Opioids The Kratom (Mega)Thread v2

ErgicMergic said:

I love Melatonin and take it every night (most effective dosage is 0.5-1mg), but it won't exactly get you through hardcore opiate withdrawal, lol

Heavy opiate withdrawal either needs a cocktail of Clonidine, Benzos, hypnotics, and loperamide, or even better, a very low taper dosage of opioids/Kratom.

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I came in just to basically say this, heh.

Fresco, I appreciate the sentiment. But I've used melatonin for years now (I have mild-moderate insomnia WITHOUT WD in the picture), and when I was in the middle of my first kick the ONLY thing that got me about 45 minute naps was literally taking 5 Metaxelone (sadly all I had at the time) pills on top of 15mg of Bali Kratom to make me as sedated as possible, and even then, with my body feeling like gelatin, I could barely get any sleep. The melatonin I take regularly, even in an increased dosage, made very little difference.

When you're body is shocked to that degree, you either break out the big boys or you better be one hella mental tough. And I'm not mentally tough, whatsoever (what got me into this mess in the damn first place!)

Fresco said:

Probably true. I only have experience with codeine and kratom, but nothing stronger.

Also melatonin works best for me when mega-dosing. I once popped about 25 mg spread out throughout the night. I kept waking up at night, so I had to keep popping 5mg melatonin tabs...LOL

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Yeah... Melatonin isn't even a drug, it's a hormone. Personally, I think 3mg is way too much. I wouldn't go and shove anything more than 10mg down my throat, who knows of the long term effects of a hormone at that kind of dosage? If you need anything more than 3mg, I would supplement Melatonin with something like L-Theanine, Doxylamine, or Magnesium.

Studies have shown that doses higher than 1mg can actually be counterproductive for sleep, and that they just increase next day side effects. I find myself falling asleep much easier at the 0.5-1mg dosage than at 3mg.

300-500mcg (0.3-0.5mg) works best for most people.

SaosinEngaged said:

Exactly. But there is one caveat; it was this expensive and very potent extract, not regular Kratom. My first attempt at getting clean failed because Bali wasn't strong enough, and I was awake for over 60 hours before, in a delirious state of near-psychosis, going out and picking up just so I wouldn't wish death upon myself. Then again, this is because my dependence level is quite high at 250 mg/ day. If you're around the 100mg mark, Bali Kratom, regular powdered leaf should do just fine for you (it has for me in the past). It's only when your tolerance is decently high that you may need to look for something stronger. For me, sleep deprivation is THE worst WD symptom. I can handle the aches, pains and general discomfort. I CANNOT mentally handle going without sleep for 3 days.

Hope I've helped someone.

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Yeah I hear you, I totally agree about the restlessness, for me the restless legs and pain in my legs, i basically didn't sleep and would cram 8x edibles into myself and still be in pain.

The mental strength wouldve been tested but I had no source anymore, and unfortunately my kratom was 3 days late, came the 3rd or 4th day!!!
Luckily i was somewhere around 60mgish daily ish, so bali gave me such relief. Energy, lack of depression, and even euphoria.

Moving on, Ive just been reading how insoluble mitgrayna is in water, and tea is my primary method.
More specifically boiling water and pourin it in a teapot w the leaf and stirring.

How could i improve?

Tolerance on Kratom seems to build up very fast. I've taken it more often the last 2-3 months, at most 2-3 days in a row and mostly with breaks of a few days in between but nowadays, 5g's of finest powder (which a few months ago would've put me into a noddish mess) gives me just some noticeable but nevertheless smooth buzz.

How long does it approximately take to decrease tolerance if i take no kratom anymore? Btw, i take no other opioids/opiates atm.

Thanks!

I've posted a solution to this THCified, a couple pages back. Kratom is best used recreationally every other day at the very most, the relatively subtle high (relative to the in-your-face euphoria of real opiates) of Kratom fades quickly with the slightest of tolerance, making it a great medicinal tool to use daily without affecting your cognitive functioning.

Check out Erowid for detailed reports on responsible, recreational Kratom usage, as I find that the Bluelighters/anononymous people that have wrote reports for Erowid generally have more respect for drugs than a lot of newer drug users nowadays who are just trying to get high all day, every day.

Yes, i know, you wrote about the prior intake of Zinc, Magnesium and DXM, you mean that, right?

About what medicinical properties are we talking about? Analgesia? I've found kratom especially good in calming me down if i'm upset or at least more careless, if you know what i mean Funny thing is, if i'm already relaxed it sometimes makes me more angry. Strange and also very nice stuff!

Yup, those supplements after a 2-4 week break, keeping tolerance low after starting Kratom again at a low dosage.

And I mean analgesia, anxiety relief, depression relief, fatigue amelioration, opioid maintenance, ADD relief, etc.

For those following my "story" I'm going to post another update. My ultimate goal is to give a small write up and summarization of my OVERALL experiences with Kratom, the different types I've used, and how best to prepare and use them. This will follow in a few days - week or so to when I have the time to really sit down, reflect, and write it up. UEI is one topic I'm going to reflect on very positively, because I found the "addictive" nature of it to be far less than I originally thought, and thus I actually WOULD recommend it to hardened opiate addicts looking to get clean. More to come on that.

Anyway, I'm now 3 days off UEI, completely. Days 1 and 2 I was certainly in a state of WD, but it was FAR, FAR, FAR less severe than the initial WD from Oxy. I actually dosed 26mg of Loperamide and it abated the symptoms completely, repeated at 30mg the next day. Today I haven't taken any more loperamide and actually just got done making a strong cup of Bali tea (about 18g) and not only did it obliterate the lingering WD symptoms I had, I fucking feel fantastic, all around. Best I've felt in years, honestly. This is my first dose of ANY type of Kratom in about 85 hours. I'm definitely on the path to sobriety here, finally. All I can say is at points this process felt hopeless, but the lingering notion of how much better off I'd be (not spending a shitfuckton of money, for one, with a family and mortgage to take care of) saw me through it.

And, thank you to any and all of you who have responded positively to me, gave me encouragement, and told me to hang in there (all not just in this thread, through my other topics as well), because honestly, this site is the best therapist I've ever had and I fucking have love for all of you, seriously. We're all somehow brothers (and sisters ) in this constant battle of the brain cells.

It's interesting, quitting opiates can be such a major philosophical choice in terms of methadology. You're either going to kick cold turkey and just tough it out, or use something (usually opioid based) to reduce the symptoms but at the expense, usually of protracting WD as I've chosen. So you're basically choosing between a longer, milder WD with periods of near-normalcy and periods of feeling bad to shitty, or a short, acute WD with one period of feeling ungodly, hellishly, purely fucking awful. I just feel like (my own methadology, if you will), in this day and age we have so much more general knowledge, so much more information readily available to us, and there are just so many ways to combat WD that I guess the only people choosing to just CT it out with only maybe just the Thomas recipee are people who truly need to put a foot past the gates of hell to make themselves realize how badly they want off.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/19/10760892-asian-leaf-kratom-making-presence-felt-in-us-emergency-rooms?lite

Jesus. Fucking. Christ.

I'm not one for prophecies, but stock up on your damn Kratom while you can. The idiots, sheeple, and soccer moms (all inherently one in the same) are going to ruin one of the most effective WD aids for us because of this garbage. Can't tell you how angry this article makes me, dunno who's seen it.

Better stock up on this potential "public health risk." But leave Tylenol freely available in high doses for everyone to kill their livers with. BRILLIANT.

So embarrassing to live in the USA at times. Ignorance prevails. Although the article makes an attempt at removing bias and exposing its benefits, it largely retains a hefty negative spin that will surely make uninformed readers agree this is some kind of legal dope. Where is the logic and reasoning? How about a ballsy and idealistic physician standing up for Kratom and saying, "before we make any rash decisions, lets evaluate its potential as a treatment to opiate dependence." Instead, all I see is an inbred swine calling to ban it before a "research paper shows him it has any positive effects" ignoring all the fucking research readily available on Kratom; perhaps point this buckfutter to the google search bar? Fucking infuriating. I understand the process. I understand the role of the DEA and what it tries to do, but the public and media tend to jump to gross exaggerations and simplifications of a complex topic and somehow, someway the DEA tends to fall in line with public. Where is the professionalism, the impartiality, or FFS, the science in that?

An acceptable compromise would be to illegalize the extracts (although so much potential for severe WD aid lies with UEI) and allow the plain leaf to remain legal or at the very least 21 to purchase, illegal to drive on. A reasonable conclusion the DEA is vastly unlikely to go with.

Apologies for the harsh tone (I curse heavily in real life, what can I say, I must have Bristol Bay crab fisherman blood in me or something. Regardless if it's offensive to anyone or belittles the point of my post a mod is welcome to edit it out. I find it liberating to be on a forum where cursing isn't inherently banned so I don't have to censor myself, I do enough of that in my daily routine. I have a very strong penchant for vitriole that probably speaks to my darker, more nihilistic nature.)

It really hurts to think of what could come of this. People jumping back to heroin/harsher opiates; an effective dependence treatment and WD aid gone, oh yeah, and me still wallowing around in my own shit because I can't kick my oxy habit. But no big deal, the federal guvmint loves sending people back to their drug habits. The lack of progressive thinking offends me.

Yeah that shit is so fucked up, I hate the way this country is. The people up top seriously need to pull their heads out of their asses.

Here's my attempt at using their logic.

Lets try this on with the tylenol example:

*Dr calls media* " Hello, media?? EMERGENCY EMERGENCY ZOMFG ZOMFG. There's this new drug, called APAP and PEOPLE ARE DIEING LEFT AND RIGHT FROM LIVER FAILURE BECAUSE OF IT! All we have are a bunch of APAP vendors stating it works as an effective fever reducer and mild painkiller for generalized aches and pains. WHAT FUCKING DRUG ADDICTS LOL"

Yes, this isn't a perfect example but it certainly helps illustrate a very real irony going on here as tylenol certainly is dangerous (I should put deadly, but I wouldn't want to overexaggerate and oversimplify like the fucktards) if taken improperly, which is astonishingly common. Not to mention the extremely low ceiling dose on liver toxicity.

The flaw here being the abuse liability in Kratom clearly missing from APAP (actually this is somewhat false because of all the centrally active painkillers that contain APAP, a lot of the poor, uninformed abusers out there plant themselves firmly in the ER from this). My counter? Take a good, hard, long (heh) look at alcohol and then come back and talk to me about dangerous addictions.

silentcowboy said:

Yeah that shit is so fucked up, I hate the way this country is. The people up top seriously need to pull their heads out of their asses.

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Unfortunately friend, this addiction is epidemic in America - The Land of the Free, the Home of the Brave (tm) (c)*


*note: the use of this phrase without the expressed, written consent of -> America <- will have your ass locked up and poor for a very, very, very long fucking time


-----

Suck on this, America:

Carl Sagan was a user and advocate of marijuana. Under the pseudonym "Mr. X", he contributed an essay about smoking cannabis to the 1971 book Marihuana Reconsidered. The essay explained that marijuana use had helped to inspire some of Sagan's works and enhance sensual and intellectual experiences. After Sagan's death, his friend Lester Grinspoon disclosed this information to Sagan's biographer, Keay Davidson. The publishing of the biography, Carl Sagan: A Life, in 1999 brought media attention to this aspect of Sagan's life. Not long after his death, widow Ann Druyan had gone on to preside over the board of directors of NORML, a foundation dedicated to reforming cannabis laws.

The plight of Kratom will eventually become one in the same with that of Cannabis, once enough intelligent people realize its benefits. The only hope I have is that all these intelligent people with progressive, logically formed ideas are horny as hell and start procreating at alarming rates so we breed out the paralyzing stupidity. - A joke (for the most part), I'm not for eugenics.

The day I believe anyone at the DEA/FDA is as ungodly smart as the legendary Carl Sagan* is the day I shit like a person not taking opiates with neither being imminently likely.

* Literally a god amongst men, Carl Sagan is one of the incredibly few people who have walked this earth that I hold in the highest regard.

How is it mixed it with Soma (carisoprodol)?

I've always though soma was better than benzos overall the only benzos coming close was temazepam but definatley I preffer Soma over benzos

I was thinking soma potentates opiates so one could possibly get some codeine with or without caffeine (very hard without caffeine) to mix with the soma.

So a Kratom (dominated) high potentated by Codeine & Carisoprodol.

I've used benzos to potentate Kratom but I've been on clonazepam since 2004 at 4mg a day so there is not much at all clonazepam does to me compared to a few years ago (hardly chills me out). The only time I can feel a little more is when I switch to a different benzo like diazepam, temazepam, alprazolam but even then it isn't anything special.

I've used it it with stong hashish and marijuana and it felt good just more sedating from the hash or more confused from the weed (but more stimulated than smoking just weed/getting stoned).

And used it with alcohol no more than 1-2 beers (500ml cans so 1L of beer over couse of 1-2hrs..not down the throat).

The reason I drank beer and I took benzos a few times other than because I was prescibed was because I had gotten very stimulated from the kratom and wanted to go to sleep. The weed I had wasn't nearly strong enough to do it and I didn't know anybody for hash.

p.s. I think this would be the best potentator since opiates like morphine and codeine are potentated by soma (carisoprodol) ...and very nicely potentated in theory mixing codeine with carisoprodol (Soma) as a means to potentate your Kratom would be do the job the best?

peace

just noticed there is a v2 to this

muie said:

How is it mixed it with Soma (carisoprodol)?

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Fantastic. I'm prescribed Soma and the combo with either strong Bali or UEI is marvelously euphoric and relaxing IME. However, I do strongly enjoy Soma by itself and many do not, so this may vary person to person. As always, use common sense when dosing and know your tolerances because generally, mixing two CNS depressants, no matter how "weak" is generally never best practice (especially with Soma, since it varies so tremendously in terms of effects and tolerance; where one 350mg pill will turn someone into a gelatinous mass, another person may handle 10x350mg and be okay).

If you're going to do it, I'd hold off on the beer or any other CNS depressant. The potentiation of Soma and opiates is very real and has caught me off guard several times.

I decided yesterday to ingest a new kind of Kratom powder " red sumatra" at a dose of 7.5g. It was very nice, more energy initially but more of a nod later as well. Also decided to attempt a combination of cocaine and Kratom. Good descision.

I used about .2 of some mid grade cocaine about 1.5 hrs after Kratom consumption. It was verrrrrryyyy nice considering I tried this coke by itself previously and was not impressed. The high was much more pronounced, felt like a minor speedball, and the comedown 30 mins later ( lower grade coke= gross decrease in duration) was almost nonexistant. Yup no comedown at all just a drop back into kratomland haha. Just thought I'd share.

I found this today, atleast there are a few writers that know what their talking about.

The five biggest misconceptions about kratom in the media
May 20, 2012 at 9:18am ·

When kratom appears in the media, it is often described in a negative way and associated with other substances that it has nothing to do with. Clearly, kratom is still relatively unknown in the western world and this seems to contribute to some general misunderstandings. But by comparing the herb to opiates, as some journalists do, or talking about abuse and addiction as though this is somehow related to kratom, the users of this gentle herb are being negatively stigmatized as well. So below we show the most frequently occurring misconceptions about kratom, that appeared in the media the last few months.



Misconception 1: kratom is a substance of abuse.

Kratom usage rarely, if ever, leads to the situation where usage results in negative effects for the user or for his friends and family. Kratom has never been responsible for a police call, poison control center call, traffic accident, death or any other form of societal disruption. Kratom does not cause crimes. It does not cause aggressive behavior. It doesn't cause people to become impaired and lose their inhibitions. It poses precisely zero threat to society.

Kratom is also not a "street drug alternative," despite the fact that a few ignorant vendors try to market it as such. Those who do use kratom as a "legal high" or drug substitute are invariably disappointed, and likely move on to something else (although it should be noted that it poses no risk even to those who would try to use it for such purposes). But kratom users are, in fact, mainly middle-aged and well-educated folks who mostly use it as an alternative to deal with depression, anxiety, pain, addiction or other ailments.



Misconception 2: kratom is not safe.

In case the thousands of years of safe usage are not sufficient to prove its safety, one can check the scientific reports of its toxicity as well. Compared to stimulants and prescription medication, kratom is relatively much safer. Besides this, kratom also contains a wide range of beneficial compounds, including immuno-stimulants, anti-hypertensives, antileukemics, antioxidants, vasodilators, analgesics, antitussives and more. Again, considering the number of people that have used kratom, how many incidents have been reported? Yes, zero to none.



Misconception 3: kratom is addictive

Kratom can be habit-forming for some. That should be acknowledged freely. But the distinction that must be made, and often fails to be reflected in media reports, is that there are profoundly varying degrees of habit-forming potential. Kratom's habit forming potential is in the same league as that of coffee. People drink coffee, at least in part, because they enjoy the subtle caffeine boost. They enjoy it, so they continue to drink it often. After they have become accustomed to drinking it for some period of time, it's natural that it may be difficult at first should they decide to give it up. This is much the same with kratom.



Misconception 4: kratom has no medical value.

Since the media often report negative assumptions, the real reasons why people use kratom are completely being ignored or even denied. But one look at our kratom testimonials, will show that there are many great benefits to its usage. For example, Kratom is an excellent pain reliever. It isn't hepatotoxic in the way that acetaminophen and other pain relievers are, and it doesn't have the serious risk of addiction and the mentally and emotionally numbing effects of opiate-based pain relievers. For many people, it's the best pain reliever that they've found and it allows them to regain the life that chronic pain took away.



Kratom is a general stimulant and an effective anxiolytic. While it's not a long-term treatment for depression or anxiety, it does help with both in the short term, and it doesn't have the various risks and side effects that antidepressants and anxiety medications have.



Kratom is an exceptional aid for overcoming addiction. For many people, it still is the only thing that has ever truly worked. From alcohol to prescription drugs or heroin, countless people have used kratom to rid themselves of their addictions and regain control of their lives. It contains for example the compound rhynchophylline, also found in cat's claw that possesses NMDA antagonistic qualities, which are proven to disrupt addiction and habituation.



Misconception 5: kratom even had to be banned in Thailand, where it came from.

This is often is used in media as some kind of reference: if it isn't legal there, why should it be here? Traditional usage in Thailand dates back to early mankind. One of its tradtional applications was as an alternative among those battling with opium addiction, and controversially this lead to the kratom ban in Thialand in 1943 as we have explained here. The ban had a lot to do with corruption, and very little with concerns about public health. Today there is a growing number of people who plea for a decriminaliziation of kratom. Like , Pennapa Sapcharoen, director of the National Institute of Thai Traditional Medicine in Bangkok who said that kratom "could be prescribed both for opiate dependence and to patients suffering from depression" And a recent report from the Transnational Institute and Thai Narcotic control Board, who concluded that "Kratom is an integral part of southern Thai culture" and furthermore "Criminalisation of kratom is unnecessary and counter-productive given decades of non-problematic use". And who have recommended that in the absence of health and social harms, kratom usage should be decriminalized

^^^

Thanks for restoring some of my dwindling faith. That article is a start. There's a twofold problem: a) who is reading that article? Kratom supporters or Kratom detractors? b) It's basic psychology that people resort to behaviors that confirm a predetermined belief or mindset, which becomes incredibly (and always to me, strangely) difficult to change. If one of these hell - bent, GET KRATOM SCHEDULED NAO!!! types sees this article, they may dismiss it ignorantly before even really reading it. Second to that, is it "enough" in the public eye? The article I referenced was on a mega-popular mass media website, which, stupidly, media illiterate (read: most people) types take as gospel truth. ..Where did this come from?

Lest anyone think I've been overtly negative about this whole thing: a) I'm a total pessimist. It's the reason I have a very fucked up sense of self and extremely depressed tendencies. I tend to be a bit too literally realistic. b) It's going to really kill me if this plant is outlawed. Despite my issues I do derive pleasure from helping others (as I have been helped on this site) and seeing people achieve their own salvation through whatever means necessary. Kratom is still largely underground, if it broke PROPERLY into the mainstream, backed with PROPER control and doctor support, it could be the salvation of the modern addict who isn't on this or other drug forums.

I once had a burning desire to become a psychologist who specialized in addiction therapy. Unfortunately, my demons got in the way and my own self loathing stopped me from achieving my goals. I suppose you could say it isn't too late, as I'm still "technically" enrolled in school and was a mere 9 credits from graduation with a 3.97 GPA, but a seemingly unending amount of momentum built up pulling me away from that goal. I met the woman I'm spending the rest of my life with and about to marry, I took up a job offer from an inroad I had via family, and am making good money (money don't equal happiness, trust me, learned that the hard way too), I was hit by a drunk driver who decimated my lower back, thrusting me into pain management and becoming a catalyst for my addiction. And lastly, perhaps the biggest reason being my own most paralyzing issue; extreme fear of failure. So, I came here, received inordinate amounts of help from many wonderful users, and now that I'm recovering I'm trying to give a little back as best I can, living a personal dream a bit vicariously through the site. Posting here is also a good bit of self therapy.

I mentioned a few posts back about making one comprehensive Kratom write up, I'll probably get started with that this weekend and pack it with as much information as I've acquired through the process of trial and error along with my thoughts. Kratom definitely has a learning curve.

I hear ya, if kratom was outlawed i would be back on pharms, maybe worse >.< Its been so great to me and to many others. The articles that claim its a problem infuriate me... we need to do something, but what? I agree that if kratom was brought forth in the mainstream in the correct way it could help so many people.

silentcowboy said:

I hear ya, if kratom was outlawed i would be back on pharms, maybe worse

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Maybe thats exactly what Big Pharma wants. Maybe politicians and Big Pharma are in bed together.

Maybe thats why kratom will soon become illegal

I've finally got back to a point in life that im feeling well all the time, thanks to kratom. What can we do to make accurate information about kratom available to the public?

^Don't take this wrong, please. I agree that accurate information should be made available, without doubt. But I also think that Kratom should not be promoted or talked about too much, lest it go the way of most other natural psychoactives: made illegal and then profited on by big . It's sad that it has to be like that but too much attention brought to Kratom will certainly be its demise.

Very true, its heading that way anyway. But i think the only way to help that out is to provide accurate info.