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atx1
11-06-2011, 02:40
I've heard so many different routes of administration, and everything seems so subjective and wishy-washy with this stuff. Here's the deal. I have four different varities at my disposal, all powdered leaf. No extract, none of this 10,000,000X bullshit, no resin..... just plain crushed leaf. I figure if it's going to work, it's going to work in its natural form.

So what are my options guys? I've heard Mitragynine is soluble in water, so intuitively, I think tea. The method I'd guess would be to run some scalding water from the tap, introduce about 10 grams or so of powder, stir, steep until water cools, then drink - leaf and all.

Also, is Mitragynine alcohol soluble? If so, wouldn't a butane or hexane extraction be feasable?

Thanks,
ATX :D

mcgrCONTIN
11-06-2011, 04:30
The tea would probably work, but i'd reccomend not using SCALDING or boiling water for it, considering heat i think destroys many opiate molecules, so you wouldnt wanna waste any of the good stuff.

A hexane extraction would be feasible, but is not generally done because hexane is dangerous and youd need to evaporate ALL of it to be sure you werent ingesting/snorting/smoking any hexane which would undoubtedly be very bad for you

EDIT: What i decided after thinking more about it, what i would do would be do dissolve all the mitraginine in warm water for a long time toget all the good stuff in solution, filter out the plant product, evap the water, scrape up the mit, and then sniff the resulting powder. That way you dont have to extract using any harmful substances.

burn out
11-06-2011, 05:17
Mix the powder into some water, stir or shake it and then drink it. it's very simple and effective and there is no need to make tea although you can always experiment with that if you like. The dose is far more important than the method of administration when it comes to kratom and it is a difficult drug to dose because more is not necessarily better. I'd often end up taking too much one time, then over compensating and taking too little the next. It's a great high when you hit the sweet spot though.

Overall, I give kratom a C rating though. It gives me a hangover very similar to alcohol as well as causing scary hallucinations/dreams when you try to go to sleep. And it tastes horrible. I am so glad switched from kratom to heroin.

atx1
11-06-2011, 09:03
MCGR-That's a good idea (evap alkaloids), I'll try that and write up a report for you guys.

burnout- I completely understand, I would coose brown as well. Unfortunately, I've wrestled with that beast for years and just recently managed to get over it. I respect your opinion, but it just isn't for me anymore. I have too many problems saying no.

Thorz
11-06-2011, 09:15
Buy a Cap-M-Quik.

atx1
11-06-2011, 11:06
Good idea.

For real though, what's the deal on making an extract with this stuff? Would a safe solvent be a good idea? I know that QWISO makes some "eh...alright" hash oil. What about kratom? How would I extract just the alkaloids in a smokable or tincture form?

atx1
11-06-2011, 16:53
opiates- I've been giving it a go for a few weeks now. The first few times were with those store-bought extracts and shots with little results. But, I could see the potential and I never give up on a new, interesting compound. Then I discovered a wonderful local herbal nursery which deals in kratom, mimosa, b. caapi, valerian, skullcap, etc...(this can't be sourcing, can it?). Anyway, I picked up a few different varities so I could pin down my favorite. Already have reports written up for two of them. I'll post them in this section if you're interested.

As far as that little experiment goes - I'll try it. It'll just take a bit, seeing as how you can't simply boil the water away. But summer in Texas tends to evaporate water pretty quickly 8), so we've got that working for us. From what I've read, 9-methoxy-corynantheidine, the good stuff - is soluble in alcohol, so we'll run a quick little acetone wash later on this evening and see if we can't come up with someting fun :).

Also, I've heard that kratom contains trace amounts of 7-hydroxy-mitragynine. This compound is supposedly more potent than morphine by the order or 17X or so. Here's the interesting thing: The first attachment is 9-methoxy-corynanthenidine. The second one is 7-hydroxymitragynine. Anybody else see the similarities? Last one to formulate a conversion is a rotten egg! :p

To answer your question opiates - I'll post it in a separate thread.

Cane2theLeft
11-06-2011, 18:03
^ please do so in the trip reports forum (feel free to link in this thread or the kratom mega thread though) - trip reports don't belong in OD and its why we have the TR forum ;)

I was initially going to close this and direct you to the main kratom thread but since the discussion has shifted toward extraction, I'll leave this separate (and add that word to the title for future search purposes). Hopefully everyone is good with this, PM me otherwise :)

atx1
11-06-2011, 19:01
Oh right on - thanks man. Would posting the results of a quickwash be considered synthesis? Thanks for your patience :)

Vriess
12-06-2011, 07:26
I tend to think just ingesting the powder gives better effects than boiling it.

atx1
12-06-2011, 07:29
^Cool, I'll try that out. I suppose I'm just biased against it given my experience with store-bought powdered caps, but it deserves another shot. Have you ever tried extraction? Just trying to get advice before I potentially waste othewise fantastic kratom.

amapola
12-06-2011, 18:35
Clearly any sort of extraction (especially hot water) is going to get a lot less alkaloids into your body than just eating the raw material. The only reason to do one would be to try and slightly increase the speed of onset (not really that big a deal when it comes to kratom I would think) otherwise it is purely for convenience in not having to ingest large amounts of plant matter.

From The Kratom Thread (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=540581)

Hey guys. Just did some research on extraction and made this little write-up. Posted in another thread previously but though I'd add it to the big one.
------------------------------------
The strong opioid effects of kratom are caused by a complex combination of alkaloids present in the plant. The most important is 7-hydroxymitragynine (7-OH-m) which has been shown to be stronger than morphine by at least a factor of 10. Pseudoindoxyl mitragynine is three fold stronger than 7-OH-m, but is not present in large enough amounts to be considered, and mitragynine, though by far the most abundant alkaloid, is merely similar in strength to morphine and any effects are likely overshadowed by the more powerful 7-OH-m. (Takayama et al, 2002)

A study was undertaken by Kikura-Hanajiri et al to present a method of determining the alkaloid content of commercially available kratom products. Part of this method included the optimal extraction of the alkaloids from the plant matter. The extraction somewhat focused on 7-OH-m as it was considered the best indicator of potential for abuse. The final extraction procedure is as follows.

Step 1: grind the kratom into as fine a powder as possible
Step 2: add kratom to 80% methanol solution
Step 3: mix solution for several hours (ultrasonification)
Step 4: store at room temperature overnight
Step 5: filter solution (centrifuge)

Some parts of this procedure are commonsense, for example the finer the powder the better and there is no real disadvantage to mixing for longer periods of time. The most important part is the choice of 80% methanol for the solvent. Regarding the solvent chemical, ethanol, methanol and acetonitrile were all tested with methanol clearly being the best choice. Due to methanol's toxicity, it is worthwhile to mention that ethanol was a third less effective than methanol.
As for the methanol concentration, it was found that the amount of 7-OH-m extracted at 80% was double that extracted at 100% and also double that extracted at 50%. Interestingly the mitragynine extracted was the same for all concentrations in that range. (Kikura-Hanajiri et al, 2009)

In summary if you are attempting to do an extraction on kratom do so with a 70-80 percent methanol solution.

REFERENCES

Simultaneous analysis of mitragynine, 7-hydroxymitragynine, and other alkaloids in the psychotropic plant “kratom” (Mitragyna speciosa) by LC-ESI-MS
Kikura-Hanajiri et al
Forensic Toxicology (2009)
accessed Feb/2011: http://www.springerlink.com/content/y81p24x5u1x00962/

Studies on the Synthesis and Opioid Agonistic Activities of Mitragynine-Related Indole Alkaloids: Discovery of Opioid Agonists Structurally Different from Other Opioid Ligands
Takayama et al
Journal of Medicinal Chemistry (2002)
accessed Feb/2011: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jm010576e

thurston
12-06-2011, 19:06
I get a single serving bottle of oj, take a drink to make room, dump in my dose of powder the shake to hell out of it. Once its mixed up good I just drink it, shaking between drinks to keep it mixed. Tastes like gritty oj not bad at all.

Whipped Dream
21-06-2011, 17:58
Another stoopid question (mainly directed towards Amapola):

After extracting with an 80% methanol solution, you don't just drink that down right? That's a shitload of alcohol even for seasoned drinkers. So I guess the question then is...how to get rid of all the methanol (or at least significantly decrease it).

I'm intrigued by this extraction method, and would like to give it a try.

sekio
21-06-2011, 18:24
Hell no. Methanol is highly toxic and you should never drink it in any amount unless you like blindness, among other things. If you do, make sure to consume a whole bunch of ethanol as it may save your life...

You'd probably do the extraction in 80% MeOH and then evaporate it (and the 20% water) off under vaccuum. Remember, most extractions in the literature are fone in labs, not at home.

Whipped Dream
21-06-2011, 18:30
Hell no. Methanol is highly toxic and you should never drink it in any amount unless you like blindness, among other things. If you do, make sure to consume a whole bunch of ethanol as it may save your life...

You'd probably do the extraction in 80% MeOH and then evaporate it (and the 20% water) off under vaccuum. Remember, most extractions in the literature are fone in labs, not at home.

D'oh! Hence the reason why it was a stoopid question...got my methanols and ethanols mixed up....

Soooo....evaporation huh?

Whipped Dream
21-06-2011, 19:42
A friend of mine is the chief chemist here at my work. I asked him about the methanol extraction problem. Here's his take:

Methanol is definitely a superior solvent, but the problem is getting rid of ALL of the methanol in an application where the final product will be directly ingested. There are several ways of getting rid of the methanol, including evaporating in a vacuum, as well as boiling. Boiling is the worst option as it may destroy the molecule you are trying to isolate. Evaporating is probably the best option, HOWEVER - you can never get rid of ALL of the methanol in the evaporation process. There will always be some residual. That said, he recommends extracting with ethanol. It may not be the best solvent, but it won't make you blind and crazy either.

Oxide
21-06-2011, 21:12
Ethanol is certainly the safest solvent to use, since you'll probably be playing it by ear the first time around and you'll be eager to try your new concoction once the extraction is completed.

I'd say ethanol is the way to go for doing a kratom extraction at home.

amapola
22-06-2011, 03:42
A friend of mine is the chief chemist here at my work. I asked him about the methanol extraction problem. Here's his take:

Methanol is definitely a superior solvent, but the problem is getting rid of ALL of the methanol in an application where the final product will be directly ingested. There are several ways of getting rid of the methanol, including evaporating in a vacuum, as well as boiling. Boiling is the worst option as it may destroy the molecule you are trying to isolate. Evaporating is probably the best option, HOWEVER - you can never get rid of ALL of the methanol in the evaporation process. There will always be some residual. That said, he recommends extracting with ethanol. It may not be the best solvent, but it won't make you blind and crazy either.
Tincture sounds like a good plan :)

Zenethylamine
24-06-2011, 04:56
Do you like hot chocolate?

Just put the powder in a cup with some nesquik or hot chocolate powder and add hot water and maybe some milk. Tastes just like hot chocolate. Don't forget to stir.

I don't think that trying to put it in capsules would make sense. You'd need to eat a lot of capsules, and it would be a bitch.

anterrabae
24-06-2011, 11:53
i believe encapsulating it by hand is not too hard. if anyone wants, i can elaborate on how to do this.

i recently encapsulated 15 capsules of various herbs, and it only took like 15-20 minutes. I used a coffee grinder to grind the dried herbs. a LOT went in the capsules - more than i ever toss-washed


This method worked perfectly. Just get some gelatin capsules, they hold a lot more than you'd think.

ErgicMergic
24-06-2011, 22:21
If you can stomach the taste of a quick Toss n Wash, I think that would be your best bet.

<<ellisd>>
24-06-2011, 23:05
Does anyone/everyone find that when ingesting capsules that the effects are more sedating rather then an initial stimulating buzz with Toss n' Wash?