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Does 2CB work on serotonin?

elpro

Greenlighter
Joined
Dec 1, 2010
Messages
16
I've heard conflicting reports. Some say 2CB does not work on serotonin, despite feeling similar to MDMA, which theoretically means one could take 2CB and not screw up MDMA tolerance or deplete your serotonin.

However, I've also now seen some conflicting reports saying it does work directly on serotonin, in a similar manner as MDMA. Does anyone really know?
 
2c-b attaches to the 5-HT2A serotonin receptors which causes its effects, it doesn't release serotonin like MDMA would. I have heard that a very slight amount is possibly released but that amount compared to MDMA is not really comparable, that's just what i've heard and haven't read any solid evidence on. So it shouldn't mess up MDMA tolerence at all, or deplete your serotonin.
 
Wel at one I do 2cb then mdma 2 weeks later then in another 2weeks back to 2cb
That worked well no bad effects or reduced good
 
Is "binding with recepter" same as "mimics"
And is complearltly sective to 5ht 2a
 
A very simplified overview:

I don't like saying that 2C-B "mimics" serotonin (5-HT), as that's just kind of a sloppy use of language and is meaningless; it does and it doesn't. 2C-B acts as a partial agonist at a specific subtype of 5-HT receptor, called 5HT2A, on cortical pyramidal cells (which are the major computational units of the prefrontal cortex). This means it "activates" the receptor in the same way as 5-HT by binding to it and causing its shape to change, but not to the same degree as 5-HT, so the resultant signaling cascade is altered and thus sensory effects are elicited. 2C's also have activity at adrenergic receptors in addition serotonergic receptors, so the pharmacology is a bit sloppier than just that -- but 5HT2A partial agonism is really the gist of it.

MDMA, on the other hand, binds to 5-HT transporters, which are kind of like revolving door type mechanisms that usher 5-HT back into the axon terminal; it then causes the "revolving door" to run backwards and instead efflux 5-HT from the axon terminal and into the synaptic cleft. MDMA also has similar activity at catecholamine transporters and VMAT. Recent research with knockout rats indicates that MDMA's mechanism of action is likely more complex than just this, but its a perfectly good explanation for our purposes here.

The mechanisms by which 2C-B and MDMA act are very different, and as such they are categorized in different classes by pharmacologists (2C-B: psychedelics; MDMA: entactogens).
 
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from the one or two scientific articles i've read, it seems that 2cx (they tested 2ce, 2ci, and 2cc, so i'm only assuming it'd be the same for 2cb) can inhibit re-uptake of serotonin, but not really stimulate release of serotonin. mdma does both of those things, and it inhibits re-uptake more strongly than 2cx does.
 
Roger&Me;10626732The mechanisms by which 2C-B and MDMA act are [I said:
very[/I] different, and as such they are categorized in different classes by pharmacologists (2C-B: psychedelics; MDMA: entactogens).

But both will overstimulate 5-HT, so there will be somewhat of a cross tolerance, no? Not as much as other serotonin releasers obviously, but if you took 2C-B the day after a roll it wouldn't be as good, and vice versa.
 
Roger's answer is a good explanation of the specific mechanism if you guys are looking for details.

And is compleatly sective to 5ht 2a

2C-B actually strongly targets half a dozen different receptors, and has clinically significant action on several more. In fact, there are two other serotonin receptor subtypes that it targets MORE strongly than 5-HT2a.

from the one or two scientific articles i've read, it seems that 2cx (they tested 2ce, 2ci, and 2cc, so i'm only assuming it'd be the same for 2cb) can inhibit re-uptake of serotonin, but not really stimulate release of serotonin. mdma does both of those things, and it inhibits re-uptake more strongly than 2cx does.

This was actually tested recently, and 2C's do NOT in fact inhibit serotonin reuptake. The psychedelic amphetamines (DOx, etc.) do, though.

But both will overstimulate 5-HT, so there will be somewhat of a cross tolerance, no? Not as much as other serotonin releasers obviously, but if you took 2C-B the day after a roll it wouldn't be as good, and vice versa.

The reason you have given is not incorrect, but there is a more significant mechanism of cross-tolerance between the two than simple serotonergic downregulation. 2C-B and MDMA are both high-efficacy partial agonists of 5-HT2b, a receptor that is in no small part responsible for their sensual, tactile, and physically euphoric effects. This is actually the serotonin receptor that both compounds bind most strongly to, and their is a notable cross-tolerance because of this. Additionally both MDMA and 2C-B possess significant agonistic affinity for all three alpha adrenergic receptors, which creates further cross-tolerance between the two compounds.
 
^ Glad to hear it from someone who actually knows what they're talking about!


Got a source perchance? I'd love to read more :)
 
This study evaluated binding affinity to serotonin receptors, dopamine receptors, adrenergic receptors, monoamine transporters and several others for a bunch of psychedelics. They found that all of the 2C's tested had negligible affinity (Ki values larger than 10,000 nanomolar) for the serotonin transporter, whereas DOI, and to a lesser extent, DOB both had affinities for SERT, so one would expect competitive inhibition of serotonin reuptake to be caused buy those drugs.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0009019
 
^Not to poo in your salad, but that paper by Ray has some serious methodology problems. You should check out the ADD thread about it, its interesting. I doubt DOB or DOI have much affinity for SERT, honestly... that same paper also claimed MDMA has negligible affinity for SERT, which is totally bogus.
 
I was about to suggest the same thread Roger just did, great read. Along those lines though, yes mdma has some binding affinity at 5ht2a, albeit not much. So in some sense it is possible that upon taking mdma after 2c-b there could be some reduction in the already mild trippy effects of mdma. Whether this would be perceptible or not is debatable, especially given that the trippy aspects of mdma are not really the main event.. Likewise taking 2c-b after mdma could cause a very slight reduction in effects .as well. I've not come across anything definitive about 2c's & SERT, but the general consensus is that if they do cause any 5ht efflux, its mild to negligible.
In short there shouldn't really be any cross tolerance between the two. Though in my experience tripping for a few days after rolling is somewhat ill advised. YMMV
 
^Not to poo in your salad, but that paper by Ray has some serious methodology problems. You should check out the ADD thread about it, its interesting. I doubt DOB or DOI have much affinity for SERT, honestly... that same paper also claimed MDMA has negligible affinity for SERT, which is totally bogus.
Hey, this topic is extremely interesting for me, would you mind linking to that thread :)
 
If either one of these materials are tried on their own at separate dates, then their respective effects usually proceed with positive and profound results. In combination, or closely following one another, their respective effects have less mentally tangible resolution without the backdrop of normal consciousness. Put simply. You surprise your head with one material, your head is still recovering its feed back loops and compensatory whatnot. You gobble another material of perhaps different active mechanism. Because you are already mentally and physiologically off of the launch pad so to speak, the second material will likely not be as vivid as it would be alone. I think that expectation plays a strong part. At baseline one experiences purer anticipation and excitement as the substance makes itself known to you against blank canvas.
Otherwise, points to consider, have metabolic pathways been activated by material 1 that more effectively process such substances? Or, are all the enzymes so busy cleaning up after the first material, that the second one gets loiter around for longer?
There's lots of complex chemical binding data to wade through. I'm no science boffin, but there are many levels on which cross tolerance makes intuitive sense. Psychologically, and in terms of simple biology. As a layman I love to read what is described regarding the roles 5ht receptor subtypes etc. The more I do though, the less clearly deterministic the whole thing becomes. Sometimes a phenomenon can be better grasped on the Macro scale rather than Micro. It's rather like a fractal. The closer one focuses in on a particular detail, you realise to truly understand its significance requires a whole supporting background of other scientific knowledge and understanding.

On the whole I have found the cross tolerance between 2CB and empathogens to be more of a synergy really. The original Pihkal recipe was a 2cb chaser following MDMA, as to empower creative processing of insight gained during the earlier phase. I've had some good moments that way. I prefer now to use medium/profound dose of 2CB at T.00 followed by empathogen once I've become accustomed to the 2CB. In the same way that tryptamines are slightly shinier subjectively than phens, I sometimes like to start with a 4Sub tryptamine before overlaying an empathogen. It lets one get extremely far out, and yet still take yet another step off the edge, while maintaining a reasonably stiff upper lip. Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way. It's not so bothersome with a big smile wrapped across your face.

The way around psychological tolerances might be to apply something with a radically different dynamic. That would, for me, involve pulling out the DMT n pipe. It never disappoints me, whatever I've already imbibed. It usually occupies all of my conscious and unconscious awareness irrespective of however odd I'd thought things had become already.
Sorry I rambled. There's probably some crumbs of truth in there.

Peace - Pipp
 
This study evaluated binding affinity to serotonin receptors, dopamine receptors, adrenergic receptors, monoamine transporters and several others for a bunch of psychedelics. They found that all of the 2C's tested had negligible affinity (Ki values larger than 10,000 nanomolar) for the serotonin transporter, whereas DOI, and to a lesser extent, DOB both had affinities for SERT, so one would expect competitive inhibition of serotonin reuptake to be caused buy those drugs.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0009019
Haha. I was wondering if this was the paper you were going to cite. It's an interesting article, but I'm not sure that I would draw any definite conclusions from the Ray paper alone, especially in light of its contradictions of the prevailing paradigm. I'm not saying that it's definitely wrong, but only that the results should probably be independently confirmed.

This paper, although it does concern the rat SERT rather than human SERT, covers monoamine reuptake and release directly:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17223101

I just wish that they had assayed some DOx compounds.
 
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