Opioids Is it an oddity that Milk Thistle RADICALLY potentiates Oxycodone?

Firstly, it will take at least 100mg of Oxycodone considering current tolerance to start a decent nod. Many potentiators have been tried, and the best results were experienced with the use of Promethazine or Butalbital until recently when Milk Thistle was used.

According to a wide variety of sources, oral Milk Thistle inhibits Cytochrome P-450 3A4 and others by up to nearly 100% depending on amount ingested. I assume this is why potentiation of Oxycodone has been experienced.

Anyways, due to the consumption of various medications, periodic supplementation with Milk Thistle was decided upon to help liver health. Taking 400mg Milk Thistle Standardized 80% Extract 45 minutes before oral consumption of 50mg Oxycodone resulted in effects similar to what would be expected if 100mg Oxcodone was taken. None of the many potentiators previously tried comes remotely close to this level of potentiation.

Has anyone else experienced or heard of this? The reports about Milk Thistle in regards to opiate potentiation are few and far between. It seems that if such extreme/quality results as mentioned above are normal, more reports about Milk Thistle would be around bluelight and the greater internet. Is it truly unusually odd for such radical potentiation effects as described above to be experienced?

Thoughts/Comments/Whatever anyone?


WARNING: If anyone attempts potentiation with Milk Thistle, I recommend using Milk Thistle ONLY to potentiate opioid medications that are NOT combined with other substances (i.e APAP).

EDIT: Please note, I take an enhanced version of Milk Thistle extract which contains soy phospholipids which increase bioavailability of Silymarin. Regular Milk Thistle products and most extracts do not have this.

My first question is, how are you ingesting the 50 or 100 mg? It would take the combination of a few different pills to get those doses. Oh and by oral consumption, do you just take it, chew/suck on it or parachute it?

I have never heard of this. I am impressed it potentiated more than promethazine (one of if not my favorite opiate potentiator).

I am interested to see the responses.

psychopath said:

My first question is, how are you ingesting the 50 or 100 mg? It would take the combination of a few different pills to get those doses.

I have never heard of this. I am impressed it potentiated more than promethazine (one of if not my favorite opiate potentiator).

I am interested to see the responses.

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The Oxycodone is taken orally (parachuted as powder) on an empty stomach. Tums or the store brand equivalent are also used about 30 minutes before the Oxycodone is taken.

I think I may be very sensitive or something to Silymarin (Milk Thistle extract) and that it might inhibit my liver enzymes more than normal. I've read several peer-reviewed articles including some from medical journals and results indicate that major inhibition of cytochrome p-450 enzymes typically only occurs in fairly large doses of Milk Thistle.

psychopath said:

My first question is, how are you ingesting the 50 or 100 mg? It would take the combination of a few different pills to get those doses. Oh and by oral consumption, do you just take it, chew/suck on it or parachute it?

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What is so strange about 50 or 100mg dosages of oxycodone? He could have 10mg oxycodones, or just combining other various IR Oxycodone formulations.

This is interesting though. I am kinda outta commission today in regards to research and stuff so hopefully this can generate a good discussion.

If it does in fact work as well as you say it does, this could definitely help some people I know.

Different preparations and method of consumption could have an effect on the potentiation.

has milk thistle shown to work effictively to potentiate opiates besides oxycodone?

keep talking, you've got my attention.

Well, the procedure I go through is pretty simple. I do the following on a completely or at least mostly empty stomach.

I take between 400mg and 1000mg of Milk Thistle extract (Silybum marianum) (seed) (standardized to contain 80% Silymarin). Approximately 30 minutes later I take a few antacid tablets and about 20-30 minutes after that I parachute 50mg of crushed/powder Oxycodone placed inside a Gelatin capsule. It feels much stronger than 50mg of Oxycodone normally would. I also, have done this with and without Naproxen in my system, and the results are the same either way.

OxyChem said:

Well, the procedure I go through is pretty simple. I do the following on a completely or at least mostly empty stomach.

I take between 400mg and 1000mg of Milk Thistle extract (Silybum marianum) (seed) (standardized to contain 80% Silymarin). Approximately 30 minutes later I take a few antacid tablets and about 20-30 minutes after that I parachute 50mg of crushed/powder Oxycodone placed inside a Gelatin capsule. It feels much stronger than 50mg of Oxycodone normally would. I also, have done this with and without Naproxen in my system, and the results are the same either way.

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I assume you partake precisely the same without the Milk Thistle?

psychopath said:

I assume you partake precisely the same without the Milk Thistle?

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Yes.

psychopath said:

And you have used the same gelatin capsules and antacids throughout as well?

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Yea, everything is the same in terms of the gelatin capsules, antacids, Oxycodone and RoA.

The only difference would be that I don't eat the exact same foods at the exact same times everyday, but I would imagine my food intake wouldn't have any extreme affect in regards to the Milk Thistle potentiation of Oxycodone. But just as an fyi in case it actually does matter, I eat a mostly vegetarian diet and typically consume the same basic foods on a daily basis unless I eat out. I eat out 3 or 4 times a week.

You say between 400mg and 1000mg, that's quite a large window. Do you find the potentiation increases by increasing the dose that high? Have you found an optimal dose?

interesting i might pass this on being that i dont use any more

BrokedownPalace said:

You say between 400mg and 1000mg, that's quite a large window. Do you find the potentiation increases by increasing the dose that high? Have you found an optimal dose?

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I've been experimenting a bit with the amount of Milk Thistle, and it does seem to have better effects when used in closer to the 1000mg range.

The thing that bothers me, is that according to what I've read, significant inhibition of liver enzymes shouldn't start until at least 4500mg (oral) or more is taken. I guess I could be really sensitive or something, I have no idea. I don't have full access to peer-reviewed articles at my current location (just abstracts), but I can post some sources and quotes later on tonight or tomorrow when I have full access to my academic databases. Googling around will return some generic results about linver enzyme inhibition though (i.e http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69303.cfm). No idea if that's a quality source or not, it's simply the first result from my google search haha.

OxyChem said:

I've been experimenting a bit with the amount of Milk Thistle, and it does seem to have better effects when used in closer to the 1000mg range.

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Are you using one of the enhanced formulations?

from wiki here's what it says about the BA:
"Poor water solubility and bioavailability of silymarin led to the development of enhanced formulations. Silipide (trade name Siliphos), a complex of silymarin and phosphatidylcholine (lecithin), is about ten times more bioavailable than silymarin."

A google of Siliphos finds several brands. I'll have to get some since I've always noticed that my Milk Thistle powder never mixes very well...

Hmm interesting have you tried this with any other opiates bexides Oxycodone?

avcpl said:

Are you using one of the enhanced formulations?

from wiki here's what it says about the BA:
"Poor water solubility and bioavailability of silymarin led to the development of enhanced formulations. Silipide (trade name Siliphos), a complex of silymarin and phosphatidylcholine (lecithin), is about ten times more bioavailable than silymarin."

A google of Siliphos finds several brands. I'll have to get some since I've always noticed that my Milk Thistle powder never mixes very well...

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Yea, the kind I use has some sort of soy based phospholipid in it which makes it have greater bioavailability compared with regular Milk Thistle.

The first time I bought Milk Thistle, I got some from the grocery store and it didn't have the increased bioavailability properties. I tried to make tea with it and it wasn't very soluble.

CaPoNe. said:

Hmm interesting have you tried this with any other opiates bexides Oxycodone?

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Unfortunately no. I have only had the opportunity to use Oxycodone with the Milk Thistle.

OxyChem said:

WARNING: If anyone attempts potentiation with Milk Thistle, I recommend using Milk Thistle ONLY to potentiate opioid medications that are NOT combined with other substances (i.e APAP).

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This is interesting since APAP is damaging to the liver but Milk Thistle is primarily marketed for improving liver health!

If I ever had too much APAP and alcohol, I would take Milk Thistle thinking I was doing good, but I was probably doing more harm...


I would imagine that a Cold Water Extraction of hydrocodone would be fine? (even though it doesn't remove all the APAP? or would even a little be too much?)



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avcpl said:

This is interesting since APAP is damaging to the liver but Milk Thistle is primarily marketed for improving liver health!

If I ever had too much APAP and alcohol, I would take Milk Thistle thinking I was doing good, but I was probably doing more harm...


I would imagine that a Cold Water Extraction of hydrocodone would be fine? (even though it doesn't remove all the APAP? or would even a little be too much?)



.

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APAP is metabolized by the same enzymes that Milk Thistle inhibits in larger doses. So, APAP will accumulate to higher levels in your system temporarily if you take Milk Thislte a bit before ingesting APAP. Milk Thistle is amazing for treatment of APAP toxicity although, and is all around amazing for liver health. If you take APAP and wait until it's mostly metabolized, taking some Milk Thistle is great thing to do. I'd have to double check on this following point, but I would imagine that after APAP has gone through phase I metabolism, Milk Thistle is probably excellent to take

The amount of APAP in a CWE solution is typically negligible. You should be fine to take Milk Thistle.