Ketamine Dangers

Because there has been a lot of debate over the various dangers associated with ketamine I have done some research and would like to share what I have found.
Ketamine is not the deadly drug the media has portrayed it to be, but neither is it entirely innocent. Various traps and pitfalls await the uninformed and careless user and I'll attempt to unveil these for you.

• Dependency
  Unlike most other psychedelics drugs, ketamine can produce an uncomfortable dependency.
  The ketamine experience often gives the user a sense of being "on the verge" of discovering enlightenment, contacting an alien race, meeting God, breaking through, etc. Because this feeling can be quite strong, users are often compelled to go back "one more time." This can quickly result in using more in a sitting or more often than intended.
  While ketamine is not physically addictive, it does produce similar effects to some of the addictive drugs, notably amphetamines and opiates. Someone using a low dose on a regular basis may quickly find they need it to feel normal.
  A ketamine trip can be the ultimate escape; taking one to fantasy landscapes, other dimensions, beyond death, out of the body, or into oblivion. Its easy to see how this could quickly become a problem for someone with escapist/chemically dependant tendencies.
  After many uses ketamine begins to exhibit different effects on its users. It may become more physical and less psychedelic, and the user may develop more and more difficulty remembering the experience. This can drive some people to use more often and/or in larger doses.
  A few pointers in avoiding dependency: don't buy large quantities, set limits on how often you will use and stick to them, watch for dependant behavior and if you experience it quit using.
• Physical Injury
  Always use ketamine in the company of a sober person.
  Because ketamine is a dissociative it can cause the user to lose control of their body and perform actions that they are unaware of. One can fall over, get up and walk around, fall into water, etc. D.M. Turner, one of ketamine's biggest advocates, drown in his bathtub while on ketamine alone. John Lilly had several incidents on ketamine, one of which involved falling in his swimming pool and having to be resuscitated.
  Do not drive on ketamine! (That shouldn't need to be said but I will say it anyways.)
  *A note about injecting ketamine. Injecting it is much more powerful than snorting it. It comes on quicker and stronger. If you decide to inject, go intramuscularly or subcutaneous. I.V. ketamine can take you by surprise and you may not even have time to remove the needle or remove the tourniquet. This can cause a variety of injury. I.V. ketamine has been known to cause the breathing to stop for up to one minute when administered to small children. This is unusual and shouldn't occur at psychedelic doses but is important to be aware of.
• Ketamine and the Brain
  Perhaps the most debated of all are the effects ketamine can have on the brain. In its defense, ketamine has been used medically for the last thirty years and is still used to this day.
  Dopamine Systems
  In psychedelic doses ketamine can act as a stimulant and indirectly affect the dopamine system producing changes similar to those caused by cocaine and amphetamine. It is unknown to what extent it does this, or what effect this may have on the individual.
  Theoretically it could make it more difficult to experience pleasure and cause cravings for the drug.
  c-Fos Protein
  Ketamine triggers genes to produce the protein c-Fos. This protein goes on to signal the activation of other genes and the production and release of other proteins and hormones. It is unknown what effect this has on the individual.
  Olney's Lesions
  John Olney reported that at a dosage of 40 mg/kg ketamine produced fluid-filled vacoules in the brains of rats. These disappeared in several days; however, when PCP and MK-801 (related chemicals) were given, some permanent cell death/damage occured.
  Researchers have been unable to produce Olney Vacuoules in primates or human beings. The brain of primates has a metabolism half the speed of that in rodents. It is plausible that damage is prevented or reduced by this factor. Unfortunately, the studies that have been done have not been published, and nowhere near enough of them have been performed to be conclusive.
  Mental Impairment
  Many users have reported mental impairment, in a variety of forms, that they believe to be the result of their ketamine use.
  This could be caused by a number of issues. Psychological ones, like post traumatic stress syndrome, genetic ones, pre-existing conditions, some function of the c-Fos protein, Olney's Lesions or something undiscovered. It could also be placebo. Currently there is not enough researchto assume ketamine is safe, but at the same time, it isn't a drug to be feared.
  If mental impairment is a result of ketamine use then it would be increased by duration, intensity and the number of times used. Play it safe and use moderately. Use the smallest dosage required to gain the effest desired, and use it rarely.

Reccomended further sources of information are:
William White's Essay http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dxm/dxm_health1.shtml
Ketamine: Dreams and Realities by Karl Jansen M.D. Ph.D. http://www.erowid.org/library/books/ketamine_dreams.shtml
Pure
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Peace is what happens when two or more people decide they are tired of fighting.

Is anyone allowed to reply to this? Or are you deleting all opinion except yours?

I haven't deleted anything and welcome responses, questions and comments
Pure

Oh, it's just that someone deleted my previous post, unless it didn't go through.
I'm not a big fan of This is your brain on dissociatives regards ketamine as you know. The Jansen source is the one I think people should be checking out.

Both Jansen's book and William White's Essay are great places to go to learn about the effects that Ketamine have on the brain. In some areas you will find that they concur, and in other areas that they do not. For this very reason they both deserve to be read.
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"[The feeling of doing DMT] is as though one had been struck by noetic lightning. The ordinary world is almost instantaneously replaced, not only with a hallucination, but a hallucination whose alien character is it's utter alienness. Nothing in this world can prepare one for the impressions that fill your mind when you enter the DMT sensorium."
Load Universe into Cannon...
Aim at Brain...
Fire!

PuristLove,
I feel that you have said it best in your paraghraph;

Mental Impairment
Many users have reported mental impairment, in a variety of forms, that they believe to be the result of their ketamine use.
This could be caused by a number of issues. Psychological ones, like post traumatic stress syndrome, genetic ones, pre-existing conditions, some function of the c-Fos protein, Olney's Lesions or something undiscovered. It could also be placebo. Currently there is not enough researchto assume ketamine is safe, but at the same time, it isn't a drug to be feared.
If mental impairment is a result of ketamine use then it would be increased by duration, intensity and the number of times used. Play it safe and use moderately. Use the smallest dosage required to gain the effest desired, and use it rarely.

Click to expand...

IMHO, for the majority of users, and possibly visitors to this forum, the debate about whether Ketamine may or may not be neurotoxic is detracting from the anecdotal evidence that when Ketamine is abused, the symptoms you touch upon in your paragraph are a very real danger.
I know of more than one person that has displayed the common symptoms due to Ketamine abuse (inability to speak clearly and articulately, become withdrawn, depression, etc). In all the instances the effects did not persist and the people in question were heavy users. I have yet to see any negative side effects from moderate use.
It is important that people are aware that if they abuse Ketamine they do run the risk of displaying some of these symptoms.
I thought your paragraph got straight to the point and is very valuable to anyone about to or currently using Ketamine.
Bricoleur.
[This message has been edited by Bricoleur (edited 14 October 2001).]

But anecdotal evidence in this case doesn't really suggest anything about K. It could just mean that sitting in your room for months on end addicted to a drug causes mental problems.
Drugs are the bogeymen of our time. We are told constantly in the media that they cause problems. Sooner or later people will start displaying the same symptoms they are told they should exhibit. Tell people something often enough and they'll start believing it's true.
All you really can say about any drug is to use them infrequently and never get addicted to anything.
[This message has been edited by Peyote,K (edited 14 October 2001).]

And around and around we go....
Peyote, K... seems you cannot go a day without asserting your closed minded views as fact:
Peyote, K said:
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"Drugs are the bogeymen of our time. We are told constantly in the media that they cause problems. Sooner or later people will start displaying the same symptoms they are told they should exhibit."
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The media tells us this because many times it is TRUE! Some drugs do cause definite damage to our bodies... others we are not sure about. Yes, I agree that quite often the media will exaggerate their views, but I also see you as doing the same exact thing. The difference here is if one believes the media, they might be less likely to use a drug that MAY pose a risk... if they believe YOU, they may be more likely to use a drug because they believe it is safe. This makes your comments irresponsible and a liability to this site.
Peyote, K also said:
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"All you really can say about any drug is to use them infrequently and never get addicted to anything."
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Do you think addicts wake up one day and say: "Hmmm, I think I want to become addicted (to ketamine, heroin, alcohol or whatever substance) today? NO! Some people see it coming and can draw lines... for others it sneeks up from behind and they never see it coming... for others it comes out of an attitude of denial. Either way, it is a risk associated with some drugs, and cannot be dismissed by saying "Just don't get addicted". You CAN say a LOT MORE about drugs than just that - and that is why we have this forum, and Bluelight in general.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I appreciate your contribution in this forum - either take more responsibility in how you voice your opinions here, or they will no longer be welcome.
SG
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"[The feeling of doing DMT] is as though one had been struck by noetic lightning. The ordinary world is almost instantaneously replaced, not only with a hallucination, but a hallucination whose alien character is it's utter alienness. Nothing in this world can prepare one for the impressions that fill your mind when you enter the DMT sensorium."
Load Universe into Cannon...
Aim at Brain...
Fire!

How many times...
We've established there is no scientific evidence K causes brain damage, or any of the effects you say it does. All you are going on is "anecdotal" evidence that a few blokes on the internet said "it did this to them". Anecdotal evidence can only ever be acceptable if there arn't stories on the internet every day saying "K causes memory loss". Because that influences the way people think, can you see that?
If this was 1920 you would be saying "You still can't accept that masturbation causes insanity can you..look at all the stories in the media about masturbation causing brain damage.."
And don't put words in my mouth. I've never said you can't become addicted to K. You can become addicted to almost anything from computer games on. Use common sense and use all things in moderation.
[This message has been edited by Peyote,K (edited 15 October 2001).]

Drugs are the bogeymen of our time. We are told constantly in the media that they cause problems. Sooner or later people will start displaying the same symptoms they are told they should exhibit. Tell people something often enough and they'll start believing it's true.

Click to expand...

I am sorry but this statement only serves to perpetuate your own personal agenda. Don’t you see that I could use the same argument to dispute Janssen’s work, and your interpretation of his work? But what would the point of that be?
Perhaps you think K. Jansen is “true” because you have decided that that is what you would like to believe to be true, and all else is thus “false”?
The “belief” game that you play is not a game that results in any great value – especially when applied to psychedelics.

We've established there is no scientific evidence K causes brain damage, or any of the effects you say it does.

Click to expand...

I am not in a position to debate about whether Ketamine causes brain damage or not as I am no neurologist, but as far as the other effects we have been discussing are concerned, it is very difficult and foolish to ignore personal accounts.

All you are going on is "anecdotal" evidence that a few blokes on the internet said "it did this to them".

Click to expand...

So naïve. Are the experiences of “flesh” friends any more credible to you? Thought not.
I find it very hard to believe that you are actually an active participant in a forum like BL where 99% of the information exchanged between people is usually extracted from personal experience. What criteria do you use to decide whose personal accounts are more “truthful” than another’s? I do not understand what value you could possibly be getting from a forum where you have no regard for the very nature of the information exchanged?

Anecdotal evidence can only ever be acceptable if there arn't stories on the internet every day saying "K causes memory loss".

Click to expand...

Or if the anecdotal evidence says “K does not cause memory loss or brain damage”. How do you justify which of the anecdotal evidence you choose to believe contains “more” truth? Perhaps for you it needs to come from the pen of K. Jansen? But we are just playing the “belief” game again, aren’t we?
Have you ever considered, even for one second, that perhaps there are these stories because they actually contain “some” truth? And when you are thinking about an answer to that question try to expand the context beyond your own experience and that of K. Jansen.
Have you ever considered, even for one second, that perhaps K. Jansen work actually contains “some” false information? After all you wouldn't want to be the person who learnt the hard way.
Take care and control.
Bricoleur.

Peyote, K... YES there is data suggesting K is neurotoxic... it has been shown in other animal species. Have similar studies been done in humans... NO. A SAFETY STUDY MUST BE DONE WITH A CONTROLED HUMAN POPULATION IN ORDER TO ESTABLISH SAFETY. This is true for any drug. Will they ever be done, probably not. the studies would be too long for the purpose of looking at chronic useage and I can't see them being ethical. Does Dr. Jansen say that Ketamine is safe for chronic human consumption... NO, he does not! He actually sites other researchers who refuse to give recreational ketamine a "clean bill of health".
You know what? We BOTH know all sides of this argument, and by now most of the regulars in this forum do as well. I see the data, and remain conservative - you see the data and attempt to use it to justify your leap of faith. You haven't let this go in the past, but continue to irresponsibly preach your beliefs over and over in this forum and in others.
Also, I have never put words in your mouth... those are your quotes, mate.
I have been extremely patient and dealt with your attitude long enough. I honestly do not care that you and I are in disagreement, but I DO CARE that the thoughts that you continue to construe as fact may pose a danger to this forum's readers and a liability. Consider your opinions on this topic no longer welcome here on Bluelight. They are being sensored from here on out, and you are also in danger of loosing your posting priviledges.
SG
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"[The feeling of doing DMT] is as though one had been struck by noetic lightning. The ordinary world is almost instantaneously replaced, not only with a hallucination, but a hallucination whose alien character is it's utter alienness. Nothing in this world can prepare one for the impressions that fill your mind when you enter the DMT sensorium."
Load Universe into Cannon...
Aim at Brain...
Fire!

::sigh:: this is my stance on the subject. Look special K has been PROVEN to cause brain damage in smaller animals, AND chances if this is true for smaller animals it is LIKELY that it is true to people, although not indefinate. My advice, would be to NOT do special K frequently, as well as any other drug, and if you ARE gonna go for a K-hole, takes william white's advice and just take a benzo with it to prevent some damage K? It doesn't take a lot of work to reduce risk.
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Christian "Trippies" Alonso
AIM: Trippies
"Techno, because white boys need to dance too!"
SCC 4 LIFE!!!
BPC FOREVA!!!

We don't need to have a conflagaration about this Seb. You've put your view, I've put mine. I think your views are terribly dangerous to kids because there's no evidence behind them. If your only evidence is "my mate on the internet says it made him feel a bit funny", no kid will ever take anything you say seriously. Even when you do have evidence something is genuinely dangerous. When you say "Heroin is addictive" he'll just laugh at you.
I'm just trying to go on the available evidence rather than "anecdotes". Anecdotal evidence can mean anything you want it to.
There is ample evidence implying K isn't neurotoxic in humans. The studies that were done in small animals were repeated in primates to no effect. K has been in widespread human use for 30 years, it has been used millions of times and no brain damage has ever been observed. Massive amounts of MK-801, a far more neurotoxic compound than K, were injected directly INTO MONKEY'S BRAINS 24 hours a day for months on end. No damage was ever observed. Read the Ketamine Neuroprotector thread again for an in-depth discussion of this.
By the way, chronic use of ANYTHING is dangerous. That's obvious. Take 30 paracetomol every day and you will be dead in 6 months. Eat 100 mars bars a day and you will die. That doesn't mean mars bars are deadly.
Use K like an idiot, or eat mars bars like an idiot, and you will hurt yourself.

hmm.
first off:
for this type of information, trust nothing but a peer-reviewed scientific journal. preferably the most recent available.
all other resources, including jansen's book, white's "this is your brain on dissociatives", and my posts are subject to interpretation and may contain errors. even the journal articles contain errors.
realize that in the short term ketamine is almost entirely safe; a larger-than-admitted number of drugs are. the only way you're likely to suffer any immediate harm from K is if you hurt yourself, and that can be entirely avoided.
some of these posts look raverized.
ravers should be aware that K is an infinitely 'cleaner' and less harmful drug than MDMA, whose metabolites cause the formation of hydrogen peroxide and other free radicals in the brain, things that are chemically destructive to the brain (specifically to the serotonin system, at least) in a big way. this is because of the chemical properties of the drug itself and not necessarily because of the high it causes; if it happened that MDMA was not active in humans, it would still be a neurotoxin if it was metabolized in the same way.
ehh.
i have to go now;
but im going to leave saying i know little about c-Fos and i'm going to post about that later.
some of the features of c-Fos are somewhat disturbing; however, there are apparently a lot of things that induce c-Fos expression and i don't think it's appropriate to say ketamine is especially harmful because it's a c-Fos inducer. MDMA, incidentally, is too.

If your only evidence is "my mate on the internet says it made him feel a bit funny", no kid will ever take anything you say seriously.

Click to expand...

I'll ask you again, what about when the evidence comes from people you know in the flesh? That you have witnessed with your very eyes? Let me guess, those people displayed those symptoms before they ever abused Ketamine; am I right?

Anecdotal evidence can mean anything you want it to.

Click to expand...

By your own definition, I fail to see how anecdotal evidence is any different to "real" evidence.
I make no claim that Ketamine is or isn't neurotoxic. What I do claim is that WHEN ketamine is abused, *some* users DO experience mental impairment. I say that because of the 3 people I know (flesh friends) who have *abused* Ketamine ALL THREE have shown symptoms to a varying degree. Dare I also mention the accounts that I have read online?
Taking into account that Ketamine is considered by many "experts" to have a high abuse potential, do you not think that people should be aware of the *possible* dangers? Or should we just censor it like the campaigners for the War on Drugs?
Bricoleur.

"Taking into account that Ketamine is considered by many "experts" to have a high abuse potential"
Not sure that's true. Karl Jansen is the world authority and he thinks 15% of the people who LIKE Ketamine may have addiction issues. That really isn't a whole lot of people.

It goes like this in my eyes, to much of anything is bad, very bad, you eat to much you get fat, you exerise to much your tissues start to atrophy, you take to much drugs, your bodie and mind go through lots of changes some of them good, some bad, some nuetral. Anythin can be good in moderate amounts just dont over do it.
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It is the most beautiful thing to watch your mind manifest upon the physical realm of reality.

Unless of course your one of those 15% (and I believe that number to be understated).
Have you ever played Russian Roulette with a 6 shot revolver? Of course not, it's fucking dangerous! Well, you have a 1 in 6 chance of shooting yourself = 16.66%. Puts Dr. Jansens number in perspective, huh?
Roches, I agree with your post that MDMA is potentially far more neurotoxic than K... but i don't think that means much to Peyote, K as he deems MDMA as safe as well. I will quote him from another post:
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People get depressed and instead of looking at the real cause, because the national enquirer says "Drugs cause problems" they blame the drug. There is no proof that E causes any long term side effects.
As i said, 100 years ago it would have been blamed on masturbation. In 100 years the idea of "Blaming drugs" will be just as ludicrous to us as blaming masturbation was then.
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That quote comes from this post:
http://www2.bluelight.ru/ubb/Forum37/HTML/000115.html
Furthermore, your twisting of Jansen's findings is once again rubbish. Did you care to mention that the researcher who conducted the primate studies stated that he felt the monkeys were too young to show the damage that was seen in the mice studies? NOPE... you wouldn't do that, even though you're aware of it... because then you'd be a responsible member of the Bluelight community.
You would have people believe that drugs that have not been tested in long term human trials is SAFE. That is bogus, and won't be tolerated.
Check your email.
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"[The feeling of doing DMT] is as though one had been struck by noetic lightning. The ordinary world is almost instantaneously replaced, not only with a hallucination, but a hallucination whose alien character is it's utter alienness. Nothing in this world can prepare one for the impressions that fill your mind when you enter the DMT sensorium."
Load Universe into Cannon...
Aim at Brain...
Fire!
[This message has been edited by Sebastians_ghost (edited 16 October 2001).]

ravery statement there.. (k9unit)
it's usually wrong to apply the conceptual rules and experiences of everyday life to science and medicine.
but i'll let you get away with it, because the analogy works nicely with a modification:
if you eat too much lettuce or celery or carrots or something, you won't get fat. in some cases *ever*, because there are a few foods that take more energy to digest than they contain.
but if you eat too much, oh, fries, or mayo or whipped cream, you get fat.
ketamine is like carrots.
MDMA is a plurry double big mac with extra cheese and bacon.
only big macs have never shown to cause weight increase if you eat 6 of them.
this is not to say that ketamine is totally safe; there are some people who will chase after a carrot forever if you hold it in front of their nose, right?
ketamine is, for some people, highly addictive. i know someone who's done less than a gram of it who claims to fiend for it. my claims are, unfortunately, based on anecdotal evidence, but it seems that some people will become serious K-heads and some just won't like it.
out of those who do like it, a small number will end up turning into the kind of ketamachine i once was - and i've noticed some seriously negative effects from that.
again, that's anecdotal even if it's personal, and i can't conclusively say that ketamine will induce verbal difficulties and paranoia based on that alone.

Again seb, i don't "believe" anything. I look at the evidence and draw conclusions from it. At the moment there is no evidence to suggest K is neurotoxic in humans. What more is there to say?
You consider if a drug harms a rats brain it must harm a humans. Sounds like common sense until you know the differences between species brains and a drug like Ketamines effect on them. Apply science to it and your arguments fall apart.
Jansen also qoutes studies where people who have taken E over 1000 times show no evidence of brain damage, depression etc.
Don't "believe" ANYTHING. Look at the evidence instead.