Re-dosing on GHB and 1,4B

I've heard several opinions on this, and wanted to throw it open.
I've heard that taking more than 2 doses of G/14B in a night is dangerous.
I've heard that you can keep dosing every 2 hours for as long as you want.
I've heard that 4 doses is the limit.
What's the verdict people?
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MDMA-4-ALL (And some safety info on G please)

Perhaps we need to carefully define some parameters for this discussion?
Firstly, what is meant by the term 'limit'? Probably we should define the limit we're speaking about. AFAIK there's no magic cut-off dose after which GHB/1,4B turns your liver into a pumpkin, however there are more and less risky dose ranges
Secondly, 'dangerous'? Are we looking at danger due to acute toxicity, danger from overdose, danger from combinations with other drugs... or danger from embarrassment or pregnancy? Taking any amount of GHB/1,4B could be construed as dangerous behaviour, however I gather that in this case we will discuss 'dangerous levels of substance causing health problems'.
In my experience, I'd say that this question is similar to asking "What's the limit of alcohol I can drink in a night?"... your mileage may vary, but there are limits beyond which most people would be fucked, without additional chemical support. The differences arise from people's metabolic rates, their tolerance, the concentration of substance they take, and how accustomed they are to being really wasted on that substance.
I've gone further, and looked around Erowid at the GHB and 1,4B vaults:
From Erowid's GHB Vault:

As with many substances, regular users or those with a naturally high tolerance to GHB may require somewhat higher doses for the same effects.
GHB generally comes either in pure powder form, or mixed into water. In powder form, measuring a dose isfairly straighforward. In liquid form, GHB comes in a wide variety of concentrations with a single dose ranging from a few drops to a full glass. If you don't know the concentration of your liquid GHB, be extremely careful. There is no way, without testing, to determine its strength. Don't assume anything. Carefully check the concentration with your source before calculating your dosage.
GHB is extremely dose sensitive. Each person has a different response to each dose level. To safely verify the correct dosage, ALWAYS START LOW.
--8<-- snip --8<--
Taking GHB too often can cause short term disruptions in your brain chemistry (increases dopamine production). These effects are accumulative. Increased dopamine production can cause unpleasant side effects for days afterward. If you feel sluggish a day after using GHB, you should reduce your consumption to allow your body to recover.
Note that by redosing more often, you risk developing a real GHB addiction, which will bite back when you come off the substance with withdrawal symptoms.
Observations by a professional couple on daily use of ghb over an extended period of time from Erowid's Experience Vaults.
I know that sometimes when people are concerned that they're taking too much of something or are taking it too often, there's a temptation to look for stories from other people who take more, so one can rationalise further dose increases. I'm sure we've all said to ourselves something to the effect of "they take 2x my dose, and they seem ok, so I'm alright there's nothing to worry about..." instead of going with intuition and reducing the dose. If you ARE worried about your intake, because you've noticed wierd health problems or an increase in the ratio of bad to good side-effects, you can always reduce your dose or stop taking the drug entirely.
Probably the best policy is to wait 2 hours before redosing (a full stomach slows down the absorption, watch out for this when taking new GHB/1,4B... you can be tricked into taking a 'top up' dose WAY too soon by a big dinner). NEVER use alcohol or other depressants with GHB/1,4B. Listen to your body.
Hope that helps. Read more in the GHB FAQ. Additionally you may SEARCH Bluelight using the search link, or from the Aus Discussion Forum.
BigTrancer

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BT is indeed the bomb. Thanks for the info BT.
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MDMA-4-ALL (And some careful GHB doses for me)

i have another questions about the 1,4 B dosing...
A foaf is a regular drinker, not like a drunkard or anything, and for the first couple of times after trying 1,4b he didn't feel anything - on an empty stomach as well. This person kept upping the dose and finally felt something - after 9ml (5ml, then 4ml 30min later)! What the? I think it's fair to assume that a regular dose for most ppl would be from 1.5-3.5 so why is it that this person can have so much and not fall over?
your thoughts are appreciated...
/edit
just wanted to add something to the above topic:
iin my experience, repeated redosing can be maximised by snacking on chips/ junk food bought from the local servo, drinking heaps of juices and leaving at least a 2-2.5h gap between doses. 7 doses is my PB (over the course of 18hrs) but have heard others do much more without passing out/ being ill. And as BT says - listen to ur body and always err on the side of caution - those top ups have a way of sneaking up on you.
[ 02 March 2003: Message edited by: Milkybar ]

It could be explained as differing concentrations of G/1,4 that cause the effects you describe. Unless you are there when the dilute is mixed up from pure concentrate you have to be VERY careful with dosing. And even then you should treat this chem with a lot of respect.
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MDMA-4-ALL (And care with G/1,4 for us all)

It should also be remembered that 1,4b needs to be metabolized in the liver into GHB before it can have any effect. Hence it takes longer than GHB to kick in and tends to have a more gradual build up. So if one is used to GHB and then takes 1,4bd unaware or uninformed, they might think that it is doing nothing and redose. Clearly this can be a dangerous situation.

hm, perhaps I didn't explain it properly...
he tried 1,4b on a number of different occasions - one time 3ml, the next week 4ml, the next week 5ml and so on - being aware all the while of the danger of ODing. The 1,4b was from exactly the same bottle as everyone else's. He was starting to think we were all having him on. The only reason we can come up with for his tolerance is that he has a 'super' liver that metobolizes it faster or more efficiently as I've never heard of a case where someone has had 9 ml (while everyone is having 2.5) in the space of an hour and only say 'I kinda feel something...'

OK, I'd like to think of myself as pretty experienced with this drug by now. I do it very regularly (daily) for long periods of time (I've had a sleeping disorder since I was 16), then will drop back for a little while. I've never, ever OD'd. Sure, I've gone to sleep, but I've never been unrousable, never anywhere close to needing medical attention. There's a very good reason for this. It's not because I'm a champion, or a hero, or can handle my drugs better than everyone else. It's because I'm not a moron. THIS DRUG IS EXCEPTIONALLY DANGEROUS AND CAN KILL YOU. So treat it with some fucking respect.
/end soapbox
I've found a good dose is 0.028ml/kilogram of accepted concentrated mixture. This equates to around a 13ml dose of accepted diluted mixture for my 60Kg girlfriend and an 18ml dose for me (80Kg). So always keep that in mind when dosing, that body weight is EXTREMELY important, and you should alter you dose accordingly.
Next, the levels above are just what I've noticed to be common amongst most people, but is by no means written law. I've seen some people get happily wasted off 5mls of dilute, and some who guzzle 30mls to get the desired affect. When starting out with this drug, the old addage holds true: you can always have more, but you can never have less.
Thirdly, redosing. I have a personal time line of around once every 90 minutes, but I am a regular user and can recognise if I'm already too wasted to have more. I'd advise once every 2 hours as BT said, once you have your levels set out. When starting out, or if you're an infrequent user, baby steps are advised. Start out small, and if nothing after an hour, redose with half as much. Keep it small, and be careful when choosing how much to redose by, as a small jump in amount, can cause a big jump in affects. Also, NEVER redose within the hour. Very often I've been sitting around waiting for it to kick in, then whilst considering having a second dose 45 minutes or so later, having it kick in with a vengence.
As for many doses in a night, I can't really answer that with any medical certainty, all I can say is my personal opinions of how I feel after a binge. I'm assuming most people are taking 1,4b as GHB has been very rare AFAIK in this country in the last 18 months. From what I can understand, this stuff takes a pretty heavy toll on your liver, so it's good to keep that in mind when drinking. I'd normally have 1-3 doses in a regular night, depending on how tired I am, how much trouble I'm having sleeping, how anxious I am etc. After several months of this I've noticed I get stomach pains (I think it's liver), which go away soon after stopping the nightly dosing. Ditto if I binge and have a lot over a weekend, I'll feel a bit average monday/tuesday in the belly, but then I'll be fine. I've noticed the better you eat, the better you feel, so avoid acidic foods and junk food. When I go out, 10-20 doses in a weekend is quite common for me (every 2 hours, depending on whether I party from friday-sunday or just sat nite). Apart from some stomach pains I've mentioned above on monday and tuesday mornings, I've never noticed feeling dodgy from taking this much. This isn't to say it isnt bad for you, but I can vouch it isn't necessarily going to kill you (just stop to think how much damage you'll be causing doing any drug for that long).
Just remember to let plenty of people know what you've had, and how much you've had. It's become quite common amongst my group of friends to announce when we take a dose, that way we can keep an eye on each others doses, and lessens the chance of doing a scattered redose 10 minutes after first dose. This way, it's easier for people to judge if you're just sleeping, or if you need to get some medical help. On that note, if someone passes out on G or 1,4 keep an eye on their breathing, if it seems a bit shallow or restricted, try to wake them up. If they don't respond, making a fist and firmly (not hard) pushing on their sternum (breastbone). If this doesn't wake them up, call an ambulance. Don't play games with this drug, it isn't worth losing a friend of being too scared to call the ambulance or being worried about upsetting them, I know I'd rather have my weekend ended in a hospital than in a morgue.
It's a great drug, use it, have fun, but always respect it, or it will hurt you.

Thanks a lot Anfalicious, you are indeed a fountain of knowledge on the subject... I was hoping you would pipe up, I know your the G-god
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MDMA-4-ALL (And some GHB for Anfalicious please)

Again with a voice of caution:
Know what the liquid is concentrated to. 1.5mil of x might be a dose. 15mil of y might be a dose.
15mil of x is 8-10 times the 'normal' dose.
The mind still boggles that dealers are letting people have G with a dosage of 1.5mils.
General rule for redose:
Redose once every 1.5 hours - with only 2/3rds of the original dosage thats right for you.
eg. If a normal dose is 15mils then redose only on 10mils.
[ 05 March 2003: Message edited by: Soma ]

Werd Soma. I hope I was specific enough when I mentioned my doses.
As for dealers giving people concentrate, I agree completely. My girlfriends been using almost as long as I have, and I've only just started trusting her to dose concentrate on her own, however, I still usually do all hers for her.

I always use concentrate, but only in the company of my girlfriend at home - never out. I don't think there's a problem so long as the user is responsible enough to measure the exact dose (or slightly under as i always do) and that the dealer always informs of the exact concentration.
I tend to dose at 1.5mL spaced around 60-90 minutes apart, probably a max of 5mL. If i've had pills during the night, we may have up to 7mL spaced out over 4 doses. Any more than that and i find the negative effects outweigh the good.
Just another thing I've meant to ask - after falling asleep after having 1,4b - both me and the girl wake up at around the 4 or 5 hour mark (without fail). Does anyone else get this or know why it happens? We wake up and get really restless - i tend to overheat a lot as well. Ideas??
Pls be careful with dosing - after Field Day Bubbles had maybe 0.5-1mL too much on the third dose and became unrousable for an hour. I could physically pick her up and yell at her and she had no recollection of it - after that we ALWAYS underdose now.
mj

(very) Basically, GHB and 1,4B inhibit the release of dopamine in the brain for, funny coincidence, about 4-5hours... after this time, the dopamine is released, just like having a line of speed.
That's why it used to be sold in bottles called "Revital" and stuff, because you get woozy and relax for a bit, then wake up FULL of energy!
BigTrancer

^^^Just curious, do you get a comedown similar to speed after these two other effects? ...getting relaxed then stimulated then...

In my experience, there is no comedown from G or 1,4 (other than the stomach aches mentioned above). It just goes away, which is why it's such a great after pill drug, cos it fills in the gaps whilst ur coming down off pills.

BT: The post 4-5 hour dopamine release mark could explain why we always wake up. Dopamine hits brain - we wake up.
thanks.

And now, instead of being lazy and not including a reference for my comment:
From Erowid GHB Vault - GHB FAQ

The Actions of GHB in the Body
GHB temporarily inhibits the release of dopamine in the brain. This may cause increased dopamine storage, and later increased dopamine release when the GHB influence wears off [Chin and Kreutzer, 1992]. This effect could account for the middle-of-the-night wakings common with use of higher GHB doses, and the general feelings of increased well-being, alertness and arousal the next day.
[...]
Ref: Chin MY, Kreutzer RA and Dyer JE. Acute poisoning from gamma-hydroxybutyrate in California. WEST J MED (United States). 156(4): 380-4, April 1992.
BigTrancer

Click to expand...

yer, damn that increased arousal ;P