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  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

that whizzy smell..

lsd303

lsd303

Bluelighter
Joined
May 23, 2001
Messages
773
(Again, tried searching & got 100 threads to trawl through - fuckit.)
For as far back as I can remember, virtually every time I've had top-grade whizz it's always had what I refer to as 'meth smell' - most of you will know what I'm talking about.
The thing is, if you look up 'methamphetamine hydrochloride' in a pharmacuitacl text, it lists the drug as having no odor.
So - what stumps me is that whenever (not often!) I get hold of whizz good enough to be called awesome, it's had this chemically 'meth smell'.. and usually the stronger the smell, the more potent the effects.
If pure meth's supposed to be odorless, anyone know what chem might be responsible for leaving behind its smell in the finished product?
 
i agree.
pure amphetamines are odourless(or would be)
the smelliest meth is (nearly)always the best, even though the smell is coming from impurities in the meth, it does seem to give more kick.
As to what it is you can smell? who knows, a lot of different SHIT you don't want to know is in there, really.
 
The explanation is pretty simple.
Due to the state of meth production, especially in this country, we will virtually never, not in our wildest dreams, come into contact with close to 100%, impurity free gear.
The strong stuff you describe smells as it is not greatly altered since coming from the cook. Its terribly produced, but its strong. The impurities are in there and many of them stink to high heaven.
The weaker stuff is by and large often still this same product only CUT DOWN. Hence its smell is significantly reduced by the high amounts of glucose or epsom salts or something else it is mixed with. Of course as the concentration of drug is decreased, its potency is too.
The smells could be from many substances, which are often dependent on the route which has been employed. Some of the chemicals which could be in there include:
Benzaldehyde; smells very nutty if i do remember; almonds or pistacios.
Formic acid; dead ants
P2P; precursor to DL-meth AND amphetamine; and the ulimate chemical for large scale manufacture
Perhaps some ammonia dissolved up in some water which is hanging tight in the crystalline matrix.
Any number of impurities which may be created in the reaction which have significant smells. Ketone compounds can have strong odours.
(Phase_dancer would be best to maybe identify some of these)
But the major culprit is likely to be SOLVENTS left in the product.
Chemistry professors the world over would be disgusted with such a poor effort in isolating the product made, but unfortunately illicit drug manufacturers arent marked on their efforts.
When the methamphetamine is synthesised it is made into its WATER-INSOLUBLE form - the freebase.
A water-insoluble solvent is then used to EXTRACT the meth from the mixture. This may be diethyl-ether(enormously flammable, volatile), dichloromethane(carcinogenic) or most commonly toluene - in paints of course. (other dodgier solvents could even be employed (petrol, turps, u name it) if these ones could not be sourced)
Acid (e.g hydrochloric or sulphuric) is then added to the mixture whether dripped in or gassed (hydrogen chloride gas only) in and it reacts with the methamphetamine freebase to make the powdered salt we all know and love (this is now water soluble). It immediately forms crystals in the solution and falls to the bottom of the solvent.
Obviously now the powder must be separated from the solvent and ALL the solvent removed. Does this happen...often it does NOT!
Waxy residues, stinky pastes etc will often have solvents like toluene bound up within all the powder due to the powder not being washed, purified and dried enough.
And if u were a greedy chemist, why would you? Any solvents or water left in the mixture greatly adds to the weight of your product, even though that added weight is anything from useless to a potential danger for anyone consuming it.
The volatility of such solvents can also explain how even small amounts of these can make the product smell greatly.
But here's an idea: next time u get some of this stinking, "awesome" gear, try drying it out overnight in a bowl. Not only will it often look sufficiently different, i hazard a guess much of the smell would have dissipated too.
 
i agree with the fact that most gear that really stinks and is awesome is just not cut down as bad as less smelling gear.
i had some gear a little while ago that smelt like raw prawns that were 2 days old!! it sweated and the next day stunk like piss. was a weird feeling aswell, a lot like ephedrine... sweating, head buzzing like mad but not a normal "wizz" feel. it tested on Xtreme tester as being Meth.
any ideas what that might of been(the smell)
cheers
DiSturBeD
 
i had some gear a little while ago that smelt like raw prawns that were 2 days old!! it sweated and the next day stunk like piss.
Prob just residue from the biker's girlfriends bathtub it was made in...
BT ;)
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If every user knew what constituted clean speed, producers may be coerced into learning how to produce a cleaner product. Unfortunately the opposite usually prevails. Many users associate a strong odour with quality. Like those things producing the smells, this is utter crap.
Most speed in Australia has up till now been made from pseudoephedrine. Theoretically this can be done via any one of several syntheses. However, only a few methods are usually reported by forensics in Australia, and one in particular is definitely the most common. The chemicals required can be obtained from a variety of pharmaceutical, agricultural and industrial sources, but often require further adjustment before using.
Although pure Meth hydrochloride (HCL) has no smell, the freebase does. Pseudoephedrine HCL does have some smell, as does its freebase form.
As Biscuit has said, much of the gooey muck sold as pure (or base) is an impure mixture of meth, pseudoephedrine, tablet dyes, side reaction impurities, reaction chemicals and solvents.
From a pseudo procedure (Rhodium):
…Take a little wiff of the smoke, you'll notice that it'll take your breath away. Don't worry about dying from this, it's O.K., just smells bad……
…There are about three distinct smell that let you know it converted. If you pay attention in the beginning to the smell, you notice the difference and it's very noticeable…..
If done correctly [Ed: meaning the entire procedure], you could have a 90% yield, but for many and new beginners the yield is usually around 35-40%. There are many tricks and little secrets that are involved that one can possess and learn as they do this.
As the extraction methods and solvents are fairly non-selective, without distillation, the unreacted pseudoephedrine passes through with the methamphetamine, and of course many side reaction products which freebase up and salt up in the same manner will also slip through.
As mentioned in the quote, there are tricks.
Experienced, educated and conscientious cooks would probably have a fairly good product following reduction. Freebase washings/extractions would be followed by formation of the salt, and at least three further extractions/ washes and recrystallisations. From the look of some of the stuff I’ve been shown, I’m doubtful 1 wash/ recrystallisation was even done :p
It is important to note that even clear looking “base” can smell and non-smelling crystal can still contain impurities. Although purer product is obtainable by refining techniques and increasing the number of washes, each successive wash will lose some of the desired amine, so many don’t bother (except for personal maybe).
Biscuit mentioned ketones. They usually do have a smell (some are terrible), and many are toxic. Think of nail polish remover or fiberglass hardener. Ketones can also react with themselves in certain conditions. These products can further condense with the starting compounds and produce several nasty, toxic compounds. Some of these condensed compounds are reported in the common pseudo -> meth synthesis.
Ketones can be formed during this synthesis through the formation of aziridines, which decompose and form Propiophenone and phenyl-2-propanone (P2P), both ketones. I’ve never smelt P2P, but Propiophenone I have. I remember it being sharp and unpleasant. Although these ketones are regarded as toxic, aziridines are often very toxic compounds. As they are produced, these ketones (and aldehydes from aziridines) react and produce compounds such as 1,3-dimethyl-2-phenylnaphthalene. Phenylnaphthalenes are often very toxic compounds and are likely to smell
Impurities, in greater or lesser amounts, occur in every batch of speed out there. To put this statement in perspective, even many pharmaceuticals contain very tiny amounts of impurities. Forensics use powerful analysis tools to identify specific batches and quality control labs monitor product integrity when stored under various conditions. To ensure an old tablet won’t kill you through impurities reacting over time, these tests are even performed on products which have greatly exceeded their use by date.
The same tools are applied to identifying methods used in clandestine labs and to tie in seizures to the source. In future, due to markers placed in pseudo which will pass through washes, distillation etc, seizures will be traceable to the pharmacist where the pseudo was purchased. As it is now required that the purchaser signs for pseudo, any seizure will now implicate the shopper’s involvement in manufacturing.
I see this widely accessed source for pseudo to be in its final days. As usual, the alternatives are likely to present more contamination problems, but that’s another story.
Click to expand...
 
I’m sure Formic acid wouldn’t be produced by the commonly performed reduction of pseudoephedrine. It is known as an impurity in the Leuckart reaction of benzaldehyde with formamide or ammonium formate, but this reaction is rarely used in Australia. It has been noted however.
These are the reported contaminants found in RP/I2 reduction of ephedrine. From talk with analytical chemists, these are also applicable to the method most often used throughout Australia
meth impurities
Windahl et al., Investigation of the Impurities Found in Methamphetamine Synthesised from Pseudoephedrine by Reduction with Hydriodic Acid and Red Phosphorus. Forensic Sci. International, 76, 97-114 (1995), also found the diastereoisomers of N-methyl-N-(alpha-methylphenethyl)amino-1-phenyl-2-propanone and the cis-cinnamoyl derivative of methamphetamine to be present in the reaction mixture.
If the hydriodic acid/red phosphorus reaction is incomplete, ephedrine HI or pseudoephedrine HI will also be present.
more impurities
Benzyl Methyl Ketone
1,2-Dimethyl-3-phenylaziridine
1-Phenyl-2-methylaminopropanone
Ephedrine
1-Chloro-1-phenyl-2-methylaminopropane
[Edit: I have left out those mentioned in the post above]
[ 26 February 2003: Message edited by: phase_dancer ]
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That above point about HI/RP reduction is very pertinent.
I've also read that the intermediate iodoephedrine is also found quite often.
Phase_dancer: do you agree that such a compound could have at least PNS effects and possibly CNS effects?
Considering ordinary ephedrine is to an extent pyschoactive, surely replacing a hydroxyl group with an iodide group would increase its effect, not decrease it?
(unless of course the relative immense size of the I group prevents activity?)
[ 27 February 2003: Message edited by: Biscuit ]
 
For months I had been smelling that formic acid smell around my neigbourhood late at night, I told one of my friends whilst staggering home from a bender one evening that I could smell 'meth' and I thought someone was cooking locally.
He said I was mad and it was'nt a bake.
About a month ago I saw on the news a street not too far away from mine had been shut down and the neighbours evacuated as a lab had been busted :|
I knew I was right :D
 
Yes Biscuit idoephedrine has been found if reaction is not run to completion. Its probably what was referred to above as ephedrine HI, and I'm sure it would be active as you stated.
Interestingly, I heard the afore mentioned analyst state he had never seen or been able to produce aziridines via the hypo/I2 method. He concluded that idoaziridine is formed - but only during the HPLC injection process of the impure product. He doubted it was produced at all during the reaction, despite other papers reporting the contrary.
 
Given that lots of the stuff we see has " that whizzy smell " and that that smell is not necessarily an indicator of strength or purity, are there any features which might point to greater strength or purity? Colour, consistency, anything like that?
 
As said, absence of smell does not necessarily indicate a pure product as some impurities have little or no smell. But in attempting to assess the CARE and SKILL in manufacture, a general guide to RELATIVE quality is:
==================== Crystal (rock, shards, crushed etc)
No smell. This indicates time has been taken to wash out impurities and evaporate solvents.
Crystal should look white/clear as a rock, & clear or slightly white as crushed crystals
A small amount of crystal left out in the air (depending on humidity levels) should slowly turn to a gooey viscous liquid. (Deliquescence)
Taste should VERY bitter with no other discernable taste i.e. bitterness should overpower any other "chemical" taste.
======================== Paste (base, goo etc)
If the only meth obtainable is paste, then generally the clearer the better, although it may be whitish in colour and still be reasonably pure. This product should crystallize if dried (UTSE to find methods of drying) with crystals looking and tasting similar to that described above.
Paste may indicate absorption of moisture, but commonly it’s because of solvents having not been evaporated. This also adds weight and is often left in on purpose to increase profits.
========================
As you seem to be aware, none of the above indicates whether or not a product contains high levels of nasty "invisible" compounds. These compounds are present to some extent in all meth.
Even in the purest form, there is no such thing as good meth. Methamphetamine is no longer used in medicine because it not considered to posses any medical value, mainly because psychosis and related side affects are so common with prolonged or excessive use. Which of course are a couple of the main reasons it is prohibited nearly everywhere.
 
Can report from first expeience that quality meth has no odor. It is also clear and crystaline, looks almost like shards of broken glass. It crushes into a fine pure white powder and was the bomb, no massive burn, no horrible taste in the back of the throat for hours. Shame I had to go to Japan to first experience it, never seen anything like it back home, a real treat but very expensive.
 
phase_dancer: aziridines, aldehydes and ketones are usually products of oxidation... the aziridines and aldehydes are the unwanted ones of course, aziridines being the most toxic ones with a sickly sweet smell (reportedly)... meth is a product of a *reduction* of ephedrine
[ 03 March 2003: Message edited by: Runner ]
 
Runner, I understand that aziridines, aldehydes etc. are usually products of oxidation and not halogen/reduction, and these claims were puzzling until the following was considered.
The following except from the 1st link in my earlier post.
The halo compound may undergo an internal substitution reaction, whereby nitrogen replaces iodine to give an aziridine, which can decompose to give the compounds A (N-methylbenzylamine), B (benzaldehyde), C (propiophenone) and D (phenyl-2-propanone). Due to the extreme acidity of the reaction mixture, only routes C and D are viable considerations. The protonated nitrogen of the aziridine controls retro ring-opening to produce an zwitterion intermediate. The rational choice of route D, based on the highly favored zwitterion intermediate with resonance overlap to the aromatic ring, is borne out with experimental fact. The product of retro ring-opening, followed by hydrolysis of 1,2-dimethyl- phenyl-aziridine is P-2-P [6]. Thus, P-2-P is a common impurity in these clandestine laboratory preparations of (+)methamphetamine. This anomaly has puzzled a number of forensic investigators where the clandestine synthesis was known to start from ephedrine and not the popular route P-2-P/methylamine Schiff base reduction via aluminium foil.
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phase_dancer: interesting... i guess you learn something every day! I'd be very interested in smelling P2P one day, because that would certainly explain the whizzy smell that everyone knows doesn't quite smell exactly like any solvent we know...
That of course would let us know straight away which route was taken in the preparation presuming the gear hasn't been cleaned. Whizzy smell = acidic reduction of ephedrine, no smell or another solvent = alkiline reduction.
 
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