of. I'm guessing (and hoping) you're nowhere near curled up in the fetal position in the bathroom puking and shitting on yourself. So, not sure it makes you feel better, but it could be worse, and is a good caution not to take your affinity for opiate-like stuff to the next level.

FWIW, I took 120mg of DXM this morning and though I felt pretty odd, I didn't have nearly as much anxiety and the chills totally went away. I've felt better all day. 120mg is basically 4 times the recommended dose, which seems like a lot, but it's nowhere near the 300-500 needed for a trip, or the 700+ some robo trippers report using. I may use this dose, or maybe a bit less each morning for a few days and then taper that down. It seems to be easing the transition. Be careful though, if you decide to take more than the recommended dose, the first time you do it make sure you've got nothing to do for the rest of the day. It affects everyone differently.

Are you using loperamide and other helpers like aleve, etc.? Also, melatonin and valerian for sleep if you get the insomnia. Let me know if I can help. Definitely advise you cut down on the ambien and supplement it with valerian and melatonin. The sleep will come back, eventually. But you don't want to get in trouble with the ambien. Way worse news than quitting a kratom addiction. Taper the ambien, add the valerian, and just force yourself to eat during the day. Proteins, veggies and fruit, the fresher the better. Stay away from red meat as it has a hormone that increases inflammation, and you need that like you need another hole in your arse.

Peace and love,
pnm

Beat It
06-06-2012, 22:56
Thanks for the informative post pod. Today is first day since I stopped that I've actually felt better. (day 15) I'm on my last script of ambien for a long time and I only have 8 left so I'm gonna lower my doses to half a night until my script is out. Gonna be hard though since its been the only thing I've been able to use to help me get to sleep. Loperamide has been a lifesaver and has really made my recovery thus far work. I think getting a good run in and eating some fresh food really helped me feel better today. Without being judged, does anyone know how long until I can take a dose of Kratom again without feeling withdrawals from using? In the future, I want to be able to take a dose on the weekends to relax but I don't want to precipitate another withdrawal.

podsnomo
08-06-2012, 02:25
Good question beatit. If you are sure you can keep it to just the weekends, then you have more control than I. I tried that many times. Never worked for me, and I'd caution against it.

As far as how long you should wait, I'd suggest 30 days of feeling good without it. I'd also urge you to leave open the option of not going back to it just for the weekends, that is, not going back at all. IME, you can do this without causing serious withdrawals, though you'll get some minor ones. Worse, IMO, is that you'll reignite your cravings every time. Right now, I hazard to guess, that your desire to use on the weekends in the future is because of your obsession to feel that good feeling again. Totally normal. And I'd be the last one to judge you for it. But if you try to just use on the weekends you will, likely, torture yourself during the week with the psychological cravings. Stronger men than I have succumbed to these and gone back to their old habits, and usually worse upon the return to the habit.

Kudos on the good run and eating better. I'm so out of shape, and a cig smoker, so 40-60 pushups over the course of an afternoon is all I can do, but it's better than nothing.

IF you go back to using once on a weekend here and there, be very careful. You get that Kratom in your hands, you take a dose, you feel good, then it wears off...again, and you think "ah what the hell, 2 doses is no biggie, then no more till next weekend". Then, some withdrawals, probably minor, and they remind of the worse ones you just went through. The panic of doing that again, and you just want to stave it off for now. "OK, just dose now and feel OK now, then worry about later later." Then, poof. The habit's back.

That's what I've done anyway. And I know of tons of guys who have done the same. Wouldn't you like to live a nice happy life and be pleased by the things that please normal, sober people? I would, and that's where I'm trying to get to. Once we've had a habit though, we have some feel-shitty to go through to pay for all the feel-good we had. I'm trying to spread out the feel shitty. I got off of pods, from what I've read that's a lot tougher than Kratom. But now I'm tapering Kratom, so I know that ain't no easy road either.

You might be able to handle the weekend only thing, I don't know you at all. But I know addicts, and IF you are one...well you can't turn a pickle back into a cucumber. If you wanna try it, I wish you the best. For now, just take it as it comes, day at a time, and see if you can do 30 days without. You might be feeling so good then you won't want to chance going back to your habit, and you can spend that cash on something more lasting than a buzz. Do what you will. My main advice is be kind to yourself, and leave that option open of not going back to using ever. You may find it to be better.

Love and peace,
pods-no-more

Beat It
08-06-2012, 06:19
Yeah I hear what your saying. After going through the last (correction) 13 days as of today, I don't ever want to get physically addicted to anything. For my experience, it took 12 days for all of the physical w/d symptoms to stop and the severe depression/anxiety to lift. Although, at this point, there are still some lingering symptoms like depression/anxiety and frustration, these symptoms have become much more manageable in the last couple of days! While I know that there are going to be/ already been others who's experiences with withdrawals were much worse than mine (no I never shat on myself in the fetal position), mine was bad enough that I never want to go through that again!

However, at the same time, I don't want to demonize Kratom use and forget about all of the good qualities it has. It was my fault that I started abusing the drug and using it everyday all day thinking that the positive effects would last forever. I also don't want to forget the reason i started using it in the first place, to quit drinking. I had a very bad reputation with my drinking habits and rightfully so. I used to drink all the time, black out every time, break stuff and mess friendships up. I never want to go back to that. So, I hope that after I have enough sober time under my belt, I will be able to use Kratom recreationally and responsibly.

Pods-no-more, you've got a great head on you shoulders. Maybe you've been through sometime like this before? I'm gonna take your advise on waiting for 30 days and keeping the option in my mind of not ever using it again. The one thing I've never really tried since I started using drugs to be happy is getting sober and staying sober long enough to really feel better. I think I'm gonna head in that direction and see where it takes me. Maybe someday I can forget about using...hmm

herbavore
08-06-2012, 07:49
Hey, all! just a welcome to all three of you and also kudos for your mutual support--that's what we are all here for. Using this thread to discuss what you are doing and helping each other is great--no need to PM unless you have something more private. (P.S. This thread (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/624382-How-Are-You-In-One-Word-v-I-know-the-feeling!) is highly useful for the post count ;))

podsnomo
09-06-2012, 05:40
Thanks for the compliment beatit. And I am both glad for you and proud of you for considering that option of staying clean. For me, I wish I had done that a loooooong time ago, but now I'm fighting what I'm fighting, and I'm making progress still!

And yessiree, I've been through lots like that before, and maybe worse. I'm not saying it was harder for me...it's hard for everybody, and you're no exception. It just may be that I've done the tough road a few more times, and I'm looking to never look at that road again.

So, if you said it before about using kratom for quitting drinking, I missed it. I started using pods regularly when I quit drinking... And pods aren't too much different in this department. That is, the department of needing/wanting something to get a buzz from. It was for me like, OK, now I'm "sober". I don't get drunk all the time, but I take these pods, and they make me feel better, the way kratom does, and SO, it's like still having something you can use to alter you mood to get it where you want is nice.

It was like a safety blanket for me. I was sober from alcohol, and much healthier as all could see, and I could attend an AA meeting with a mild pod buzz or a kratom buzz and no one was the wiser. So, then me thinks me is invincible and in no danger. Until the day(s) I begin to realize that my problem is getting worse, just like my drinking did.

Addictions seem to have some basic patterns in my mind. 1. Drug/alcohol/whatever makes you feel great! 2. You keep doing it. 3. It's starts to not work as well as it did in the beginning. 4. You use more. 5. You keep using more and add something else to help it make you feel better. 6. Things start shitting on you. 7. You want a way out, but it's scary, so a total release of any mind-mood altering drugs seems unfathomable. 8. You make great strides to quit the main evil, but keep or add a lesser evil. 9. The lesser evil makes you feel great. 10. see #1 and repeat.

It's a sure trap. And for those of us addiction-prone, it gets us often. If you can go back to using Kratom on the weekends for a good buzz, and that's all you want, why not go to working out, or skydiving, or something low key that is fun. You could have all that fun without putting yourself at serious risk for getting back into habit(s).''
Plus, the money you used to spend to get your kratom on, could be spent for these things, And DUDE, if you ever go skydiving, ...major cred among your peeps. Balls of steel he has, they'll say. I went.

You say you never really tried being happy sober. Me either, for a rRrREEEALlly long time. It can happen though, and it's SUCH a much better happy than the sporadic happy of being buzzed and then not being buzzed but wanting to be. Try it. You have worth, value, and a life to live. Oh yeah, and if no one has told you that they love you today, well, I do.

Aaaaaaaaand don't knock AA until you try it. A 12 step program seems extreme, like it's only for the people having seizures in the gutter before the liquor store opens. But it's not. The people there are amazing. From pot heads to hard core freebasers, an addict is an addict. If you have trouble staying clean, these people know the solution and live it. It's not for everybody, just for people who can't stay sober but want to, and in following a simple program, they do.

All my heart to your pain,
and all my hope to your recovery,
PNM

kickingkratom
10-06-2012, 00:53
Hi guys,

I've been addicted to kratom for 4 months. Compared to some other stories I read, of people who were addicted for several years of daily use, even extracts, mine seems so trivial. But I know I am addicted, and the withdrawal (PAWS I think) has been quite hard for me. I'm currently nearing the end of my taper plan. For 4 months I was using 10-20g of bali powder a day, then I cut that down to like 6g, and started tapering down and now I'm at 3g/day. Tomorrow I'm planning on knocking it down again to 2.25g. The depression and anxiety have been the hardest part for me. And beatit, props on going cold turkey. I tried that once and was overcome with really bad depression and hopelessness, so I know what you've been feeling. Tapering has helped reduce the intensity by a lot, but it's still very frustrating and I believe taking a while longer. I just want to be back to normal. I am grateful though that I realized I had a problem before I continued to take kratom, because I know it would only make withdrawing that much worse, and I don't think anyone can take kratom for the rest of their life.

Reading about other people going through kratom withdrawal has helped me a lot. I'll be checking back here probably daily for the next couple of weeks. I too think that not many people take kratom withdrawal seriously, and I wouldn't know how bad other drug withdrawals could be (I'm sure they can be magnitudes worse) but this is the first time I've ever been addicted to something and I really have no one else to talk about this with.

slayerhatesusall
10-06-2012, 01:44
Good question beatit. If you are sure you can keep it to just the weekends, then you have more control than I. I tried that many times. Never worked for me, and I'd caution against it.

As far as how long you should wait, I'd suggest 30 days of feeling good without it. I'd also urge you to leave open the option of not going back to it just for the weekends, that is, not going back at all. IME, you can do this without causing serious withdrawals, though you'll get some minor ones. Worse, IMO, is that you'll reignite your cravings every time. Right now, I hazard to guess, that your desire to use on the weekends in the future is because of your obsession to feel that good feeling again. Totally normal. And I'd be the last one to judge you for it. But if you try to just use on the weekends you will, likely, torture yourself during the week with the psychological cravings. Stronger men than I have succumbed to these and gone back to their old habits, and usually worse upon the return to the habit.

Kudos on the good run and eating better. I'm so out of shape, and a cig smoker, so 40-60 pushups over the course of an afternoon is all I can do, but it's better than nothing.

IF you go back to using once on a weekend here and there, be very careful. You get that Kratom in your hands, you take a dose, you feel good, then it wears off...again, and you think "ah what the hell, 2 doses is no biggie, then no more till next weekend". Then, some withdrawals, probably minor, and they remind of the worse ones you just went through. The panic of doing that again, and you just want to stave it off for now. "OK, just dose now and feel OK now, then worry about later later." Then, poof. The habit's back.

That's what I've done anyway. And I know of tons of guys who have done the same. Wouldn't you like to live a nice happy life and be pleased by the things that please normal, sober people? I would, and that's where I'm trying to get to. Once we've had a habit though, we have some feel-shitty to go through to pay for all the feel-good we had. I'm trying to spread out the feel shitty. I got off of pods, from what I've read that's a lot tougher than Kratom. But now I'm tapering Kratom, so I know that ain't no easy road either.

You might be able to handle the weekend only thing, I don't know you at all. But I know addicts, and IF you are one...well you can't turn a pickle back into a cucumber. If you wanna try it, I wish you the best. For now, just take it as it comes, day at a time, and see if you can do 30 days without. You might be feeling so good then you won't want to chance going back to your habit, and you can spend that cash on something more lasting than a buzz. Do what you will. My main advice is be kind to yourself, and leave that option open of not going back to using ever. You may find it to be better.

Love and peace,
pods-no-more

I've been taking kratom every 3 days for the past 6 months with the occasional week break and haven't got addicted to it again surprisingly, although I probably will eventually due to the annoying slight day after withdrawals and the fact that I only really get stuff done while on it, the other 2 days I'm bored and don't really do anything and only really enjoy anything while on it. Tried working out and it helps a bit but not enough. I would be surprised if I was able to not get addicted to it in the next month or so, and I don't really see why not, its really cheap and I'm not exactly strapped for cash, and it makes me feel good enough so I can actually get stuff done and isn't dangerous.
Maybe thats just the kratom talking for me since I took it yesterday, I don't even know anymore or care.

podsnomo
10-06-2012, 06:36
Hi guys,

I've been addicted to kratom for 4 months. Compared to some other stories I read, of people who were addicted for several years of daily use, even extracts, mine seems so trivial. But I know I am addicted, and the withdrawal (PAWS I think) has been quite hard for me. I'm currently nearing the end of my taper plan. For 4 months I was using 10-20g of bali powder a day, then I cut that down to like 6g, and started tapering down and now I'm at 3g/day. Tomorrow I'm planning on knocking it down again to 2.25g. The depression and anxiety have been the hardest part for me. And beatit, props on going cold turkey. I tried that once and was overcome with really bad depression and hopelessness, so I know what you've been feeling. Tapering has helped reduce the intensity by a lot, but it's still very frustrating and I believe taking a while longer. I just want to be back to normal. I am grateful though that I realized I had a problem before I continued to take kratom, because I know it would only make withdrawing that much worse, and I don't think anyone can take kratom for the rest of their life.

Reading about other people going through kratom withdrawal has helped me a lot. I'll be checking back here probably daily for the next couple of weeks. I too think that not many people take kratom withdrawal seriously, and I wouldn't know how bad other drug withdrawals could be (I'm sure they can be magnitudes worse) but this is the first time I've ever been addicted to something and I really have no one else to talk about this with.


Hiya kratom kicker! No addiction is trivial and no person is trivial. You mention PAWS, and this acronym gets tossed around a lot. It stands, of course, for Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome. But without an acute (CT) withdrawal, where does this syndrome come from? Answer, INMHO, our minds. Once we have a name for something we like to call it that, and if we're going through something we want to find out what it is, just knowing it has a name makes a person feel better, 'cause then you have a named entity with which to contend.

Here's the rub though, what your dealing with probably isn't PAWS, and anyway, no two people experience this so called PAWS the same way.

Truth is: when you stop using a feel-good after using it for a long time, you go through some feel-shitty. Luckily the feel-shitty is shorter than the habit. But whatever we call it: PAWS, WDs, etc., .... it all comes down to adjusting to life without this expensive crap that keeps getting us further down that shit hill on which the opiate train runs to nowhere good.

KickingKratom, don't worry if your taper is taking longer than you like. Do the taper you can do. Drop when you can, monitor yourself, and adjust your taper. For example, say you take a modest .25 gram drop, and it's kind of shitty, not dreadful, just not good, but you can still function. Good! Keep that dose until it gets better, and it will in a day or two. Then wait another day or two for the next drop. Point is, be kind to yourself, and don't expect miracles. Just go day by day, and do the best you can each day to get closer to your goal. Progress is all that is truly important. Schedules...fuck 'em. Focus on your progression.

I know you want to be back to normal, so do I. Whatever normal is, if you get there first, tell me about it. Just know that it will take some time. Everyone talks so depressedly about going through it, but what if we tried to think of it as labor pains in a days, weeks, or months long birth. Fuck the pain, right? I'm gonna get a NEW me outta this. I know the flipside of that too though, being in that place where you're so panicky, scared, depressed, and feeling like shit that that nice big green mound of kratom, or any other DOC, sounds like heaven. Coping skills are what we need for this part, coupled with the belief that we are good people trying to something extraordinary. Seriously, kicking an addiction out of self will is extraordinary. It's also kind of a paradox, because self will got us all into this mess.

And to your point about taking kratom for life. You're right, it's not suited for that, unless you want to be eating buckets of it for breakfast lunch and dinner everyday, which, if done, could lead to the first ever kratom death. Kratom is a tricky animal. It's been used well by those tapering off of serious opiate habits, but it's also been the thing that, once it begins to require huge doses, leads people to heavier shit like oxy/roxy/h/pods and so on.

Last thing here. you seem to worry about the fact that kicking hardcore habits is much more involved, gross painful and so on. Just because you're not going through hardcore H withdrawal doesn't mean your addiction is trivial. And for damn sure, YOU are not trivial. You're here aren't you? Trying to figure out what to do.

It's the psychological part that is the worst once the physical symptoms begin to clear. ANd whether it's some who shit themselves for days or someone in a tornado mentally over trying to kick kratom, it's impossible to compare the psychological symptoms of WD. It's also pointless to compare them, except just to share experiences and try to learn from others and help others. KickingK, you're going through TOUGH shit. I feel you my friend. Don't think that just because you haven't lost your hous and your family and years to prison time and been to hospital-detox 8 times that your plight is unimportant. On the CONTRARY.

Not only are you just as important, and not only are your feelings and pain just as legitimate as any other addict of whatever severity, but the goals we addicts have are the same. Sobriety, one. Then, eventually, happiness in sobriety, and then helping others who have fucked themselves the way we have.

2.25 g/day is pretty low (not extract right?). Either way, just keep moving toward where you want to be.

I'm currently at 3-4 grams 2-3 time a day. This is the taper of a taper, down from buckets of poppy pod grounds multiple times daily. I haven't set my taper plan for the kratom yet, but tomorrow, I will take less than today, and see if that's ok. If it is, then I'll take a little less the next day. When I start to get problems I'll stay on the problem dose until it becomes a manageable dose (3-5) days. Then drop, adjust, drop adjuct, until ZERO.

And while doing this I am going to phase in a workout schedule as my kratom use phases out. That, and I'm going to eat better, and be nicer, and just keep that idea in my mind of freedom, of waking up every day feeling good or at least not-shitty, of not obsessing over using, of not craving, of just living, because then I can truly do whatever I want, and I won't be wanting drugs or drink then.

All my best to you,
pods no more

podsnomo
10-06-2012, 06:46
Slayer, your tone worries me, and I don't mean it derogatory. It's just... You're here checking out these threads but seem to be tempted to say "Well fuck it,". You seem resigned to be heading down the road to solidifying your addiction to Kratom. You say you don't even know o care anymore.

I can identify with those feelings. I had them EVERY day when I was hard core drinking and taking poppy pods daily.

I can't say anything that will *poof* make things better.

All I can say is that there are solutions and you don't have to live like that.

You'd be surprised how many people are in our kinds of shoes and never talk to each other,
which is mainly why I attend AA. The content and literature is good, yeah,
but getting to meet and talk with people who are or were as fucked up as me or worse,
that's fuckin' gravy.
It's like all these people who would prolly never talk to one another, and we have this common bond,
because as soon as I meet a knew person, we already have a major fucking demon in common.
It makes unexpected friendships quite surprising.

I'm rambling. I hope you get through the darkness of post use.
It goes away.
Whatever happens, we don't want that to happen today.

If no one has told you they love you today,
well,
I DO.

Peace,
pnm

Eyes On the Roll
10-06-2012, 13:42
Really?? Kratom withdrawals?? I used to take 300mg a day of oxycodone, and I quit cold turkey. Sure, the withdrawals sucked, but I stuck it out and got through it by myself. Are kratom withdrawals really this bad? Compared with real opiates. Oxycodone withdrawals are bad, but I got through them nonetheless. Even though it was a real opiate the process of quitting wasn't as dramatic as you guys are making kratom withdrawals sound. Never knew kratom had real withdrawals.

podsnomo
10-06-2012, 20:29
EyesOTR, Yes and no. There are probably tons of people out there who quit kratom no problem, but everyone is different. For the majority of people it might be easy to quit, but for some of us it obviously is not. Your post borders on condescending and derogatory. It borders on calling these guys wimps, on making their plights seem trivial. And it more than borders on pissing me off a bit.

I'm glad you got through that WD process from that serious habit. Hats off to you for that, but you must surely know that people with a fifth or less of your intake have had far worse troubles in WD, PAWS and staying clean. There are way too many variables at play to say that your process of quitting wasn't as dramatic as my friends' habits here. Everyone is at different places in their lives, have varying degrees of psychological problems, health issues, life circumstances, body chemistry, and on and on.

So, here's your lesson for the day: YES, for some people, kratom has real and serious WDs. It seems they may be more psychological than regular opiates, but that doesn't matter. These guys, and me too, are suffering and trying to beat addictions. So please, don't come into this thread and SEEM to act like your harder or stronger because you kicked a massive oxy habit. I'm really glad you did, and I hope that that part of it can be of some inspiration to my guys here. But ANYbody coming in here and even hinting at downplaying the troubles of these guys will get a rebuke from me. Kindness and support is all that should be in this thread as we support each other in achieving our goals.

Kindly, EOTR, please be kind to these guys or just don't say anything.

To Slaying, Kicking, Herbavore, Beatit, and Andy and anyone else reading this, I've got your back.

I hope I wasn't too harsh on you EOTR, you really do have something to be proud of kicking that habit. Please understand that anything that might dampen these guys spirits and jeopardize their success I will roundly and soundly refute, rebuke, and ask kindly for more empathy and kindness.

I love you all, you too EOTR,
podsnomo

Eyes On the Roll
10-06-2012, 21:41
The reason why I ask is because I'm on probation now, and I'm a poly substance abuser. I started drinking, and that's about all I can do, and drinking isn't too good for you. I was thinking about buying kratom online, and only because I thought it was non physically addicting. I don't want to get hooked on something again, but I figured if I could substitute drinking with kratom.. well you know.

kickingkratom
10-06-2012, 22:52
pnm,

I really, really appreciate you taking the time to respond to my, and everyone else's comments. It has helped me a lot, and I'm glad to know I have your support and also that you're going through something very similar to me.

With that being said, I unfortunately also have to say that today has probably been the worst day so far. Again, it's the depression and anxiety that have been unbearable. I also just realized that it is only the 6th day since I have significantly reduced my daily doses (probably by too much). This is both comforting and worrying for me. It worries me because, well fuck, it’s only day 6. It feels like it has been forever, and I was hoping that the symptoms would be lessening. On the other hand, the majority of kratom withdrawal stories I’ve read have said that days 7-14 can actually be the worst. This makes sense to me because it's been almost a week since I dropped from using 10-20g (of powder) a day down to 4g, and am now at 3g. I think I might hover around this level for a while because I think I have a few days of shit coming up. Hopefully by mid-end of this week I'll be feeling okay again and ready to decrease my dosage.

Good luck pnm, slayer, beatit and andy with your tapering/kicking (and anyone else too) and I'll be checking back here frequently! By the way, if anyone has found out some strategies for dealing with the withdrawal please share. I've found valerian root and camomile help for sleeping, and exercise (lifting weights for me) makes me feel better for a few hours afterwards.

podsnomo
11-06-2012, 17:51
The reason why I ask is because I'm on probation now, and I'm a poly substance abuser. I started drinking, and that's about all I can do, and drinking isn't too good for you. I was thinking about buying kratom online, and only because I thought it was non physically addicting. I don't want to get hooked on something again, but I figured if I could substitute drinking with kratom.. well you know.

I see. Sorry again if I was harsh. I'm kinda protective of these guys. It's hard to say man. Kratom is certainly better for you than drinking, but it can become addictive and/or habit forming. The withdrawals from k are usually described as far less severe than from opiates, but I think it's more that they are just different. For me, and I think for a couple of the others here, if you use it to combat depression and you start on it in a sort of vulnerable, tough spot in your life, then coming off it is awful because the psychological WDs can be maddening. Also, when I ran out of pods once, I was trying to take enough of the stuff to stay feeling good or OK for the whole day, since I was working long days. Problem is, once you take so much in a day, and if you build a tolerance, it quits working and seriously fucks up your stomach. It's a weird animal, I think partially because it's a plant, with lots of complex stuff, and not a nice refined pharm. It doesn't show up in UAs and is legal, so if you think it could help you quit drinking, maybe you should try it.

My caution would be to prepare yourself to be moderate with it. If you can, use it only once or twice a week. It's not some awesome rush like pharms or H or anything, but it does have a nice mood lift and some hydro-ish feeling to it. And IMO it's far less bad for you than drinking. I should know, I'm an alcoholic, and in my worst days before I quit drinking I was at about 20+ drinks a day, all in the afternoon/evening/night. Let us know if you have more questions about kratom.

Peace,
pnm

podsnomo
11-06-2012, 18:07
pnm,

I really, really appreciate you taking the time to respond to my, and everyone else's comments. It has helped me a lot, and I'm glad to know I have your support and also that you're going through something very similar to me.

With that being said, I unfortunately also have to say that today has probably been the worst day so far. Again, it's the depression and anxiety that have been unbearable. I also just realized that it is only the 6th day since I have significantly reduced my daily doses (probably by too much). This is both comforting and worrying for me. It worries me because, well fuck, it’s only day 6. It feels like it has been forever, and I was hoping that the symptoms would be lessening. On the other hand, the majority of kratom withdrawal stories I’ve read have said that days 7-14 can actually be the worst. This makes sense to me because it's been almost a week since I dropped from using 10-20g (of powder) a day down to 4g, and am now at 3g. I think I might hover around this level for a while because I think I have a few days of shit coming up. Hopefully by mid-end of this week I'll be feeling okay again and ready to decrease my dosage.

Good luck pnm, slayer, beatit and andy with your tapering/kicking (and anyone else too) and I'll be checking back here frequently! By the way, if anyone has found out some strategies for dealing with the withdrawal please share. I've found valerian root and camomile help for sleeping, and exercise (lifting weights for me) makes me feel better for a few hours afterwards.

The good news is that if today is the worst day so far, it is likely to be the worst day of all, meaning it will continue to get better. I think you're right on with staying at that dose until it evens out a bit. Have you tried splitting it into 2 doses. Like instead of 3 grams a day, 4g/day in 2 doses of 2, then taper from there. I ask b/c the effects of kratom are short lived.

Anyway, I did what you did with the pods, during my taper on one of my drops I totally overdid it, but it got better after a few days, and looking back I am glad I did that. It seemed to make the rest of the steadier taper easier, and then jumping to no pods and kratom for staving symptoms was not as bad as I though it would be. The thing to remember, as hard as it is sometimes, that this shitty feeling is TEMPORARY. It will get better, little by little. You are fighting the good fight, and you are worth it.

Try this, take a sheet of paper and write on it in huge letters something like this, "You are a wonderful person. You are doing something extraordinary. You are worth it. Keep calm, keep going, keep fighting." Place it somewhere you will see it often.

The fact that you are working out is effing HUGE. Part of kratom WD and opiate WD is the fatigue oddly mixed with anxiety and depression. Weghtlifting is great for reducing that anxiety, lifting good energy, helping you sleep, and getting your brain to squirt out some more endorphins, which it got used to doing less of while you were using the kratom more heavily.

I'm going to join a gym, but for now, when I get squirmy anxiety feeling welling up, I just drop and do as many push ups as I can. When it comes back, I do it again. I'm going to add cardio soon, and I think you might be at the point that this would be a good idea too. Weights are great, but for anxiety and sleeping better, adding 15-20 minutes of cardio to that workout will help tons. Also, you should be eating healthy, taking vitamins, magnesium and potassium esp, or get the potassium from a a banana or three a day. You should be masturbating or having sex at every opportunity too to help with the brain making more of its own good stuff again.

Behavioral things help too. Do something creative. Anything. Write a poem, even a lousy one. Who the fuck cares if it's good or not. You will have created something. No one ever needs to read it. Go outside, take pictures of nature or whatever interests you, esp if you have a decent camera. Watch something that makes you laugh. I used to think Jackass was retarded but I watched #2 and laughed, and it helped. When in the worst funk, forcing yourself to do some housework is great. Do a load of laundry, clean your kitchen, if you can keep going and clean it all, or break it up over days. A clean living space helps engender a clean mental space.

Major props to you on continuing your path to freedom. I'm with you all the way.

Peace, love, and applause,
pnm

podsnomo
12-06-2012, 05:04
Beat It?!?! Where'd you go man? You OK? Damn greenlighter status. I'd PM you if I could. I hope you're well, but if you're doing shitty, don't be ashamed to come in here and tell us about it. We're here for you.

stardust.hero
12-06-2012, 06:40
^You reach BLer status when you hit 50 posts. You're there in 14 posts. Just FYI :).

Repin
12-06-2012, 09:59
Yeah I know. I just took a "vacation" to quit. i.e. going to Maine and using like a teaspoon after ten o'clock at night. At one point my addiction was close two hundred dollars a WEEK (damn tincture) but recently it has been easier, cuz honestly I've weaned off over the last six months. Was still using daily, just a lot less maybe a half ounce - to an ounce throughout the day. Maine was to kick it totally.
I can honestly say that after having decreased my dosage it was easier. I'd gone without during the two hundred dollar a week phase, and it was AWFUL. Shit's serious...
I'll tell you the big problem for me i can see is that i'm a lot more anti-social without it throughout the day (i'm still taking a tiny amount at night, cuz for me it's hardest then, but hope to get off that too). I don't want to talk to girls, go out; i just want to watch tv and rest. The physical w/d's are gone, it's all mental now -and, yeah, i miss my old motivation. I just wish I'd never started the shit bc all you think is "Gee, maybe K was good for me. Maybe I sort of needed it medicinally..." But I know that can't be true. I'd get so weird on it sometimes, sensitive, and objectively I can see it was ruining my life (i'd been taking it for six years). So it has to go....Hope you're doing better. I can't tell when you posted cuz the dates seem screwy.

podsnomo
12-06-2012, 13:36
Thanks. I already knew that. It's just that I don't post unless I feel I have something worthwhile to say, which just isn't as often as I'd like.

podsnomo
12-06-2012, 14:02
Yeah I know. I just took a "vacation" to quit. i.e. going to Maine and using like a teaspoon after ten o'clock at night. At one point my addiction was close two hundred dollars a WEEK (damn tincture) but recently it has been easier, cuz honestly I've weaned off over the last six months. Was still using daily, just a lot less maybe a half ounce - to an ounce throughout the day. Maine was to kick it totally.
I can honestly say that after having decreased my dosage it was easier. I'd gone without during the two hundred dollar a week phase, and it was AWFUL. Shit's serious...
I'll tell you the big problem for me i can see is that i'm a lot more anti-social without it throughout the day (i'm still taking a tiny amount at night, cuz for me it's hardest then, but hope to get off that too). I don't want to talk to girls, go out; i just want to watch tv and rest. The physical w/d's are gone, it's all mental now -and, yeah, i miss my old motivation. I just wish I'd never started the shit bc all you think is "Gee, maybe K was good for me. Maybe I sort of needed it medicinally..." But I know that can't be true. I'd get so weird on it sometimes, sensitive, and objectively I can see it was ruining my life (i'd been taking it for six years). So it has to go....Hope you're doing better. I can't tell when you posted cuz the dates seem screwy.

Hi Repin and welcome! You're newer than me! It sucks that you're having to deal with what you're dealing with. For all the doubters out there who think kratom is no big deal... here's another one. Glad to have you here though.

Are you doing the kinds of things that opiate withdrawers do? Loperamide for the shits is a must, unless those are gone now. Sounds like you might be in the psychological phase, which people call PAWS, but I think it's better to just call it the psychological phase. Having a name and thus a colllection of symptoms with it makes it seem harder to get through. If you read to much about PAWS, IME, you get more of the symptoms.

So, are you doing things like taking dietary supplements, magnesium and potassium esp? You can get the potassium from a couple bananas a day. Exercising? That's a must for energy and getting your brain to start to return to normal. Hobby? Just do SOMEthing.

The bad news is that this phase can last up to six months. The good news is that each passing day is better than the day before, on average, and each passing week will be noticeably better until one day you're all good. Poof. I hope this isn't discouraging. You for sure got it right about needing to quit. Just remember each day will get better, and you can speed that up by doing some of those things, and other stuff too. And then one day you'll realize you're feeling better, sleeping well, good energy, enjoying life, and all without a substance clinging to you. That day WILL come. This shit is temporary.

I'm probably going to need someone to tell me that same stuff and more soon. I got onto to kratom after tapering and kicking a big pod habit. Now I'm tapering the kratom. I'm down to 3-4 grams twice a day. It's progress. 4 grams of kratom wouldn't have even been noticeable a couple months ago. Now it keeps me ok and gives some pep. But I don't wanna be on it long. Esp not 6 years. JeebusChreebus! How'd you do that repin? 200 bucks a week on kratom is more than I've heard of. Mad props for getting down to the dose you're on now. It'll get better. It will.

Oh, and they use the European date system, so, DD/MM/YYYY instead of MM/DD/YYYY like in the states.

Let me know if I can help you in any way.

Peace and kindness,
pnm

silentcowboy
12-06-2012, 15:56
Yeah I know. I just took a "vacation" to quit. i.e. going to Maine and using like a teaspoon after ten o'clock at night. At one point my addiction was close two hundred dollars a WEEK (damn tincture) but recently it has been easier, cuz honestly I've weaned off over the last six months. Was still using daily, just a lot less maybe a half ounce - to an ounce throughout the day. Maine was to kick it totally.
I can honestly say that after having decreased my dosage it was easier. I'd gone without during the two hundred dollar a week phase, and it was AWFUL. Shit's serious...
I'll tell you the big problem for me i can see is that i'm a lot more anti-social without it throughout the day (i'm still taking a tiny amount at night, cuz for me it's hardest then, but hope to get off that too). I don't want to talk to girls, go out; i just want to watch tv and rest. The physical w/d's are gone, it's all mental now -and, yeah, i miss my old motivation. I just wish I'd never started the shit bc all you think is "Gee, maybe K was good for me. Maybe I sort of needed it medicinally..." But I know that can't be true. I'd get so weird on it sometimes, sensitive, and objectively I can see it was ruining my life (i'd been taking it for six years). So it has to go....Hope you're doing better. I can't tell when you posted cuz the dates seem screwy.

Mad props for the taper! Can you give me some tips? im trying to taper my habit to cost me less, i dont plan on stopping but some days i just feel like gettin buzzed and it throws that day out the window. any tips for tapering would be appreciated

Beat It
13-06-2012, 16:28
Hey guys, sorry about disappearing for a few days. I've kinda been veg'd out smoking da ganj. -_- Totally immersed in it. Haha I know it's probably not the most productive thing to do but, the good news is, I haven't taken any more Kratom. (day 19) Update on my medication treatment, I've got off of my loperamide doses (feel fine, maybe just went through a day of some unpleasant side effects of not taking any) and last night was my first night without any ambien for sleep. I'm a little worried about coming off of Ambien after about 3 months of using it every night but it's been more than 24 hours and I feel better than when I was on the stuff. It hasn't been too bad for the last week either. I think the secondary psychological phase was what was really getting to me.

I think the most critical part of getting back to normal after I got through the physical withdrawals has been running/exercise, eating, COFFEE and just staying busy. When I run, I run constantly for around 45 mins and really get my endorphins going. With eating, you can go the healthy route if you want, probably helps, but I just think it helps to really eat ANYTHING. A lot of my withdrawal symptoms worsened the longer I didn't eat. Coffee/Cigs just to wake you up and boost your energy. Lastly, staying busy has been really important after I got past the first couple of weeks of wanting to do absolutely nothing. Your gonna feel shitty where ever you go, doesn't mean you can't get outside and get some sun/ go to school and meet people. You'll feel better after doing stuff anyways. Also, give yourself a break on the weekends, drink some beers, go see some live music, do something you remember enjoying when you were sober. Just remember the shitty feelings you have aren't rational, their the result of taking a drug.

I applaud all of you who are trying to taper and get sober. I know Kratom is glorified as being the cure all for addictions but out of all the drugs I've tried, Kratom has been the hardest to quit. Probably because I've glorified it, and rationalized to myself, "oh well it's not as bad as alcohol, or I know I'm spending 80 bucks a week but at least it's not as expensive as coke, or at least it's not as addictive as heroin." All bullshit. I'm sure most of you know the routine. If I recognized it as a drug just like all the other's I would have never got addicted to it. Plus the short-term effects are great but the long term effects to Kratom can be brutal just like all drugs. (Hallucinations, physical dependence, mental dependence, plus there's not any study on how it effects the liver that I know of) My point isn't to bash on Kratom because I know if I used it responsibly and not regularly I would have been fine like most people. It was just the addict in me taking disguise and posing as something harmless. I think Kratom is great for quitting other substances but it has to be used responsibly. (Couple days a week, not everyday)

Beat It
13-06-2012, 17:00
Yup that's a true story, when I stopped drinking I starting taking Kratom regularly and told everyone/ including myself, I was sober for some 40 days. I mean, it's really not like getting fucked up, pissing yourself, having sex with someone you just met or the other countless stupid shit you do when your really messed up but lets see. It's a lot easier to get addicted to something you see as harmless, it is a expensive habit, and you look like a total weirdo consuming some mysterious leaf in a bag. Funny fact, my life really was getting better when I started using Kratom, until I got to about steps 3 and 4. Then the high level of motivation started to disappear and the "just get fucked up" part starting to set in... sigh.

Really want to start going to NA or something like that, because even this site has been helpful. Hearing other people's story and hearing about people getting better is really motivational.

Cold Turkey
13-06-2012, 18:57
Kratom sucks. If you have never touched it, don't ever do it. It's every bit as addictive as any other opiate based pain medication. Sure the WD may not be as dramatic as opiates, but WD symptoms are definitely not to be taken lightly and they are sever enough to make you want to drain your bank account. It took 2 years for me to quit. It's been 5 days now, after going cold turkey. I am tempted to go get some now, but I don't dare reignite the addiction. All I have to say, is good luck to anyone who is struggling with this seemingly innocent but totally evil and addictive crap! They should call it Crapom. Because that's what it is pure crap. It has no redeeming qualities. It's sold as a legal high. It's a designer drug, and it's illegal in Thailand for good reason. Just don't ever do it. Not even once. You might wake up 2 years later, broke without enough money to eat or buy gas to get to work.

silentcowboy
13-06-2012, 21:37
Kratom sucks. If you have never touched it, don't ever do it. It's every bit as addictive as any other opiate based pain medication. Sure the WD may not be as dramatic as opiates, but WD symptoms are definitely not to be taken lightly and they are sever enough to make you want to drain your bank account. It took 2 years for me to quit. It's been 5 days now, after going cold turkey. I am tempted to go get some now, but I don't dare reignite the addiction. All I have to say, is good luck to anyone who is struggling with this seemingly innocent but totally evil and addictive crap! They should call it Crapom. Because that's what it is pure crap. It has no redeeming qualities. It's sold as a legal high. It's a designer drug, and it's illegal in Thailand for good reason. Just don't ever do it. Not even once. You might wake up 2 years later, broke without enough money to eat or buy gas to get to work.

Just because its fucked up your life doesnt mean its total garbage. people die and ruin their lives with alcohol and cigarettes(a "legal high"), doctor prescribed meds like SSRI's have much longer W/D and i found the WD from paxil atleast twice as hard as a taper and detox off of OC. Benzos are more addictive and has a chance of killing you if you drop too quickly. Idc what you say about kratom, it saved my life from an oxy addiction <removed abusive comment - Vaya> i know its got down sides, which everything does. Idk what your deal is but id rather be depe ndent on kratom then any other substance (besides MJ). Your very uneducated about the plant. its not a designer drug, the powder is make from the actual leaves, and the reason its illegal in thailand is because it was effecting the opium trade. do your homework.
Ive been taking it for 2 years and im at ~15g a day, im trying to taper down to save money, i realize how i am psychologically and physically dependent on it, but to compared to almost every other drug - its the least of the evils. kratom does not give me mood swings like opiates do, I can make a bag last for a long time if i have too, its forgiving in this way. <Content removed - Please refrain from discussing dosing methods and positive effects of drugs in this forum - it tends to make the drug-taking more appealing, especially for those seeking total abstinence - Vaya> I can get by with probably 6-8g a day and feel fine. Keep in mind, ive been doing this daily (at a lower dose in the beginning) for 2 years, and ofcourse my tolerance and intake has increased, and im tapering. sorry for the long post but this plant means a lot to me, just like MJ means a lot to other people.

slayerhatesusall
14-06-2012, 01:05
Even if you don't take kratom every day you can still get slight w/ds from it after awhile, took about 4 weeks of me using it every 3 days to get some slightly annoying w/ds that last around 5 days. Nothing serious though but still annoying.
And how are you guys spending $80+ a week on kratom? You must be using extracts, when I was using it on a daily basis it never cost me more then $40 a month even when I was using a little less then half a pound of it per month once I had built a good tolerance up to it. I never used extracts except for free samples I got due to the insane price compared to the ground up leaf, they seem like a huge ripoff pricewise.

podsnomo
14-06-2012, 04:37
Hey guys, sorry about disappearing for a few days. I've kinda been veg'd out smoking da ganj. -_- Totally immersed in it. Haha I know it's probably not the most productive thing to do but, the good news is, I haven't taken any more Kratom. (day 19) Update on my medication treatment, I've got off of my loperamide doses (feel fine, maybe just went through a day of some unpleasant side effects of not taking any) and last night was my first night without any ambien for sleep. I'm a little worried about coming off of Ambien after about 3 months of using it every night but it's been more than 24 hours and I feel better than when I was on the stuff. It hasn't been too bad for the last week either. I think the secondary psychological phase was what was really getting to me.

I think the most critical part of getting back to normal after I got through the physical withdrawals has been running/exercise, eating, COFFEE and just staying busy. When I run, I run constantly for around 45 mins and really get my endorphins going. With eating, you can go the healthy route if you want, probably helps, but I just think it helps to really eat ANYTHING. A lot of my withdrawal symptoms worsened the longer I didn't eat. Coffee/Cigs just to wake you up and boost your energy. Lastly, staying busy has been really important after I got past the first couple of weeks of wanting to do absolutely nothing. Your gonna feel shitty where ever you go, doesn't mean you can't get outside and get some sun/ go to school and meet people. You'll feel better after doing stuff anyways. Also, give yourself a break on the weekends, drink some beers, go see some live music, do something you remember enjoying when you were sober. Just remember the shitty feelings you have aren't rational, their the result of taking a drug.

I applaud all of you who are trying to taper and get sober. I know Kratom is glorified as being the cure all for addictions but out of all the drugs I've tried, Kratom has been the hardest to quit. Probably because I've glorified it, and rationalized to myself, "oh well it's not as bad as alcohol, or I know I'm spending 80 bucks a week but at least it's not as expensive as coke, or at least it's not as addictive as heroin." All bullshit. I'm sure most of you know the routine. If I recognized it as a drug just like all the other's I would have never got addicted to it. Plus the short-term effects are great but the long term effects to Kratom can be brutal just like all drugs. (Hallucinations, physical dependence, mental dependence, plus there's not any study on how it effects the liver that I know of) My point isn't to bash on Kratom because I know if I used it responsibly and not regularly I would have been fine like most people. It was just the addict in me taking disguise and posing as something harmless. I think Kratom is great for quitting other substances but it has to be used responsibly. (Couple days a week, not everyday)

SO glad to hear back from you and to hear that you're doing much better man. You sound great and your advice about the taper-helpers is spot-on. If I were healthy enough to run for 45 minute straight I would. For anybody else, like me, just whatever exercise you can do is great. Just try to get to that edge where you're pushing yourself, but not so heard you throw-up or whatever. Thanks for coming back BeatIt! Looks like you're gonna beat it after all. Lookin back on those tough times up til now (I know it's not perfect yet), but it feels worth it, doesn't it.

Keep on,
pnm

podsnomo
14-06-2012, 04:39
Even if you don't take kratom every day you can still get slight w/ds from it after awhile, took about 4 weeks of me using it every 3 days to get some slightly annoying w/ds that last around 5 days. Nothing serious though but still annoying.
And how are you guys spending $80+ a week on kratom? You must be using extracts, when I was using it on a daily basis it never cost me more then $40 a month even when I was using a little less then half a pound of it per month once I had built a good tolerance up to it. I never used extracts except for free samples I got due to the insane price compared to the ground up leaf, they seem like a huge ripoff pricewise.

I agree completely about the ripoff of extracts. But for some it seems the powder quits working, and as tolerance builds faster in some people, and some people come to it with a higher tolerance for drugs in general, extracts become needed for some to keep their buzzes where they want them... Just IMO.

podsnomo
14-06-2012, 04:43
Kratom sucks. If you have never touched it, don't ever do it. It's every bit as addictive as any other opiate based pain medication. Sure the WD may not be as dramatic as opiates, but WD symptoms are definitely not to be taken lightly and they are sever enough to make you want to drain your bank account. It took 2 years for me to quit. It's been 5 days now, after going cold turkey. I am tempted to go get some now, but I don't dare reignite the addiction. All I have to say, is good luck to anyone who is struggling with this seemingly innocent but totally evil and addictive crap! They should call it Crapom. Because that's what it is pure crap. It has no redeeming qualities. It's sold as a legal high. It's a designer drug, and it's illegal in Thailand for good reason. Just don't ever do it. Not even once. You might wake up 2 years later, broke without enough money to eat or buy gas to get to work.

You're in a bad spot with this right now CT, and I can see how you're bitter about it. I was and am bitter about substances that fucked up my life, but Kratom has helped some who use it responsibly to get off of more harmful substances, and some are able to enjoy here and there no problem. Just like some people can drink beer, no problem, while people like me cannot, because I'm alcoholic, and 1 drink makes me crave 20 more...not like normal people.

As for silent cowboy's insensitive and mean response to you. Don't listen to him. I'm about to tell him what's up.

podsnomo
14-06-2012, 04:57
Originally Posted by Cold Turkey
Kratom sucks. If you have never touched it, don't ever do it. It's every bit as addictive as any other opiate based pain medication. Sure the WD may not be as dramatic as opiates, but WD symptoms are definitely not to be taken lightly and they are sever enough to make you want to drain your bank account. It took 2 years for me to quit. It's been 5 days now, after going cold turkey. I am tempted to go get some now, but I don't dare reignite the addiction. All I have to say, is good luck to anyone who is struggling with this seemingly innocent but totally evil and addictive crap! They should call it Crapom. Because that's what it is pure crap. It has no redeeming qualities. It's sold as a legal high. It's a designer drug, and it's illegal in Thailand for good reason. Just don't ever do it. Not even once. You might wake up 2 years later, broke without enough money to eat or buy gas to get to work.


Just because its fucked up your life doesnt mean its total garbage. people die and ruin their lives with alcohol and cigarettes(a "legal high"), doctor prescribed meds like SSRI's have much longer W/D and i found the WD from paxil atleast twice as hard as a taper and detox off of OC. Benzos are more addictive and has a chance of killing you if you drop too quickly. Idc what you say about kratom, it saved my life from an oxy addiction <removed abusive comment - Vaya> . i know its got down sides, which everything does. Idk what your deal is but id rather be dependent on kratom then any other substance (besides MJ). Your very uneducated about the plant. its not a designer drug, the powder is make from the actual leaves, and the reason its illegal in thailand is because it was effecting the opium trade. do your homework.
Ive been taking it for 2 years and im at ~15g a day, im trying to taper down to save money, i realize how i am psychologically and physically dependent on it, but to compared to almost every other drug - its the least of the evils. kratom does not give me mood swings like opiates do, I can make a bag last for a long time if i have too, its forgiving in this way. <Content removed - Please refrain from discussing dosing methods and positive effects of drugs in this forum - it tends to make the drug-taking more appealing, especially for those seeking total abstinence - Vaya> I can get by with probably 6-8g a day and feel fine. Keep in mind, ive been doing this daily (at a lower dose in the beginning) for 2 years, and ofcourse my tolerance and intake has increased, and im tapering. sorry for the long post but this plant means a lot to me, just like MJ means a lot to other people.

Silent cowboy, why are you being an ass? That was his first post here. He's obviously in a tough spot. Do you really expect him to "do his homework" and know what the more experienced people here know. Just because you've been around a while and know more than someone else does and disagree with them does not give you the right to talk down to them, call them shitty names, and insult them.

Did you start your addiction at the age of three dude? 'cause that's right about the emotional maturity you're displaying in this thread.

GOOD, so kratom saved your life from an oxy habit. I'm glad it did, but does that mean CT needs to "screw off".

Whoever CT is, he/she comes in here and in response to their first post you treat them like total shit. You should be ashamed of yourself and you owe them an apology. I'll be checking the rules on here, and if I can find a reason to flag your asinine post to the mods I'll do just that. Unless of course, you proffer that apology you owe CT. Fucking pronto.

So yeah, it's cool that this plant means a lot to you, but don't be beatin' up on somebody who's prolly just ranting cause they're pissed that the kratom fucked up their life. You don't know what you're words could have done to CT. Maybe he doesn't give shit, and he shouldn't. But you mighta made him feel like shit. And on his FIRST post. Do YOUR homework, and stop treating people like an ass in this thread or I'll be all over you.

Peace, for goodness sake, peace,
pnm

silentcowboy
14-06-2012, 05:39
I know my attitude wasnt right, and i am sorry. I was offended by his post but should have taken into consideration it was his first.
Sorry CT for the shitty reply, im not like that normally, and neither are most people here on bluelight

podsnomo
14-06-2012, 05:52
Thanks man. I hope Cold Turkey reads this.

On another note: I just reached 50 posts, but I still have a tiny message box and can't PM people.


I know my attitude wasnt right, and i am sorry. I was offended by his post but should have taken into consideration it was his first.
Sorry CT for the shitty reply, im not like that normally, and neither are most people here on bluelight

silentcowboy
14-06-2012, 05:59
I think it might take overnight, Im pretty sure mine did

podsnomo
14-06-2012, 06:18
I think it might take overnight, Im pretty sure mine did

Just read that in the "about my account" section, but thanks for the info anyway. I'm still figuring all this out. I like it here. The people are cool, including you man. I read some of your other posts, and you're right, that post wasn't like you. And I forgot it was you who PMed me some help. Thanks again for that. I'd PM you back about something right now, but until this switches me to bluelighter, I'll have to wait another 180 minutes, at which point I hope to be snoozing.

peacefulness,
pnm

Kosmos7
14-06-2012, 16:53
Hey guys. Another kratom-fighter here. I'm currently on day 5 of cutting it 'cold turkey' and it's pretty awful but I think I'm starting to turn a corner with some of the withdrawal symptoms (the physical ones, at least). It's a bit encouraging, but I know I'm only at the start of a long battle to true sobriety.

Firstly, I'd just like to say that this is a great thread with some great words and advice. Kudos to those of you who are on the right path and fighting that fight. Especially pods; your positivity is great.

My (familiar) story: ordered an ounce of kratom last September after hearing all the nice things about it, and I've always been one to experiment with substances. I've enjoyed the occasional roxy/oxy, but never had a habit with them, mostly because they are way too expensive, but also because I knew and heard of tons of people in my town who had serious problems with the stuff. That and I just never really had a problem with addiction. I smoked weed on and off but never found it to be difficult to quit. Never been a big drinker. This is where the kratom is sneaky and charming, though. It's legal, relatively cheap (compared to pharm opiates), 'natural,' and generally has a pretty decent reputation. And I of course could never get addicted to anything; I was beyond that, I thought. So my guard was down.

The other element that led to my abuse of the stuff is that I suffer from depression and anxiety, which seems to be a common thread between all of us who have found ourselves in a bad relationship with this plant. Alcohol never made me feel better like it does for some people; after a few months of regular weed-smoking I would just get really bored with it and stop without any serious issues, and it didn't help me otherwise.

Kratom though, seemed to give me strength. It just made me feel good, with extra motivation and desire for socialization. It kind of seemed to cure me of my depression/anxiety. From early on though, I wasn't really so naive as to think this plant was the answer. To be honest, I was pretty self-aware that I was abusing the plant from pretty early on (after I got a feel for it). I hoped/expected it would give me the strength to improve my life in various ways. Ultimately it might have improved my performance at work, but other than that it didn't really affect my life in a positive way, aside from just making me feel nice. Artificial internal well-being. Completely selfish, and lazy, in a way. Instead of working hard to build a quality, healthy life, I skipped the hard stuff and just ate some plant powder to give me some instant satisfaction. You all know the drill, there.

Anyway, after a month or two I was having a 10g or so dose every night after work, pretty much without missing a dose. Only when I was late on ordering more did I miss one, and after making that mistake a couple times I learned to be well-stocked so as to not have to go through that rough 24-48 hours. Maybe 5 months in I went to doing 2 smaller (maybe 5-7g) doses per day, one to start my day and one to end it. At some point around then I got into the habit of taking a moderate dose before work, which became pretty necessary as working with the short-term withdrawals or comedown effects was pretty unpleasant, and working while on a fresh dose was much more pleasant and effective.

It was like 3 months ago that I decided to start cutting down. I began to only take enough to make me feel normal/functional, instead of an amount that would be more like a high. Of course, I started to experience more and more unpleasant hours in my day, and I got to a point where I felt like I needed 3 small doses per day instead of two. One to start my day (which is usually my work dose), one after work (so I could actually enjoy the rest of my day/night and be somewhat productive), and one slightly smaller one later in the night to get me a decent night's rest. It was around this time that I started to really hate this substance; or moreso, hate that I felt enslaved to it. Hated being miserable and useless without it. Hated knowing that I wouldn't be able to be a good friend, a good son, etc. without eating this horrible-tasting plant three times a day. Once again, if you are reading this you know the feeling. I basically got to a point where I decided, fuck this. No more. If I'm eating this awful-tasting stuff three times a day just to feel normal, then what's the point? Why spend the money to eat this nasty powdered plant that makes me feel 'decent' for an hour or two.

It's crazy how you get sucked into it. I pretty much knew it was bad news for me from very early on, but didn't do anything about it until the negatives overwhelmed and upset me. I used it to fill a void, and it ended up creating a bigger void. Now I have stopped using it and all there is is one very large void.

I have cheated a bit, though, since quitting. I got some percocet from a friend and have used 7.5mg doses of it before work to allow me to function. I know this will only slow the process, but I can't afford to take time off work, and being at work is a hell of a lot better than laying in bed at home, tossing and turning with complete physical and mental discomfort. I find that being active helps. I suppose it distracts from the negative aspects. It's sort of like going to work sick; you kind of forget that you're sick because you are so busy. I also happen to be a month into opening a new restaurant. I'm a server, and there's no way I could handle running around, taking care of 6 different tables, timing out a dozen different meals, composing myself and being pleasant to customers and co-workers, etc. if I were going through the pure withdrawals.

So my plan, sort of, is to use the percocet for work and when I have other engagements that require a certain level of focus/composure etc. for the first five days. No kratom, but 15mg of percocet a day instead. Today will be the last of the percocet, and I definitely won't be getting anymore because that shit is expensive and obviously I don't want to develop another bad habit. Even with the small percocet doses, that only buys me about 2 hours of feeling pretty good, another 2 hours of feeling 'ok', and then the withdrawal symptoms quickly creep back in and it's back to the bottom.

I also happened to buy some etizolam a couple weeks ago, and so I've been taking those to help me sleep (though they are so short-acting that I sometimes have to get up and take more to get back to sleep). Also been taking smaller doses here and there during the day to ease my mind a bit, though it's far from a complete cure of the psychological symptoms. I also find that weed can either help or make things worse. I'm careful about when I have a smoke, because sometimes it'll just make me really sleepy in a bad kind of way, so I have to lie down, and up with a couple hours of really bad sleep that I wake up feeling horrible from.

I feel like there's more I should elaborate on as far as my recent recovery regiment, but I need a break from blabbing my boring story. Just wanted to join the club, I guess. Don't really have anyone IRL I can go to; I was glad to find this thread.

Kosmos7
14-06-2012, 16:55
haha I can't believe how large that wall of text is. I would condense it but I don't really have the time, so... sorry, haha.

I actually have some questions and such, more about fighting the withdrawals, I'd like to bring up but I'll have to do that later.

podsnomo
14-06-2012, 18:18
haha I can't believe how large that wall of text is. I would condense it but I don't really have the time, so... sorry, haha.

I actually have some questions and such, more about fighting the withdrawals, I'd like to bring up but I'll have to do that later.

Welcome K7! Your post wasn't boring man. It was a good read, honest, and yes, familiar. It's good for everyone here to know they're not alone. As was mentioned here a time or two, I think most people do OK with not getting sucked into Kratom, but man, some of us sure the hell do.

I'm kinda confused why percocets? That kind of stuff, IME, has tougher withdrawals that come on faster, hit harder when they do, and then last longer. It sounds like you're bouncing around with your dosing plans, or should I say lack of plan? So, are you going with no more kratom, quitting the percocet, and using the etizolam for sleep? I'd never heard of etizolam, but read about it just now. It's pretty short acting. Do you have access to a doctor? Maybe you should try ambien or temazepam? Both are hypnotic benzos that last for a good night's sleep, preventing that need to take more in the middle of the night.

As far as fighting WDs and getting through the psychological phase after, much has been said in this thread regarding that. Read through a bit more if you get a chance and feel free to ask me any questions. Also feel free to PM me if you want to discuss anything real personal. Better to keep most of it here though as it helps others.

So, it sounds like your habit is less than a year old. That's a good thing, a young habit. The longer the habit the tougher the road. Your road will be tough anyway. They all are. My suggestion would be to do some more evaluation and personal reflection. See where your habit is now. If you can, try not to jump around between substances. If kratom was your DOC then perhaps you should taper down from that? I don't know you though, and damn sure don't know it all. You might do well to use the percs to get through. I'm not sure how you'll be able to taper those though.

The other option besides tapering is CT. Seems that's not an option for you, and I don't recommend it personally. For some though, it is the only way. I had a hard time controlling myself during my pod taper, and now that I'm stabilized on kratom, I'm having a hard time not getting recreational with it... Just trying to use it to taper down to no more opiates or opiate like substances.

So, post your questions about fighting WDs and we'll see how we can help, RIGHT GUYS? 8(
Besides fighting WDs, you can do things to lessen them.
And this should be done with an eye on making the post-physical, that is, the psychological phase afterward less difficult.
It gets talked about like it's 2 different things, the physical WDs and then the PAWS (the psychological phase).
But really one bleeds into the next, though they are different.
I'm rambling!
My point is that one should start doing things during and towards the end of the physical withdrawal that will transition into the part after, making all of it much easier.

Let us know how you are doing, and ask away. The only stupid question is the one you don't ask.

All best,
Podsnomo

podsnomo
15-06-2012, 05:02
Here's another story I'm pasting from another site. Name omitted.

Again, for those thinking Kratom is a joke... read this:

"Long story short, I've been on and off various opiates/opiods since about 2003. I got RX'd Tramadol for some chronic back pain I was having - and still have a bit of, but it's completely manageable with exercise - and got hooked. Managed to get off that and didn't use anything for about 3-4 years. Then I messed up my ribs and got a script for Percocet, and I was off and running. I was in school at the time, plus working almost full time, and I guess I was trying to medicate the insane amount of stress I was under. My days began at 6-8 AM and ended at 1-3 AM, lather, rinse, repeat. I gave up EVERYTHING for my education, because I knew it was the only thing going to better me in life, and I didn't want to end up where my family had ended up, because none of them ever went to school. But I lost 25 pounds because I never had time to eat, most of the week I was either a mess of rage or near tears because I never had even ONE free minute for myself, there was always more things to do than hours in the day but yet everything HAD to get done, and the percs gave me energy and mellowed me out.

Looking back it was a dumb thing to do, but you all know how it is. Nobody ever wakes up one morning and goes "Hey, I have a great idea! Let's become and addict! That'll solve ALL our problems!"

From that time to this, I'd kicked and relapsed a few times. I never had a huge habit by most people's standards, and I knew I could deal with the 3 days of WDs if I had a long weekend. So, whenever my tolerance started getting too high, or I didn't have the money, it wasn't the hardest thing on earth to kick.

Then I got the job I have now, which pays pretty well, and I met a buddy there who had a buddy who had a script, plus he knew a few other people, so a virtually endless supply of pills came my way. I also discovered poppy seed tea, which, if you have a steady supply of "dirty" seeds, which I did, is a a very REAL opiate.

My habit got pretty heavy. It never, ever, interfered with my being at work or how I did my job, I have too much a sense of responsibility for that I guess. But I got to a point where I was sick of pissing that much money away for basically nothing.

Somehow, I don't remember how, I discovered kratom. Cheap, 100% legal in the US (where I am), and it worked to keep the WDs away. It also helped with my back pain, when it flares up.

You can guess where this is going. Now I'm hooked on the fucking kratom. And for the life of me, I *cannot* kick this shit. I can handle WDs. But it's like they never stop coming off kratom. By the end of 3 days, I'm just as sick as I was on Day 1, by the end of 5 days, I'm just as sick as on Day 3, by the end of 10 days, I'm almost but not quite as sick as I was on Day 5.

I don't know what the fuck to do. I've tapered - I actually have pretty good willpower and the ability to moderate when I really want to kick, but it doesn't seem to help at all. I was down to 1/2 teaspoon at 12 hour intervals at one point, then jumped from there, and I was STILL just as fucking sick as if I'd jumped from my "usual" dose. I don't HAVE 10+ days to be sick. I'm a manager where I work, and I need to function. If it was 3 to even 5 days, I could suck it up. But feeling weak, dizzy, sweaty, cold, nauseous, heartburn, the shits, not sleeping, body aches, and all the other fun stuff you get takes such a toll on my by that time, I can't take it anymore and go back to using.

My buddy kicked, so I don't want to ask him to hook me up anymore. That's not cool. I know he makes his own choices just like I do, but I'm not sure I could have OPs, OCs, or percs on hand for someone else and not indulge. I'm not going to put him in that spot. I can get tramadol online just like anyone else can, so I was thinking maybe going onto that and then tapering off tramadol might help. Only thing is, tramadol seemed to be more addictive faster than any other pharm I've had. I know kratom alkaloids are related to yohimbine, would taking that maybe mitigate the WD from kratom? I need to get off this shit, I don't like not having any control over it what so ever, to the point where I can't kick even if I'm determined to do so.

Getting into a treatment program isn't an option for me, because I don't think any suboxone docs or 'done clinics around here even know about kratom, and I do have legit pain that needs medical help now and then. If I go into treatment, I'll never get any kind of effective pain relief ever again.

I'd really appreciate any help or suggestions anyone can offer, and please don't tell me to man up, that it's "just" kratom. I know my way around opiates, and this isn't "just" anything. This is serious, real shit I'm going through."

that's all he said.
peace,
pnm

Kosmos7
15-06-2012, 10:15
The percocet was a short-term thing. I actually used the last of em tonight for work. My idea was that I'd stop the kratom, take a light perc dose every now and then, as needed, to function, and hopefully get through some of the worst/early part of the kratom withdrawal in the mean time.

So I'm off work until saturday morning, when I've got a double that'll last 10 hours or so. And another one sunday. Depending on how I feel, I might have to go back to the kratom to get through those days. Like, a small dose to get me moving. Obviously, I'd rather not have to do that, but at least I will have gone about a week without it.

I'm just not really sure if I can get completely off it without taking at least a week off work to try and sort myself out. I'm really hoping that I'll feel decent enough this weekend to not feel the need to turn back to it, but realistically it doesn't seem likely. Either way, it will be difficult; the question is exactly how difficult. I've worked a double without any kratom the whole day and it sucked but I got through it. But it's kind of easier to do it when it's just one day and you know you'll have some tomorrow, or there's some waiting for you at home that got delivered while you were at work. Knowing that there's a 'light' at the end of the tunnel helps.

But now I've got two of these shifts in a row where I need to wake up much earlier than I'm used to, and it's just fuckin daunting. And if I get through it, I'll be 'treated' to a day off monday where I'll probably do nothing but feel like shit all day.

Another common kratom addiction story I've seen is where the person tries to kick it, finds that it just fucks their life up too bad for too long without the stuff, then they end up back on it and say "Well, I guess this is just how it will be for a while." In a way, it makes a lot of sense. Choosing between going through hell for an unknown duration of time, likely weeks if not months, or eating a gross plant a couple times a day to stay regular. It's really a dilemna, because both options have major drawbacks. Do you go through months of feeling awful to hopefully find peace at some point, or keep riding that wave. On the kratom, you can at least control when you will feel good or not.

I think there can be great difficulty depending on your life circumstances. A lot of people start using kratom because they are depressed, feel worthless, unconfident, anxiety issues, etc. They find the cure. So after you have learned to depend on that cure, taking it away just leaves a very large hole. They likely had poor coping mechanisms to begin with, and found life to be harsh and difficult before the kratom. So AFTER the kratom, you're back to where you were, except you've got a whole new set of problems to deal with, and your ability to cope with the difficulties of life are even weaker than they were before. Hopefully though, you learned some things and it won't be so much like reverting; but it seems like that's more or less how it is for a lot of people.

Shit is complex. Life is rarely ever easy, and I think that's one of the lessons that a drug addiction can teach you. That you can't rely on a substance to articficially make you feel good; or at least, a lot of us can't. At the same time, it is merely adjusting some chemicals in your brain that might be the difference in giving you the energy/strength to do what you want/need to do in life. If you think about all the babies born from a night of alcohol, or all the people who rely on caffeine, it suggests that there's nothing inherently wrong with consuming a chemistry-adjusting substance every day. So of course, that means it's all just different from individual to individual.

I'm not sure who would like having to eat a foul-tasting plant multiple times a day, especially knowing what will happen to you when you STOP taking it. It's very conflicting, because that seems to strongly tell you both to stop using it as soon as possible, and to also never stop using it. Very confusing. It's cruel, really.

Kosmos7
15-06-2012, 11:05
I guess that's the thing that makes kratom so uniquely difficult to stop using versus stuff like heroin or whatever. People more often use kratom to function throughout their day; they don't use it to get fucked up. So it's incredibly difficult to quit in its own way. Not to say that quitting heroin is easier than quitting kratom, obviously. Just different.

That said, I'm seriously considering just throwing the in towel for now, and waiting for a better time to get off this stuff. Dealing with the opening of a new restaurant has been really stressful and I can't afford to take time off. I'll save up and take a week or two off when it reaches the slowest point (which will be in a month or so), and meanwhile I'll actually do a proper taper instead of just eyeballing it in a spoon, sometimes taking more than necessary out of carelessness, which surely has not helped. And I'll get some loperamide (never got around to getting any this time), sedatives/weed for the sleep, and try to get some proper exercise in as well. Right now I have a hard enough time exercising with the kratom, let alone without it, because of how busy I am.

But the idea of 'wasting' these 5 days and giving back in isn't sitting well either. I feel the need to suffer through this, like I've deserved it, like it's all coming back to me. If only I had a job that was less social-intensive, focus-requiring, etc. this might be more feasible. But going into work with a really poor mental/physical state could lead to bigger problems like serious issues with co-workers or customers. I get in stressful situations all the time where I feel on the verge to lose it and do something that would get me in trouble, but I keep it in check. As of now I'm in good standing all around, well-liked and respected, but it's taken a lot out of me just to get to and maintain that point. Feels like it takes everything.

Tell me if I'm just using dangerous rationalizations, but I feel like I might have rushed into this out of impulsive frustration and a better time and a better plan might be the right way to go. Obviously it all depends on how I feel. I haven't worked a shift without either the kratom or, more recently, the perc, in a while. If it's just one day without it's pretty bad but manageable, just because one day of feeling crappy is nothing compared to weeks or months of feeling even crappier.

podsnomo
15-06-2012, 13:23
I feel you Kosmos. I've got be on my toes too for my job. And right now I'm sitting here with the chills, waiting for the loperamide to knock them down a bit so I can take my morning 3g of kratom.

Yes, you are rationalizing, but I think you might also be right. However, I wouldn't call it dangerous rationalizing, because luckily we're talking about kratom. If it were H I'd be telling you to shut up and get into detox. With H it's life and death. With kratom it's lifemanageable and lifeholyfuckingshitthissucks(temporarily).

So, it's good you know you're rationalizing, but you still have your head screwed on straight about getting off the stuff somehow. I think this trial run at quitting taught you a lot. It was similar for me with poppy pods. I had to wait for the right time. My gf went out of town for a long weekend and I attempted a cold turkey quit. Big mistake. I made it until she got back, but then on day 5, it was still getting worse, so I caved, made some tea out of the stems I had, and ordered more pods. I then waited for my next opportunity. She was heading out of town again for a conference a couple months later. So I got enough to start a taper and worked my way down from very high doses to tiny ones, and then jumped from there and switched to kratom, the lesser of two evils... or maybe just the different of two evils. For me, it's a lesser evil anyway.

I think you've got it right. You need to be prepared and you need to have some wiggle room job-wise and life-wise. For now, try to use at a base line. Measure your doses. Keep track of them. Try not to use for a high if you can, just to get by. This will make your upcoming taper easier. Buy a "jewelry scale". (Who the fuck weighs jewelry on $20 scale?) Anyway, they work. And don't try to put the powder on the scale. Most have a "tare" function that will zero out the weight of a container. Use an empty pill bottle. Put it on, hit tare, add your kratom dose, and see how much you're taking. Then try to keep that consistent. The scale will come in handy in your taper as you can drop as little as a tenth of gram each time you drop, though you might consider lots of different dose-dropping plans. We can discuss that more later. Just order a scale for now.

Then, when you are ready to do a proper taper, get your loperamide on hand, some good supplements, healthy food. Get some high-calorie ensure or something for days when the last thing you wanna do is eat. You can knock those back and you get calories and lots of vitamins. Nutrition without having to eat basically. These and other steps will give you a physical advantage for the quit. They will also give you a psychological advantage of having an arsenal of stuff to combat symptoms while at the same time helping your body and brain heal and start to return to normal, pre-addiction levels. This is a long road, as I am learning and many have told me about. But each day gets better, and the biggest thing you'll have spurring you on, in addition to our support here, is your FREEDOM from needing to take something every single friggin day!

You can and will get there Kosmos. You still sound determined to quit, eventually. That's a good thing. Be kind to yourself. Don't think of this as a set-back or find reasons here to tell yourself you can't quit. You can. Think of this as some lessons learned, bide your time, stay functional, and start mentally preparing for the awesome thing you're about to do. When the time comes to go through the taper and quit, which is hard but not as hard as CT, get a piece of paper and write on it in large letters: "You are a wonderful person and you're doing something incredible for yourself. You are worth it. Keep calm, keep on, keep faith." Something like that. And put it somewhere where you will see it often.

You got this, and I got your back. Take it easy Kosmos. And again, be kind to yourself about all this.

peace,
pnm

Beat It
15-06-2012, 23:55
Even if you don't take kratom every day you can still get slight w/ds from it after awhile, took about 4 weeks of me using it every 3 days to get some slightly annoying w/ds that last around 5 days. Nothing serious though but still annoying.
And how are you guys spending $80+ a week on kratom? You must be using extracts, when I was using it on a daily basis it never cost me more then $40 a month even when I was using a little less then half a pound of it per month once I had built a good tolerance up to it. I never used extracts except for free samples I got due to the insane price compared to the ground up leaf, they seem like a huge ripoff pricewise.

Well you must have had a cheaper vender than I. The vender I went through charge about 30-35 per QP but it was the best quality out of all the vendors I tried. I would go through about a HP per week and I paid for express shipping an extra 15 bucks. Ended up being around 86 while I was at this level. After a while I could make the HP last two weeks but yeah.

podsnomo
16-06-2012, 00:03
Hey guys, here's a success story from another thread. It happens, and it can happen for all of us.

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/628984-Not-Only-Am-I-Not-Dead-I-m-CLEAN

Beat It
16-06-2012, 00:07
I guess that's the thing that makes kratom so uniquely difficult to stop using versus stuff like heroin or whatever. People more often use kratom to function throughout their day; they don't use it to get fucked up. So it's incredibly difficult to quit in its own way. Not to say that quitting heroin is easier than quitting kratom, obviously. Just different.

That said, I'm seriously considering just throwing the in towel for now, and waiting for a better time to get off this stuff. Dealing with the opening of a new restaurant has been really stressful and I can't afford to take time off. I'll save up and take a week or two off when it reaches the slowest point (which will be in a month or so), and meanwhile I'll actually do a proper taper instead of just eyeballing it in a spoon, sometimes taking more than necessary out of carelessness, which surely has not helped. And I'll get some loperamide (never got around to getting any this time), sedatives/weed for the sleep, and try to get some proper exercise in as well. Right now I have a hard enough time exercising with the kratom, let alone without it, because of how busy I am.

But the idea of 'wasting' these 5 days and giving back in isn't sitting well either. I feel the need to suffer through this, like I've deserved it, like it's all coming back to me. If only I had a job that was less social-intensive, focus-requiring, etc. this might be more feasible. But going into work with a really poor mental/physical state could lead to bigger problems like serious issues with co-workers or customers. I get in stressful situations all the time where I feel on the verge to lose it and do something that would get me in trouble, but I keep it in check. As of now I'm in good standing all around, well-liked and respected, but it's taken a lot out of me just to get to and maintain that point. Feels like it takes everything.

Tell me if I'm just using dangerous rationalizations, but I feel like I might have rushed into this out of impulsive frustration and a better time and a better plan might be the right way to go. Obviously it all depends on how I feel. I haven't worked a shift without either the kratom or, more recently, the perc, in a while. If it's just one day without it's pretty bad but manageable, just because one day of feeling crappy is nothing compared to weeks or months of feeling even crappier.

I think you bring up a very rational point here and I don't think your just using dangerous rationalizations. I know for me personally the w/d took at least two-full weeks. During this time, if I was at work, I wouldn't have done too hot and I'm sure that I might have lost my job anyways. I think the reason that I was able to get through it is because I could fall back on my family for help. Which is kinda the fucked up thing, addicts always fall back on their family when they try to quit. Shouldn't be their responsibility but I am very grateful my family was their for me. I was about to relapse on day 5 but thankfully my dad intercepted the order and said he'd hold onto it until I could make the right decision. I'm very glad he did this for me, giving me 1 more day, I decided to sell what I had. That was really the hump for me, day 5. Day 6 my physical w/d stopped so I moved on to taking ambien at night to help with anxiety. Anyways... lol my point is that I needed help to get through the hard part. If you have the option, I would even consider rehab treatment if it's covered my your health insurance. The only reason I got through day 5 was because my family intervened on me. Yeah I was pissed off at the time, but I'm thankful they were there.

Your right, having some free time is very important, but most people give themselves too little. If you can take the time off of work than I would recommend at least taking two weeks off. If your in rehab, most likely your company should not be able to fire you because addiction is technically a disability- I think lol
I would check it out but I think everyone should consider rehab as an option, even for something as "silly" at Kratom.