The effect of particular chemical compounds upon us/the rave scene

I am writing in concern of the effect of certain chemical compounds upon us and the rave scene in particular.
This is of course a vast question,however I am wanting to promote some positive discussion in this subject.Harm Reduction purposes.
Funnily one could/may say this is the whole question Bluelight is about summed up in a thread.

My main 2 questions I am asking of the true wisdom here, is
A>(for want of a more concise way of putting forth the question that appeareth on the tip of my tongue so to speak)How is it that alcohol,
that
1.Has been shown to be the biggest destructor of marriage via cause of divorce and therefore an obvious danger to the household(and obviously not just for this matter of great concern.
2. Has medically shown to be an actual solvent of nerve particles.
3.Along with tobacco is the cause of something of the range of 93 to 98 percent of drug deaths in two Australian studies taken in the last ten years
4.Seems to cause aggression,fights and rowdiness at the pubs and clubs.
5.Is said by my instinctual inner voice and common sense not to be drunk
5.Makes people lose control of their physical boddies from a higher perspective and puts them into animal mode,
6.Is a depressant
7.Is then though not given to minors because we know its bad
gets away with the marketing and support of it throughout society!?,
whereas
Ecstacy/Empathy
1.has been shown to be effective in use in family healing and other psychotherapeutical uses and is upon a schedule 1 classification!?
2.Has made me feel so much better than alcohol.
3.Is supported by my inner voice and instinct/feels right to be consumed.
4.Has given us the most beautiful music.
Thankyou God for ecstacy and please wake up the dear fellow people who consume of the alcohol and lie asleep.Please wake them up from their sleep/coma or depressed lives.We are singing from the rave scene singing the most beautiful melodies and these are filtering through the speakers waking them up to PLUR instead of depression as we become the rave planet.
And how pure and gentle is the true innocence of a child whos smile really shines like a star,may we become more childlike in a proper way.The Kandy Kyds are helping to save the planet.
I choose to rave ecstatically and sincerely,not depressed but happy.I don't want alcohol so please don't promote it,it is yucky and just feels wrong, so take it away from us ravers please and give us health products instead.Please don't use this family destroying substance to come near us and please don't use it to make money from.Can't you see how wrong it is to sell alcohol.If you must have alcohol it should be prescribed by a doctor and then obtained from a chemist in a generic packet.
Please sell toys and fun products instead and things that make us happy.
Depression caused by a depressant or freeheartland caused by an empathogen.Why is the choice made hard,is it perhaps the hundredth monkey scenario?
Come to Toyland.
I like being happy and healthy,how about you?
B> How does go/wiz fit into toyland;if it is truly of pure source,clear from negative attributes ,how well does this toyblock fit or are the tweakers doing more harm than good?Is it just the statusand origin that causes the anxiety rather than the actual substance.
Its still within the 12 days of Christmas.If you do know actually what I am on about here and you are a Wiseman or wombman please respond.Otherwise no negative feedback, I just don't need it;I want a positive and healthy clear and concise peaceful response.
Peace be with you and a most joyous and happy 03 be unto thee.
coherence instead of scattered,
on tap instead of off
on my rocker on my tree, on my nut,
completely with it and in of it
together
Shalom.

you seem happy, that's great..
however..
not everyone is a violent or abusive drunk.
i have a friend who is not into drugs but is a big drinker, and a fun and happy and crazy drunk at that.
she is curious, but is afraid of them. we have spoken about xtc and one thing she said that stuck out in my mind is that she is afraid of the unknown.
"you can slowly feel yourself getting drunk, and you can stop drinking if you find that you cant control urself, but with xtc, once it comes on, it comes on, and if you are not enjoying it you cant get out of it until it does its job." was her reasoning (or something to that effect).
ive never been scared of drugs so i dont really understand her fear, but i understand her point.
hope i havnt gone too far off the topic...

My personal suggestion for this debate is that people providing ANY kind of statistic or fact to illustrate their opinion should accompany it with a REFERENCE.
Statements such as "[alcohol has been] medically shown to be an actual solvent of nerve particles"... do NOTHING to prove your point, since there is no reference to facts, or any definition of how this was shown, or in fact what a 'nerve particle' is.
I understand that discussion of alcohol's effect on society can be an emotive issue, but if you can't back up your statements with authoritative facts, don't make them.
BigTrancer

together: your've been taking pills for less that a year? do me a favour and bookmark this thread and come back in two years time, then read your words.

Must agree with CowboyMac, I remember having many of the same sentiments for the first few years of my life with MDMA.
But as you move along you realise what a complex argument it is. Those first flushes of infatuation have produced the same response from most of us and (IMHO) are very eloquently summed up by the lyrics:

they could settle wars with this
if only they will
imagine the worlds leaders on pills
then imagine the mornin' after
all causin' disaster
I can recall a conversation in the early nineties inwhich I said "imagine the politicians on pills"...unfortunately it won't happen
[ 04 January 2003: Message edited by: tranquilo ]

Click to expand...

BT... you uni guys are all the same.
(no reference required.)
why cant someone present their opinion here. it happens in day to day life. its up to the reader to say to themselves... well thats just their opinion and i discount it because... your so anal about this. no one's marking the submissions!! i agree its likely a wild statement you have drawn our attention to, however, i just read it as saying she heard it somewhere... and thats good enough for me. maybe one day ill find some conclusive proof of it, and untill then its just something i heard... didnt hurt me to think about it and is quite plausible and stimulating. if your so fussed about it... research it, and make an argument if it fusses you so... or dont and mark the poster accordingly! :D

i think there was a line in a song "geezer" or something. it was sort of a british song, and had a nice beat. and the line did say something like "imagine if everone was on this, the worlds problmes would be solved. i too thought this at one stage, but like
Cowboymac, tranquilo i agree, you opinion is due to change in time. strange, it does take about 2 years to formulate this kind of thought...
unfortunately i think that people using e to create a feeling which is not there all the time. it would be wonderful to have that pre-peak feeling, where you are feeling good about everything all the time. you would have such a postive attitude within every aspect of life. i beleive that there are certain people who are natuarally closer to that feeling then others and to those people i envy them a little.
however, due to way that e actually works(read other forum posts, sorry, dont know how do do links) it probably not the best idea to be constantly pinging.
[ 04 January 2003: Message edited by: papermate ]

The Lyrics for whoever is interested:
The Streets- Weak Becomes Heroes
Turn left up the street
Nothing but grey concrete and dead beats
Grab something to eat
Maccy D's or KFC
Only one choice in the city
Done voice in my pity now lets get to the nitty gritty
Tune reminds me of my first e
Like unique still sixteen and feelin horny
Point to the sky feel free
A sea of people all equal smiles in front and behind me
Swim in the deep blue sea cornfields sway lazily
All smiles all easy where you from,
what you on and what's your story
Mesmerizing tones risin pianos this is my zone so stop clonin
Pick paper scissors or stone
Coz me and you are same i known
you all my life i don't know your name
The names European Bob sorted anyway
Gonna have dance now see you later please to meet you
Likewise a pleasure
We were just standin there mindin our own
And it went on and on
We all smile we all sing
The weak become heroes then the stairs align
We all sing we all sing all sing
We were just standin there mindin our own
And it went on and on
We all smile we all sing
The weak become heroes then the stairs align
We all sing we all sing all sing
The night slowly fades and goes slow motion
All the commotion becomes floatin emotions
Same piano loops over
Arms wave eyes roll back and jaws fall open
I see in soft focus
Chattin to this bloke in the toilets
Dizzy new heights blinded by the lights
These people are for life its all back to
his place at the end of the night
They could settle wars with this
If only they will imagine the worlds leaders on pills
then imagine the mornin after
Wars causing disaster don't talk to me i don't know ya
But this aint tommorow and for now i still love ya
Hours fly over sail round diamonds
and pearls never seen so many fit girls
Discover new worlds look at my watch can't focus
Last two hours i lost every move fills me with lust
All of life's problems i just shake off
Mad little events happen things map out
and a few blue maddens alight the toilets
Big beefy bouncers out to reveal us geezers on e's
and first timers kids on whizz darlins on
Charlie
All come together for this party
All races many faces from places you never heard of
Where you from what's your name and what you want
Sing to the words flex to the fat one
The tribal drums the sun's risin we all smile we all sing
We were just standin there mindin our own
And it went on and on
We all smile we all sing
The weak become heroes then the stairs align
We all sing we all sing all sing
We were just standin there mindin our own
And it went on and on
We all smile we all sing
The weak become heroes then the stairs align
We all sing we all sing all sing
Then the girl in the café taps me on the shoulder
I realize five years went by I'm older
Memories smoulder winters colder
But that same piano loops over and over and over
The road shines and the rain washes away
The same Chinese takeaway selling shit in a tray
It's dark all round
I walk down same sight same sounds new beats though
Solid concrete under my feet
No surprises no treats the world stands still
as my mind sloshes round
The washing up bowl in my crown
My life's been up and down since i walked from that crowd
We were just standin there mindin our own
And it went on and on
We all smile we all sing
The weak become heroes then the stairs align
We all sing we all sing all sing
We were just standin there mindin our own
And it went on and on
We all smile we all sing
The weak become heroes then the stairs align
We all sing we all sing all sing

the problem with taking ecstacy is that it can fool you into thinking the magic is just drug induced. remember the magic is REAL! and to live in the magic can be a CONSCIOUS decision!!
ps. re speed: in my experience ain't consciousness-raising but consciousness-RAZING!
good luck, have fun!
PEACE

Peace Is Now
BigTrancer; I deeply respect the people here and you especially;and I do of course,totally appreciate the wanting of backups/references on facts purported;I feel the same way myself and if you want to know where I received the information,absolutely totally fair enough.
1.The fact of alcohol being a solvent upon nerve particles I read while in the main Bluelight drug section referenced from a reputable article.If I manage to successfully backwade and pinpoint the exact location of the source of that purported fact I am quite willing to report back to here regarding this.
2.The facts about the number of drug deaths accountable to tobacco and alcohol was sourced from a number of methods,1 being Life Education Australia in paper material that I read from their material that they had sourced from Australian surveys.On the web looking up for these surveys I find various sources supporting these statements.One being the
Australian Institute of Health and Welfare;Australia's national agency for health and welfare statistics and information,where one finds

Tobacco use is the major cause of drug or alcohol-related deaths in Australia. In 1998, around 19,000 deaths were attributable to the use of tobacco, accounting for 80% of all drug- or alcohol-related deaths. The Burden of Disease and Injury in Australia study estimated that almost 10% of the total burden of disease in Australia in 1996 was attributable to tobacco smoking. The burden of disease methodology combines years of life lost due to premature death with years of living with disability.
Alcohol use is also a major cause of drug- or alcohol-related deaths in Australia. In 1998, around 2,000 deaths among persons aged 0-64 years were attributable to the use of alcohol, accounting for 28% of all drug- or alcohol-related deaths in this age group. The Australian Burden of Disease study estimated that almost 4.9% of the total burden of disease in Australia in 1996 was attributable to alcohol consumption.
More References may follow dear Bluelighters.
Cowboy Mac I do reckon you rock(rave)however I do not know why you would think just as I am a greenlighter, I be of less than 2 years in understanding of subject.
Peace be with you and ALL as it always is and always shall be.
together
[ 05 January 2003: Message edited by: together ]

Click to expand...

mate your opinion strikes me as one of someone who is new to MDMA use... whilst i may stand to be corrected, but once youve experienced the 'other' side of MDMA, ie those following few days when you can be really agitated, irritated, aggressive, angry, annoyed, sad, neurotic, pedantic, and generally unhappy, you begin to see that there are two sides to everything.
if those at war all had pills yeah maybe theyd bond for a night, but in the next following days, theyd blwo each other to pieces.
MDMA is a schedule 1 substance because it is the unknown. its human nature to dislike and or totally ban what they cannot understand.
plus, despite being such a wonderful substance when used in the right context, you cant tell me that there arent many negative effects - not necessarily for the duration of it, but more or less after prolonged use.
MDMA is not suitable for every situation.. and i know alcohol isnt either. but i dont think ill ever reach the state of mind, where ill drop a pill on christmas day with the family. or ill come home after work to relax, and eat a pill. a couple of beers is a perfect answer to many problems.

The only reason for the alcohol legal status is that alcohol is a drug with a deep tradition in our society. People know that it can destroy families, turn people into loosers, etc., but they also know that if one makes a responsible use of it, there won't be major problems. Now, MDMA is a very recent drug, and people are so stupid that they just don't think that there can be a responsible and moderate MDMA use. And I don't think that things will be better. We are educated by our parents and by the society to make a responsible use of alcohol, but the education when it comes to drugs is "JUST SAY NO".... and most people abuse illegal drugs withouth even thinking of moderating their usage. But on the other hand..... I think it's alot easier to use alcohol moderatly than it is with MDMA........

The difference between alcohol/tobacco and other drugs is that alcohol and tobacco have been accepted in our society and societies before ours for a long time. Banning them will result in what happened during the Prohibition in the States (find references on history elsewhere if needed .
MDMA and other drugs have never been legal AND widely accepted at the same time. The reason our society is not completelly overrun by criminal syndicates like during the Prohibition, is that there is relatively low demand for other drugs as opposed to demand for alcohol and tobacco. This is why the authorities can afford to keep drugs such as MDMA at Schedule I level. Meth of course is a Schedule II drug because there is more demand since it is not just a recreational drug.
The arguement of whether alcohol is more harmful to oneself and/or society is very much a useless one as everyone has their own experiences and there are things being discovered every day to do with MDMA and other drugs. I do find it quite funny though when some people appear to think that their knowledge of MDMA related subjects is directly related to the number of years they've been a user...

Mac you grumpy assed hippy, feel the PLUR!!
[ 06 January 2003: Message edited by: Nickstar ]

Eddi Spgeddi: This has really been covered before, less than a year ago.
The reason I insist on references for information of any kind in this forum is simply to aim for the most factual information. Hearsay is better left unsaid than presented as fact.
Too many people have 'heard' bullshit information about drugs illegal and legal from 'sources they trust' and represented that information here as fact, when it was plainly crap to anyone who actually researched the subjects. By encouraging people to actually read up on a subject they wish to express their opinion about, hopefully I can get people to think about what they're saying, and ask themselves if it makes sense. Hell, maybe even learn something while searching for informaton to confirm if what they 'heard' was true or false.
Or... at the VERY least, get people to include a disclaimer of sorts to elucidate whether they actually got verified informaton from an authoritative source.
I'm not asking people to stop posting opinions, n fact just the opposite -- post all the opinions you like, but qualify the statement as an opinion rather than trying to take the moral high ground by asserting an opinion as fact when you haven't got any evidence to support it. I'd just like people to clarify when they're doing so... is it REALLY that much to ask, that people verify shit before they assert it as opinionative evidence??
In my personal opinion - misinformation is worse than no information:

• If it's fact, then back it up with references.
• If it's hearsay, tell us, we might be able to find out for you.
• If it's bullshit, keep it to yourself.

BigTrancer

Dear Team,
Peace,
not sure where the idea that I be a newbie idea came from but send it back to where it came from please with lots of love.
Just cos I'm a BL newbie does not mean I be of new of E.
I started pillin more than ten years ago.
I am totally for referencing and BT your laying down the line cos your the mod;(and one that I do respect and support as well)That's being the case,then please do not think I am against Referencing.I really like it, and I support what you say in regards to it.OK, so we agree on referencing;now from what I have written and with what you can acceptfrom my statements referenced or not ,may we get on with my original questions/ideas that I started this thread with. (Page/Scroll UP)
Now it has been put forward (If I am understanding this correctly)in this thread that if the "warmongers" were to be dosed then next they may be fighting again.perhaps ,this may be ,then that get's back to the lifestyle/health approach these people had put in effect before the dropping. Some things may change overnight, some things may take a while.
With the right caring people a lot of good and healing of even the so called "hardest hearts" (if they still exist at this point in time) may be done,simply due to the fact that all human beings have a heart with a spark of love light from the creator and wish to avoid suffering.
Win+Win situations is for what we are striving.
Peace.
together
[ 07 January 2003: Message edited by: together ]

interesting subject.
i fully agree with X being so much betta than alcohol and many other drugs tho i do see the downside. how many ppl cant handle their drugs and find themselves taking pills every day mixed in with god know wat else. it seems to me that ppl r using it to live by instead of as an aide.
and u cant forget how much it costs AND the next day. its all very depressing wen u think of it like that.
wenever i start feeling completely shit-house i always end up blaming it on the drugs and try to forget about it. is that healthy or am i just covering my probs? and still i am waiting for that god-awful comedown that evry1 has sometime in their life. (ive only been rolling since june)
but on the other hand, no matter how shit u feel, talk to someone else who rolls and u'll always feel betta cos they know wat ur going thru.
and the good times ALWAYS outnumber the bad

point taken, and you're correct.
i read it as personal opinion, as it had no ref., i value it as just that... but i do value it and if were important to me id ask for references too, or search out the truth for myself. its important for you to remain strict on this guideline coz of all the dumb people who believe everything they read, shame really, but then this isnt social either.
cheers