Kratom Addiction/ Need Help After Withdrawals Are Over

Ninae said:

It doesn't really matter what you do, it still stops working, so you either have to quit or upgrade to ecstracts (Full Spectrum Tincture and UEI being the only extracts worth it, though overpriced, but easily available).
The withdrawals are really nothing. Some really bad mood and mild physical symptoms for about 5 days. Less than 1/3 of the withdrawal from real Opiates.

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I used kratom for about 3 months every day in a row and didn't build much of a tolerance to it, except when I started using double doses, when I did that the tolerance went up really fast and I switched to green malay for a few weeks and tapered with it, then after a month or so I took a bali dose my bali tolerance was much lower and got great effects off it, but decided to finish the taper and stop taking it every day. After the first month of taking it daily I started taking about 150mg dxm every few days and it seemed to help alot in preventing the tolerance from building up quickly. There are ways to reduce tolerance like I said, you using extracts because the powder stopped working is a terrible idea since it just raises tolerance even more and they will stop working eventually and the withdrawals will be much, much worse. I would not say the withdrawals are really nothing at all, after about 2 months of using it the postal worker forgot to deliver the package and I went a day without it, and it was horrible. Nothing to take lightly whatsoever. And the withdrawals last more then just 5 days, even after tapering off of the kratom the withdrawals weren't completely gone until after 15 days or so and the withdrawals were really bad for the first week. I could only imagine how long they would last and how bad they would be if I didn't taper off of it.

Wow...very similar stories to mine. I pretty muched kick my drinking habit,but replaced it with hydros and poppy seed tea. Been going on for a couple of years. Thought about switching to Kratom, but never had same effect on me as lortabs and pst. But never was sure about the dosage. So, my question, is it easier to come off pst or Kratom? I figured I might as well taper off of pst than add Kratom to the mix....any suggestions? Thanks!

Pooooooooodddddddddddddsssssssssssnooooooooooooooomorrrrrrrrrrre!

So, I'm 30,000 feet up, wondering where you are and if all is well. I'm going back and forth with getting a jack and coke or three, but I don't want my husband to smell it on my breath!!! Still Kratom clean. Feeling optimistic! What is up PNM?

PNM,

Great victory here on the way back to Austin. I let that cart go right on by. I am proud of myself. Are you okay?

Nancy

maryjanedoe said:

Wow...very similar stories to mine. I pretty muched kick my drinking habit,but replaced it with hydros and poppy seed tea. Been going on for a couple of years. Thought about switching to Kratom, but never had same effect on me as lortabs and pst. But never was sure about the dosage. So, my question, is it easier to come off pst or Kratom? I figured I might as well taper off of pst than add Kratom to the mix....any suggestions? Thanks!

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I've used the kratom (the uei stuff) as a tool for lessening the wd's from opiates, but have never considered mixing them. From what I have read from other threads, poppy tea wd's are, or can be as debilitating as those from the "harder" opiates. Having experienced opiate wd's more times than I'd like to remember (including suboxone), my advice to you is when it comes to the point when you do decide to quit your opiates, use kratom just during the wd's. It really helps getting through, and once they subside, you can easily quit the kratom w/o developing a habit for it. (there's not really a lot of effective drugs that you can take for opiate wd's that's as benign as kratom is, or as effective)...

Sorry Nance. I went all incognito on you there. Last I'd told you, I think, I had told my gf about my poppy pods habit. Things have been kind of tough since then. I drank a couple of the nights before I told her and a couple nights since. Made me feel like such shit. Then yesterday, I was just dying for something, something to make me feel better. I was searching on the internet for shit like how to deal with emotional pain and so on. I really thought she was going to dump me. She's SO angry. And it sucks. What was killing was the little things, like if I'd call her shed answer with this tone like I was the embodiment of all that was shite in life.

Anyway, I don't know how, but I came across meditation in my searches, and the most meditation I'd done was sitting quietly trying to let go of my thoughts and let my head clear, not knowing or having ever even read it about it. I came across guided meditation. I found an hour-long video on youtube that was basically a CD put to a picture. I plugged my laptop in, laid down on my back, pressed play, closed my eyes and.... my life was changed.

Since I had drank a couple nights in a row, I was having a hard time with idea of going back to not drinking anymore. Except in the mornings. In the morning I'd feel like such shit I'd look forward to not drinking that night, but as the day wore on that would slowly change. Anyway, this meditation, which I listened too again last night as I went to sleep, and again today after my morning work, is really changing my life. It already has in a major way. And then I went on TPB and got some other meditation stuff.

I'm telling you Nancy, and the rest of you FWIW, this PARTICULAR guided meditation fit right in with my concept of a higher power, seemed to speak just to me. This was no accident. Something far greater than myself is at work here. Something put that in my life when I needed it. I have no "religion" and don't believe in anything that is taught in any church, (except UU) but I'm now comfortable just using the word god, because the actuall explanation is infinitely long and still incomplete. So I don't try to explain it.

Last night I went over to my gf's place for a while to talk, and if I hadn't done that meditation earlier in the day, I would have been a basket case, would have likely said all kinds of mean shit, but I was peaceful and content. And after listening to it last night and going to bed sober, I feel like a new person. Ad I listened to it again this morning around lunchtime, which led me into a little nap at the end of it, and I awoke feeling more good feelings.

I'm not off the kratom yet, but I find myself forgetting I'm even hooked on it. I went over to my gf's place last night and forgot to take what I would have normally taken for the afternoon, and when I began to feel bad from not taking it, I lifted my thoughts ti somewhere else. Somewhere perfect and eternal. I could no have done that previously.

So, I feel quit confident now in being able to taper off the kratom by attending to my spiritual condition through meditation and "prayer". And by eating well, sleeping better, and taking better care of myself in general. I know it's going to be tough, but that no longer frightens me the way it used to.

I wish I could write more. Nancy, PM me if you think you might want to try this meditation and I'll send you the link. Or if you already used your 1 pm every 36 hours or whatev it is for greenlighter's, just request I pm you from here. I'll be back to checking in more often.

I'll write more later and respond with my thoughts bout what you've said as soon as I can. Hang in there Nancy!

Peace and love,
pnm

nancylynnsmith said:

Pooooooooodddddddddddddsssssssssssnooooooooooooooomorrrrrrrrrrre!

So, I'm 30,000 feet up, wondering where you are and if all is well. I'm going back and forth with getting a jack and coke or three, but I don't want my husband to smell it on my breath!!! Still Kratom clean. Feeling optimistic! What is up PNM?

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well wow, I am truly touched by the support system that this forum has turned into. There are some really beautiful posts here. I've been on vacation to see family the last 9 days and have not touched kratom, but I have had that suicidal feeling in me the whole time, which I know is withdrawal and partly a build up of the depression I've ran from. I'm reading that some of you have or had problems with alcohol, and I too have been substituting alcohol for the boredom / apathy / in between feelings-feeling that the absence of mood-altering substances reveals.

Now I am back from vacation, and I'll admit, the kratom is tempting! This is day 11, and the thing that keeps me from touching the kratom ends up being a very simple thing: sleep! I'm having REAL sleep now, which took about 7 days off of kratom to get to. I find one dose of kratom will mess up the quality of my rest for a whole week, and I'm really enjoying using sleep as a hiding place (along with alcohol, caffeine, food.. one at a time, I guess). I have found that focusing on one short term, concrete negative symptom of usage keeps me away better than all else.

Oh and dude, anybody else gaining tons of weight upon trying to quit substances? One of the attractions to kratom for me was its weight loss effect, and now I'm just going out of control crazy on food, and feel very fat... Time for exercise but wondering if anybody is transferring anything to food addiction?


Peace, all. I am going to catch up on these posts tomorrow, but time for some of that good quality sleep now...

Hey PNM (and all),

What a relief to hear from you! I was worried that you'd gone on some kind of bender and didn't want to post any more. I am so glad to hear from you! I'm really glad the meditation is working for you. During my many sleepless nights, I've tried deep breathing, listening to my Spanish tapes (I'm learning to speak Spanish), and an audio of something really boring, like the book of Leviticus in a dry, monotonous voice. Nothing worked so I've been downing Nyquil. I'm going to ease off that and go for melatonin/valerian combo soon.


Anyway, I'm glad it was so good for you. I've always had a hard time simply emptying my mind. I don't know about the PM - how to do that - but I would like a link. Something I remember reading about meditation really made an impression on me. In an article about Aung San Su Kyi, the Burmese opposition leader who was under house arrest for years and years, she said meditation was the only thing that kept her sane. I've never forgotten that. Since I'm a practical person, that made an impression on me as far as thinking about meditation as a sanity tool.

I feel so good. I guess it's because I'm doing something I didn't think I could really do. Today and yesterday and day before, I didn't drink. My husband seems to be okay with it. He doesn't know that I plan on going to AA yet, but I'll fall off that bridge when I come to it. I truly feel more optimistic than I have in years. I feel healthy even though I can't sleep and still have digestion (read 'the runs') problems like crazy. I just really feel healthier because I'm not looking to scratch every itch I have.

I'll post more later. ASIAM, stick in there. This thread has made a difference to me, having some kind of accountability to PNM or connection. Anyway, don't give up.

Love to all,
Nancy

Glad to hear from everyone and that this thread is touching so many of you, that touches me. And that's a bg deal for someone like me who is touched ;-)

A bit of a roller coaster here. My gf is still really mad, and just out of sorts over everything. Short backstory for those who are just tuning in, I recently told her about an opiate problem I had the whole time we were together, which I quit almost a month and a half ago.

Now she's gotten this really bad "gut feeling" about a new job I'm trying in financial services. It's not like anything I've ever done, and that's the excuse she gives for it freaking her out. I think, and my sponsor thinks (and he's usually right) that she's reacting in part to my asserting myself in my life like I'd never have done when I was so numb from the alcohol and pods or just the pods. First, she was really mad, which is fine. She's entitled to be mad. I humbled myself and apologized as sincerely and givingly as I could. That's the best I can do right now. I told I'd be happy to talk about anything anytime. I told if there was anything I could do to help her or just help things between us in general for her to let me know.

Well, then we had some good time together. I went over and brought her food one night, and the next night we watched our favorite show together. Then the next day she got furious with me in the middle of the day. I know she's still raw about it, but that swing from feeling like everything is getting better to knowing she's mad and judging me again tears me up. It made me want to cry, scream, and it made me want to get reeeaallllyyy drunk. And that made me realize how tenuous my sobriety is right now, albeit tainted by the kratom.

And back to the kratom.... I don't get much of a buzz off of it anymore, and I'm refusing to take higher doses. I also am not sure I can stretch what I've got until I can order again when I get paid Thursday. This was going to be last order when I got it. Now, I'm thinking I'll need more. I'm lacking the will and resolve to quit it.

quitting drinking was hell. quitting poppy pods was hell to the 4th power. And I know quitting kratom would be lots less hellish, but Nancy you're right what you said about kicking your last kick and going on with nothing (besides coffee, cigs, masturbation, food, and maybe sex if things work out with the gf). So where does one draw the line. Some of the guys in AA will say you're not truly sober until you get off ALL mind/mood altering substances, including anything prescribed by your doctor (like a pretty low dose of klonopin for anxiety), including even allergy pills, OTC sleep aids and such.

Part of me feels damn sober, compared to where I was. But if I quit kratom, am I sober since I still take 1.5mg klonopin/day and 10mg ambien for sleep at night? Or am I only truly sober once I've gotten off ALL that. Then am I sober if I use coffee and smoke cigarettes still? Do I need to be monk who only eats plain white rice, the occasional broccoli floret, and denies himself all earthly pleasures? Of course not!

But finding that balance is a true challenge, both on the path to sobriety and on the path that begins with sobriety.

Nancy, you should tell your husband why you want to attend AA. Actually I'd like to know. To stop and keep stopped from drinking? To fellowship with others who share your problem? To find peace in sobriety? (These are all good reasons You needn't push him to accept it or worry too much if he does, esp not at first. He'll eventually see that by doing what is best for yourself is also best for him and the two of you as a pair, and ultimately for everyone who knows and loves you both.

That's most of it for now.

More soon. I'll PM you a link Nancy.

Warmest regards,
pnm

Oh, and asiam, congrats on so many kratom free days. Sounds like you're out of the woods on that front. One at a time indeed! I wonder why you quit the kratom first and not the alcohol. ? You must not be the kind of drinker I was. If you're just using a couple drinks here and there, then I'll try not to worry about you too much. Just keep a vigilant eye out. If your drinking starts creeping up, then there it is, cunning, baffling and powerful.

And I know what you mean about food and stuff. I find that when I crave, sometimes I just crave something, anything. Food, ice cream, orgasm, cigarette, to punch someone in the face HARD... Those are easy things. More difficult, and admittedly less common for me, is to respond to those cravings with something healthier: walk the dog, exercise, clean something, read a book, and stuff like that.

The bottom line, I believe, for anyone who's a true addict, is that we must find a spiritual solution to our physical malady. And not religion, that's for people who don't wanna go to hell. Spirituality, that's for people who've been there. I been there peeps!

So I pray/meditate/whatever, and ask the Invisible Everything for the strength to make the right choices, to be useful to others, to be humble. I say the serenity prayer: God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things that I can, and wisdom to know the difference.

Sometimes I say that a hundred times in a row when I'm really goin nuts. Anyway, starting to ramble, and I gotta send Nancy that PM I just promised her. I think I'll have a bowl of ice cream and THEN walk my dog ;-)

Love and peace,
podsnomo/pnm/pods

Hey PNM,

I think one of the reasons I sense a kindred spirit is that you have the same 'itch' that you feel compelled to scratch - the craving - for WHATEVER - that HAS to be satisfied that I do. We just usually take 'the easier softer way' most of the time. I haven't given up all my kicks yet - just the big, artificial ones (booze, kratom), but I'm taking them one at a time. The other stuff I take, zoloft (100mg) a day for mental health, the allergy pills/nyquil to sleep, I don't consider 'kicks.' I consider them truly medicinal - just like insulin. I know my brain needs zoloft - through a lot of trial and error. Because of sleep problems related to female hormone changes - I need the sleep help. Don't you think we know what is recreational 'kick' and what is really just necessary? I think it's unwise of AA to really say we can't do ANYTHING. I deep down know what I use to divert my attention and provide that boost or 'scratch.' So, even though we are great rationalizers, I think the path we're on will lead us to honesty about what we use or abuse. You've done really, really well with the pods and booze. When you're ready, you'll get rid of the Kratom. Don't think about all the other crap yet.


I hope your girlfriend can start to focus on the fact that you're trying your best to be the best man you can be instead of feeling betrayed. My first husband kept a big lie from me for years, and honestly, though it was a much more destructive lie than pods or kratom, it took me awhile to get over the shock and the feeling of 'who is this person that I knew nothing about?" Once I got over the shock, it was easier to go back to feeling like I could trust ME in knowing that I KNEW who it was I'd been married to for years. It made me wonder what the hell was wrong with me that I didn't see my husband honestly. Maybe she's feeling that as well. Mad at herself mainly because she thought she knew everything about you - because you're intimate with one another.

Just give her some time and continue to be honest with her. Sometimes the obvious needs to be stated over and over again in soundbite form: 'This can only be good for our relationship." over and over.

Keep it up. I'm hanging in there. Trying to find a way to respond to the ITCH in some kind of healthy way - exercise, sex, reading, talking to friends, studying etc. I'm in the process of trying to find more and better ways to get that boost - or be happy without it.

So, off to AA tomorrow.

Love,
N

Good for you Nance, and thanks for the encouragement and kind words. I should be clear, it's not everyone in AA that thinks people need to be off of everything, including OTC sleep meds, etc. It's just some of them. Most of them, IME, feel that if you're not having your lunch eaten by something like booze or opiates, you're doing well. My sponsor doesn't worry about my scripts for klonopin and ambien. He just tells me to take them exactly as prescribed because for too long I was my own chemist/pharmacist. My experiences with drinking as hard as I did for as long as I did, then quitting drinking, then getting hooked on pods...all that have been along one path towards a better, more fully realized ME.

I told my gf a couple nights ago that I needed some distance from here, some space, because I couldn't handle the feeling like things were OK one minute and then her being furious with me the next. But, in fact, I did something that would make anyone angry, and I need to learn to respond to her hurt feelings and her anger with compassion, sympathy and support to the extent of my ability, and not let her anger just make me feel hurt.

We had a good couple of nights. Though I've not stayed at her place since I told her, we "got friendly" one night, and the next night watched our TV show. Then the next day she was all upset and mad again. That's when I got all churned up inside and felt like I needed a drink, badly. But I got through that. And didn't drink, thank god.

The katom, I just don't know right now. It's comforting to hear you say that when I'm ready I'll get rid of it, but I don't want to tread water. I suppose I'm looking for that easier softer way. I know I'll get rid of it, but how long? I need to order some today. Like, now, and can only order a bit, just to get me to payday. Even then, I may go broke for a day or two if an expense arises. I'm getting tired of needing it, or wanting it, or whatever. I often think I'll try and go the next day without, or just with a tiny bit, but then I wake up with chills and sweats and tummy woes. So I take a normal-for-me dose (about 8-10g) and I get my energy, feel good, and am ready to go. Prior to that, I don't know how I'm going to be able to get everything done I need to get done in a day.

Anyway, let me know how your first meeting goes. And remember, if you don't like a meeting, there always others, unless you live far from an urban area. My city has TONS of meetings and I can find one quickly whenever I want. I hope you have a great experience your first go. If you are serious about it, you should look for a sponsor. It's important, but don't rush into a sponsor you don't click with. Just find one soonish.

Let me know Nancy, and to all you reading this thread, chime in with how you're doing with kicking kratom, and other things. If you're lurking, just sign up and post. We'll be kind, we promise!

Peace,
pods (no more)

Hey PNM,

So much going on, right? You didn't drink Well done. All these feelings that get churned up - whether mildly annoying or downright shite, really made me drink. So Bravo. I wouldn't freak out about Kratom right now. Really. I'm not just saying that. If the Kratom made you want to indulge in the other stuff (just like 'feeling great' sometimes causes people to drink) like your pods and a drinking bender, then, yeah, it needs to be dealt with RIGHT NOW. But I really do get the sense that when you're ready - you will.

So, first AA meeting. What I discovered is that I'm stuck at the dash of STEP ONE: Yes, I DO KNOW that I'm powerless over alcohol, but I really don't think my life's unmanageable. I am a steady, quiet drunk. I can drink a half a fifth and still carry on a conversation in which it appears that I'm only slightly tipsy. I CAN DRINK ALL DAY. Morning to night. When I was young I went wild. I'd drive drunk, dance on tables, jump in fountains - classic twenties shenanigans. Now, I can stay home and drink all day. I don't drive drunk. I don't start fights in bars. I don't really do anything I wouldn't normally do anyway. I come from a long line of bona fide Scottish, high functioning alcoholics. So I'm stuck thinking I only need AA Lite.

Thanks for checking in.

Love,
N

Thank you Nancy.

I think you're right. I am truly making progress in AA, a lot of spiritual progress. And I got honest with my gf about the poppy pods, which sucked and I am still dealing with consequences there. I just have to trust that I did the right thing, because secrets keep us sick. The kratom doesn't make me wanna drink or do anything else. If it weren't for the deal of having to some more WDs I'd drop it like it was calculus as an elective. I just don't like that I still have THIS secret. She was so devastated, and continues to be, by the fact that I kept the pods from her for our whole relationship. That night when I told her she asked me, tears in her eyes, exasperated, "Is there anything else?" "No," I said. And honestly, at the time, I wasn't even thinking of the kratom.

I PMed you a little thing about step one, specifically the unmanageability. I had the same reaction; actually I didn't even think I was powerless over alcohol, because after all, I decided to quit, and I did. The thing was, without help, without my AA brothers, it is too much for me. So, alone, I am powerless. And I thought I was managing fine. I have a doctorate, wasn't working full time (but that was b/c/ of no jobs, not my fault). What I learned I wasn't managing was my inner life. I was sad most of the time. I had negative attitudes toward lots of people/places/things that didn't deserve all that negativity. I couldn't manage the inner-me, that is, I could only manage to get through and feel alright, sort of, by drinking away the feelings/thoughts/reactions/emotions that I'd been tamping down with beer and booze for two decades.

It's OK if you only feel you need AA lite. But if you are an alcoholic like me, or even an alcoholic not like me, just an alcoholic at all, then I beg of you for your sake and all those you love to do this: Just remain willing to be willing and keep an open mind. That's all. In time, you will either find that you are not a real alcoholic, or that you are. Thing is, very few of my AA brothers and sisters thought they were alcoholic, and just as many, including me, said the same thing about unmanageability. That said, again, you might not be an alcoholic. Listen to this guy's story either way. It's quite funny, and he's a wonderful man. I've met him even! http://www.aaspeakers.org/Burns_B-f...he_1994_Huntsville_Roundup_3-in-Huntsville_AL

Peace, and more about all of my struggles soon,
pnm

Podsnomo, I am so happy for you that you told your girlfriend about your poppy habit. Not mentioning kratom sounds like it was an honest mistake, I give you great kudos on telling her that you have a problem none-the-less. That is HARD to do! Because it means you are fighting the habit, whether your body is telling you that you want it or not, you have held yourself accountable for a huge problem in your life and it means you really want change, and that is extremely admirable and motivating to all that read your posts (and myself).


Oh, you asked a question, why did I not quit alcohol before kratom, well simple, I didn't drink until I started using kratom. I only started to drink on my kratom off-days so that I could get through them, and bam, a habit was born. I see a lot of threads that talk about quitting alcohol by using kratom, well the reverse is possible too... I never liked alcohol until I started to need it to get me through a kratom withdrawal day.

Your spiritual connection is inspiring, I think that is our way out. I have a book sitting next to me called "Addiction and Grace", and it is about how addiction spurs from attaching spiritual relationships to substances instead of looking for a true spiritual connection. So it shows strength that you have that faith in the "invisible everything", which I believe in too . You mentioned courage, one thing I find extremely helpful is remembering the definition of courage from it's original latin translation: "Tell your story with all of your heart". It is the opposite of secrecy that gets us out of the deep traps we fall into, and that is why I give you such tremedous respect for telling your girlfriend, honesty is courage. She will be there with you now.

Oh, I should mention that I had a very tiny (3grams) of kratom 2 nights ago. I barely felt it, but I did feel more socially comfortable. I realize the trigger was that I was going to go do a physical activity with a friend, and I felt pressured for both physical energy, and social energy. So I took it quickly without thinking. I am still proud that I only used 3 grams which is very small. As I hear it, relapse is part of recovery. I do feel tempted to use it tomorrow and start an every-3-day-habit, which isn't good, but better than every day at least... I dont know... It sure did interupt my sleep and I feel very tired now since that usage.... but it's still tempting. And, i'm rambling. I may go to a nar-anon meeting tonight, not for me but for a friend that has the biggest hard-drug habit i've ever witnessed (actually hanging out with this person is what motivated me to use kratom in the first place, so this person is my main trigger), but it can still help me immensely

asiam said:

Podsnomo, I am so happy for you that you told your girlfriend about your poppy habit. Not mentioning kratom sounds like it was an honest mistake, I give you great kudos on telling her that you have a problem none-the-less. That is HARD to do! Because it means you are fighting the habit, whether your body is telling you that you want it or not, you have held yourself accountable for a huge problem in your life and it means you really want change, and that is extremely admirable and motivating to all that read your posts (and myself).


Oh, you asked a question, why did I not quit alcohol before kratom, well simple, I didn't drink until I started using kratom. I only started to drink on my kratom off-days so that I could get through them, and bam, a habit was born. I see a lot of threads that talk about quitting alcohol by using kratom, well the reverse is possible too... I never liked alcohol until I started to need it to get me through a kratom withdrawal day.

Your spiritual connection is inspiring, I think that is our way out. I have a book sitting next to me called "Addiction and Grace", and it is about how addiction spurs from attaching spiritual relationships to substances instead of looking for a true spiritual connection. So it shows strength that you have that faith in the "invisible everything", which I believe in too . You mentioned courage, one thing I find extremely helpful is remembering the definition of courage from it's original latin translation: "Tell your story with all of your heart". It is the opposite of secrecy that gets us out of the deep traps we fall into, and that is why I give you such tremedous respect for telling your girlfriend, honesty is courage. She will be there with you now.

Oh, I should mention that I had a very tiny (3grams) of kratom 2 nights ago. I barely felt it, but I did feel more socially comfortable. I realize the trigger was that I was going to go do a physical activity with a friend, and I felt pressured for both physical energy, and social energy. So I took it quickly without thinking. I am still proud that I only used 3 grams which is very small. As I hear it, relapse is part of recovery. I do feel tempted to use it tomorrow and start an every-3-day-habit, which isn't good, but better than every day at least... I dont know... It sure did interupt my sleep and I feel very tired now since that usage.... but it's still tempting. And, i'm rambling. I may go to a nar-anon meeting tonight, not for me but for a friend that has the biggest hard-drug habit i've ever witnessed (actually hanging out with this person is what motivated me to use kratom in the first place, so this person is my main trigger), but it can still help me immensely

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Thanks for your super-thoughtful reply Asiam! And thank you for your kinds words. I think you're right on about honesty and spirituality. For me for sure, the only solution to my physical malady is a spiritual one. I've tried just about everything else, and this is the ONLY thing that has kept me away from drink and hard opiates.

And I wouldn't call your 3g dose a relapse. I'd call it a slip. But yes, for most of us, it is part of recovery. My sponsor though, he was only ever a drunk. Alcohol only, but once he quit and came to AA he never drank again. Or hasn't since. He stays very plugged into the program. So, relapses and slips are not requirements for recovery, but they are common.

I never knew the origin of the meaning of courage. I shall remember that.

Something else I heard this week that was awesome was when I was listening to Burns B. (Burns Brady) on aaspeakers.org. (I linked to it in my previous post) He was talking about psychotherapy and how they put him into that when he had an amphetamine problem in college, well prior to his alcoholism. Anyway, he said that in cognitive therapy what is done is that they try to basically get you to think yourself into a different way of acting/behaving. And it works for just about everything else, but not for the disease of alcoholism/addiction. For us we must do the reverse: we must act/behave ourselves into a new way of thinking. That blew me away. So THAT's why I had to tell my gf about my addiction. They secrets keep us sick, and they do. I wouldn't have ever told her when I was actively using, but now I'm acting my way into a new way of thinking, and it's working. It's a relief not to have that over my head all the time, even though we're both still dealing with the pain that ensued from that bomb shell I dropped on the woman I love SO much.

And good for you on attending a meeting. I don't know whether or not you have a serious problem, or how serious it is or could become if you do have one. What I do know though is that all you have to have to start a path to recovery (should you truly and desperately need it as I did) is a the tiniest bit of willingness. Less than that, all you need is the tiniest bit of willingness to be willing to be willing. That's all that is needed. So if you do find yourself in hot water someday, never forget that. It could save your life.

I'm almost out of kratom. Just enough for tomorrow and a small package should arrive tomorrow. How many people check their tracking number 20 times a day? Anyway, I'm going to stop with ordering multiple strains and quit fooling myself that I'm a connoisseur. What I'm really doing by continuing to take kratom is entrenching an addiction to it. I've got to get honest with myself there. I don't think the physical WDs will be as bad as the mental cravings afterward, as you've experienced. And I'll need to rely heavily on my seedling spirituality to get me through that. Knowing I'm finally free will be an amazing source of inspiration for me.

Nancy, what's up? I hope I wasn't presumptuous or overdoing it with my attempts at advice. Let us know how you are, eh?

peace and love,
pods no more

Hey Pods No More, and Asiam,


It's great checking in and reading such thoughtful and honest responses. THIS, at the moment is what is keeping me optimistic and committed. I go through this cycle with my quitting kratom and drinking where I'm energetic for a few days and optimistic and then I get the blahs. It's happened about three or four times in the last month and a half. I'm currently in a real blah stage. It hasn't helped that I have a killer headache right now and had it yesterday. When I get like this, I lie around all day and don't do anything. So anyway, I got my ass out of bed at least today, and I'm waiting for my headache to abate. I joined a dance class that meets every other day, and I'm going today even if it involves shuffling around

No, you were not at all presumptuous with the advice. I appreciate it these links A LOT. I listened to BB yesterday. Very insightful. Very funny and while I couldn't relate to ALL of it (a point he made about listening to others' journeys) I related to a lot of it.

I'm still struggling with the 'unmanageability' part but I know I'm bullshitting myself, because I could never drink one or two drinks. Every time I drank, which over the last four years has been every day or every other day, I drank until I went to bed. THAT's alcoholism - without the DUI's, car wrecks, etc.
I have a friend who has been telling me for years that I'm an alcoholic. She said one time, about my marriage, "It (your alcoholism) is going to become a problem). It hasn't yet, but I can see how it would. Drinking wasn't making me happy anymore - it was making me maudlin or morose. There's nothing more obnoxious than a crying drunk. As much as my husband loves me, yuk! So anyway PNM, I'm willing. And I'm going to keep going to meetings even though there isn't this sense of 'now or never' that I should have.

Asiam, hang in there. Our minds are so tricky. Like PNM pointed out - we can't really change our thinking - we have to rely on the behavior change first - and for me that means AA. I do know that one can't do this alone.

My head is killing me, so I think I'll go watch some TV for awhile (maybe Intervention. I love you all. Thanks for being here. Keep me updated.

Love,
N

nancylynnsmith said:

Hey Pods No More, and Asiam,


It's great checking in and reading such thoughtful and honest responses. THIS, at the moment is what is keeping me optimistic and committed. I go through this cycle with my quitting kratom and drinking where I'm energetic for a few days and optimistic and then I get the blahs. It's happened about three or four times in the last month and a half. I'm currently in a real blah stage. It hasn't helped that I have a killer headache right now and had it yesterday. When I get like this, I lie around all day and don't do anything. So anyway, I got my ass out of bed at least today, and I'm waiting for my headache to abate. I joined a dance class that meets every other day, and I'm going today even if it involves shuffling around

No, you were not at all presumptuous with the advice. I appreciate it these links A LOT. I listened to BB yesterday. Very insightful. Very funny and while I couldn't relate to ALL of it (a point he made about listening to others' journeys) I related to a lot of it.

I'm still struggling with the 'unmanageability' part but I know I'm bullshitting myself, because I could never drink one or two drinks. Every time I drank, which over the last four years has been every day or every other day, I drank until I went to bed. THAT's alcoholism - without the DUI's, car wrecks, etc.
I have a friend who has been telling me for years that I'm an alcoholic. She said one time, about my marriage, "It (your alcoholism) is going to become a problem). It hasn't yet, but I can see how it would. Drinking wasn't making me happy anymore - it was making me maudlin or morose. There's nothing more obnoxious than a crying drunk. As much as my husband loves me, yuk! So anyway PNM, I'm willing. And I'm going to keep going to meetings even though there isn't this sense of 'now or never' that I should have.

Asiam, hang in there. Our minds are so tricky. Like PNM pointed out - we can't really change our thinking - we have to rely on the behavior change first - and for me that means AA. I do know that one can't do this alone.

My head is killing me, so I think I'll go watch some TV for awhile (maybe Intervention. I love you all. Thanks for being here. Keep me updated.

Love,
N

Click to expand...

About to head out, but wanted to quickly say, you don't need a sense of now or never. "If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it-then you are ready to take certain steps." -Alcoholics Anonymous, p.58

That's all. Do you want to be "rocketed into a fourth dimension"? It's waiting for you, and once there, you'll be amazed. I'm only partially there, and already--amazed!

More soon.,
pnm

Good grief,

I'm being a real asshole. In my effort to show how cool I am with not drinking, I mixed my husband's nightly bourbon and coke. I need a sponsor. Didn't take a drink, but sure almost did.

N

You do need a sponsor Nance. This person will help you work through your feelings and reservations about the program, but it is only you who can decide if it's right for you. Burns says it took everything it took for him to get to where he was. For me, I didn't have a rock bottom. Well, spiritually I was bankrupt, but my life was not that bad: gf, part time job, doctorate in hand...felt like I was managing just fine. I finally realized there was a difference between eking out a pretty unhappy, spiritually bankrupt life, and living a whole-life, complete with peace in my heart and a feeling of purpose. The deal is, for for me at least, and for a lot of high-functioning alcoholics, is that I never really had a do-or-die choice. I don't have one of these stories that includes jails and institutions and hospitals. But I am for sure an alcoholic.

Anyway, I'm rambling and I gotta get ready for work. Nance, you're not an asshole, nor are you being one. This is a tricky journey we walk, especially in the beginning. You absolutely must be kind to yourself. Almost taking a drink doesn't make you an asshole; it makes you human. No more calling you names.

warmest regards and more soon,
pnm