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View Full Version : Drug Dog's Ability to Detect Different Legal Cannabinoids



!_MDMA_!
23-03-2011, 09:05
can the k9 drug dogs smell k2/spice/jwh's?

i imagine most of em are sprayed on home herbs like oregano or porperi or whatever

this isnt a smuggling question or anything like that before this gets closed

but do drug dogs smell synthetic cannabanoids or will they be trained now due to their ban?


will training one for jwh-018 for example make it able to detect jwh-250?

wat about after its been dissovled and sprayed?



just some questions on my mind

sekio
23-03-2011, 09:21
Nope. They're not volatile enough. Though there's no reason you coulsn't train a dog to alert on damiana or whatever.

Tuneman
23-03-2011, 20:56
I'm sure a drug dog could be trained to smell them but probably not differentiate between each kind- I doubt they smell differently enough. Cocaine, doesn't really smell and they can smell that. Most of the JWH's aren't illegal though so you have no real worry unless someone is putting illegal jwh's in a blend which would be incredibly stupid.

TearItDown
23-03-2011, 20:57
Nope. They're not volatile enough. Though there's no reason you coulsn't train a dog to alert on damiana or whatever.

Dogs can be trained to smell LSD. They can definitely smell and be trained to smell JWH.

Artificial Emotion
23-03-2011, 21:24
Nope. They're not volatile enough.

A substance doesn't have to be volatile for a dog to be able to smell it. That said, I doubt many police dogs have been trained to smell k2/spice/whatever.

If you want to avoid the sniffer dogs then I suggest you don't carry around the contraband in the first place. If you must, then I would recommend watching the videos of that ex-police officer (I think it's name is Barry?), like the one called 'Never get busted again'. A lot of the advice he gives is really quite good.

Laika
23-03-2011, 21:27
Dogs can be trained to smell LSD. They can definitely smell and be trained to smell JWH.

Source please

Warped Reality
23-03-2011, 21:42
Can they smell Ecstasy? I'd imagine, but I'm just making sure.

sekio
23-03-2011, 23:13
A substance doesn't have to be volatile for a dog to be able to smell it.

Uh, yes it does, because how else is the dog going to detect it? Unless Fido is carrying around a NMR machine, he's not going to know anything is there unless there's a scent. The scent in question is usually not the drug being searched for (i.e. dogs don't smell cocaine) but volatile breakdown products/impurities (benzoic acid, methanol, etc) or another chemical associated with the drug (terpenes in Cannabis).

Dogs can't detect LSD because it's non volatile and unless you're a really sloppy chemist there won't be enough volatiles to signal anything.

Off the top of my head, at the very least cocaine, mushrooms, cathinones, freebase tryptamines, opium, heroin, marijuana, and MDA-type drugs (esp. those made or adulterated with safrole - maybe even straight amphetamine too depending on synthesis) would be detectable. Drugs manufactured or purified using volatile solvents like ether/chloroform or made with the use of primary amines (methylamine) would also be stinky enough to train dogs with.

!_MDMA_!
24-03-2011, 09:07
A substance doesn't have to be volatile for a dog to be able to smell it. That said, I doubt many police dogs have been trained to smell k2/spice/whatever.

If you want to avoid the sniffer dogs then I suggest you don't carry around the contraband in the first place. If you must, then I would recommend watching the videos of that ex-police officer (I think it's name is Barry?), like the one called 'Never get busted again'. A lot of the advice he gives is really quite good.

no its that im more worried about the hassle of being found with a blend even if its legal
some good info in this thread i never knew thats how dogs detect the smell

3rd_I_blind
24-03-2011, 09:27
The scent in question is usually not the drug being searched for (i.e. dogs don't smell cocaine) but volatile breakdown products/impurities (benzoic acid, methanol, etc) or another chemical associated with the drug (terpenes in Cannabis).
I'm not really educated in this matter, but this sounds like bullshit - total bullshit. Dogs can detect volatile molecules in the parts per trillion range. Almost all alcoholic beverages contain methanol, while benzoic acid is added to a lot of foodstuff and different medicines. Also, if this was really the case I bet there would have been a lot of legal issues, since how can it be a warranted search if the dog is not trained to smell the drug, but to detect an unscheduled solvent like methanol!?

As for the cannabis, it is a natural product so there is no 'distinct chemical' to train for since it is a mixture of chemicals (probably thousands of different chemicals). Beside that, THC is a terpenoid too. And sniffer dogs can and have been trained to smell LSD, so you're wrong on that one too.

Thanks for making me giggle though. :)

GlassAss420
24-03-2011, 09:45
Yes especially in quantity, the sassafrass oil leftover in it should be more than enougth to smell.

xstayfadedx
24-03-2011, 09:52
Well before the k9 can sniff it out snap its neck like they do in call of duty modern warfare 2....or shoot em like they do in black ops.

I think I've been playing that game too much....

purple_cloud
24-03-2011, 16:50
I'm on the fence as to whether or not this type of question is allowed on BL, but I changed the title of the thread to reflect the OP's main question. Also, can you please make your titles more specific in the future? It's much easier for people to use the search engine that way, and also know what a thread is about before they open it. I'm leaving this open for now, but if Yergy or Chaini-poo feel otherwise, they can feel free to do as they wish.

sekio
24-03-2011, 21:08
Disclaimer: I am a chemist, and not a law enforcement officer or dog trainer so maybe my knowledge of dogs is not up to snuff.

I am well aware of the sensitivity and complexity of the canine nose, especially when it comes to tracking people, explosives, and cadavers. These three things all have one key element in common: they emit volatile chemicals.

I can see absolutely no reason why LSD-25 (especially salts thereof) would be volatile to any sort of appreciable level. The nearest straight-chain hydrocarbon in terms of molecular weight is tricosane (MW ~310). It boils at over 300 degrees C and has a vapour pressure of around 10 to the minus 5 mm Hg at room temperature. It's parrafin wax, basically, for a layman - and since it's a stright-chain alkane adding any heteroatoms to the structure is likely to drive the boiling point up. (Tricosane melts at 47 degrees. LSD freebase at 80 degrees, so use your imagination what happens to the boiling point and vapour pressure). Since LSD is usually distributed as the salt anyway, the boiling point goes up some more. Coupled with the absurdly small quantities of drug in a dose, this doesn't bode well.

I would imagine, conversely, breakdown products such as diethylamine (and ecognine, etc) are more likely to volatilize at room temperature and therefore more likely to be the trigger for a "detection response" in dogs. But I honestly don't know and may just be talking out my ass on this point. If I am, I would like to look into replacing the multi-thousand-dollar GC/MS setups where I work with dogs, because they're equivalently as sensitive, and if you have a reference standard anyway, why not? Instead you can switch vaccuum pumps and helium tanks out for doggy chow.

I also wonder what Sigma puts in their "LSD for training dogs". The MSDS says it's just an irritant (they don't clarify much), not a powerful psychoactive agent. And training dogs to detect just any ergoloids (not solely LSD) would result in a lot of Parkinsons' patients getting busted at the airport.

Regardless of the detection threshold for dogs, I've seen posts generally divided into 4 categories. Those who walk by dogs with big bags of pills and nothing happen, those who actually get busted by dogs at border searches or whatever, those who have absolute faith that dogs can detect single molecules of volatiles, and people who say dogs are no better than guessing. I am more inclined to believe the latter than the former 3 people.

If you would like to provide some literature references, that'd be good. All I could dredge up however was old bluelight posts full of speculation.

3rd_I_blind
25-03-2011, 12:17
Regardless of the detection threshold for dogs, I've seen posts generally divided into 4 categories. Those who walk by dogs with big bags of pills and nothing happen, those who actually get busted by dogs at border searches or whatever, those who have absolute faith that dogs can detect single molecules of volatiles, and people who say dogs are no better than guessing. I am more inclined to believe the latter than the former 3 people.
As far as I know, most dogs at festivals or other events are not sniffer dogs, but more of the 'crowd control' type. This was told to me by a woman that claimed she had worked for 12+ years with sniffer dogs (actually, just one sniffer dog since they are coupled to one or two officers to establish a bonding relationship), but of course she could have been talking out of her ass just to look interesting. Alas, she explained to me that crowd control dogs are trained to observe aberrant or 'guilty' behavior. Based on the four explanations you describe, it fits the 'just guessing' explanation best. Sniffer dogs are far too expensive and sensitive to deploy near events, where the biggest possible bust could perhaps be worth $ 10,000 or less.

As far as dogs being able to detect single molecules; even the human nose is capable of detecting certain molecules at the mg per kton (0,001 gram in 1,000,000,000 gram) level, and a dog's sense of smell is about 100 million times stronger. This definitely approaches the single molecule barrier (20th order of magnitude, Avogrado's is 23th order of magnitude), at least when looking at order of magnitude. But not only is a dog's sense of smell much better, their brain is also dominated by the olfactory cortex (where the human brain is dominated by the visual cortex). So a dog perceives the world not visually, but olfactory.

On the other hand, I have given it some second thought and perhaps you are right that a dog does not smell the LSD but rather a chemical that is formed by breakdown of LSD. But they are not specifically TRAINED with the breakdown product, rather with the LSD.

Lastly, about the melting point and vapour pressure you mention... Even kitchen salt (vapour pressure virtually non-existent, melting point above 1,500 degrees? [centigrade, of course]) has a smell to it if you sniff it from a 500 gram container. Just to show that vapour pressure and melting point are only approximations; a lot of substances slowly evaporate far below their melting point. Then I can't really imagine any chemist in the drug-business being able to produce a salt with absolutely no remaining bits of the free base, but I am not an organic chemist so I might be wrong in estimating how hard it is to produce a 100% pure salt.

Vader
25-03-2011, 19:31
p_c, I don't like these kinds of threads either, they seem to violate the same principles that causes us to prohibit drug-testing questions, and lead only to speculation. Closed, if anyone has any important revelations to add then PM me.