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  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

Simple GHB chemistry question.

Raving Loony

Raving Loony

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Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Messages
3,181
Disclaimer : Work in progress only. There is no information about how to consume GHB or any of it's analogues here. Please visit the GHB/1,4B draft FAQ instead.
Hi,
I would have put this in with the GHB/1,4B draft FAQ, but I didn't want to confuse it with anything misleading.
Anyway...
I've got a very honest and open question about perhaps determining the difference between GHB and it's analogues. I remember something back in high school saying that some metals (icluding metal ions) give off a distinct colour under a flame. For instance copper would emit green under a flame(from memory).
Given that GHB analogues GBL and 1,4B don't have Sodium as part of their structure. Could one crudely determine whether the substance is likely to be GHB on the basis of what colour the substance emits under a flame? (obviously the test could be easily screwed up if the dealer put common salt in the mixture).
[ 22 August 2002: Message edited by: Raving Loony ]
 
Its a nice idea but i think u are on the wrong track.
Now i may too be wrong with the exact particulars of this because my background is organic not in inorganic, but when u burn these metals under a flame to give off a brilliant light you are burning the METAL. That is the element in its elemental form; not its ionic form.
And u are burning a large solid piece; whether it be copper, magnesium, sodium.
The sodium in a sodium salt, in this case GHB, exists as an IONIC cation, and the loss of that one electron changes the entire substance's properties as its no longer a metal as such. Its a metal ion. This wouldnt burn as would sodium; in the metal u have billions upon billions upon billions and so on of atoms all bunched together to make a solid.
In a salt u have the sodium ion forming a continuous 3-D structure with the GHB ion to form a powder/crystalline substance.
When this is dissolved in water that 3-D structure is broken up and u have all those many sodium ions existing in the solution INDIVIDUALLY.
So no, it wont burn because the properties of sodium metal and sodium ions are completely different. The undissolved powder itself will not display the same properties as the metal either.
 
I thought that might have been the case. As I said, It was just an idea.
I remember though seeing Atomic Absorbtion Spectrometry (sp?) done at high school and we put small traces of metal in solution. The flame would change accordingly. But If what you say is true then, Mods... It's over to you.
[ 21 August 2002: Message edited by: Raving Loony ]
 
I'm happy to leave it this open, or close it, or whatever you want me to do with it. If this issue is over then I'll close it, but I don't want to judge that myself as I don't have a full understanding of the subject...
Are you satisfied with the response you've got, or would you like it left open for further comments from others? :)
 
I can't add anymore to the discussion as it's been too long since I have done Chemistry. There may be others who thik it may be worth pursuing. But from what I make of Biscuit's response, that the idea is a dead loss.
If anyone wants it re-opened then I guess they'll ask.
 
Okies, sounds good to me... :)
If anyone has anything to add to this, email one of the DD mods and we'll reopen it for you...
 
Submitted by ChrisV:
The colour emitted by a burning metal has nothing to do with the fact that it is burning per se. You can put the metal in a vacuum tube and subject it to high heat or current or whatever and get the same spectrum.
Atoms emit (and absorb) light because the electrons that orbit the atom can orbit at higher or lower energy states. Under normal conditions the electron is orbiting in its "ground state" orbit. The atom then absorbs a photon of light (or other methods - high heat, for example) which knocks the electron into a higher energy orbit. The electron then at some later date decides it's had enough of being high-energy and emits a photon of light to drop back into lower energy orbits. Different colours of light correspond to different photon energies. So you can identify an element either by its absorption spectrum (the photons its electrons absorb to go higher energy) or its emission spectrum (the photons that are emitted). The two are not necessarily the same because an electron can absorb a very high-energy photon and get knocked up, say, three levels, but it must decay back to ground state one level at a time. When you put a metal atom in a flame you are watching its emission spectrum. Metal atoms and ions both work, so you can use the metal or a salt of it.
In theory, burning GHB, which is the sodium salt of gamma-hydroxybutyric acid, would produce a bright yellow flame, while 1,4-b wouldn't. Try putting some granular common salt in a teaspoon and letting a gas flame burn it for an idea of what to expect. But I'd say this method is unlikely to be popular as it involves burning your drugs :)
Click to expand...
 
^^^ Tidy work :)
But... As ChrisV said, it involves burning drugs! Try to find out what it is when ya buy it.
:)
 
In theory, burning GHB, which is the sodium salt of gamma-hydroxybutyric acid, would produce a bright yellow flame, while 1,4-b wouldn't. Try putting some granular common salt in a teaspoon and letting a gas flame burn it for an idea of what to expect. But I'd say this method is unlikely to be popular as it involves burning your drugs
So in other words it is any different to breaking of pills and shoving acid on it for colormetric testing?
:)
If had some liquid that was suspected to be either GHB or 1,4B, would I just boil the water off and then shove it under a flame? What temperature range should I use?
[ 22 August 2002: Message edited by: Raving Loony ]
Click to expand...
 
Just get a a thin piece of metal (a sewing needle would probably do, or a skewer, but hold it with something so you don't burn yourself!) and dip in the liquid, then put the bit you dipped in directly in a gas flame. Leave it there till its not wet anymore and you should see the flame flare yellow at some point. Try it out with salt water if you like.
If you're thinking "so why doesn't the needle glow strange colours too? thats metal!" the answer is that solid metals don't work because the electrons are all weird. You have to vapourise them (don't try that at home with steel, kids).
Anyone has any 1,4-b and/or GHB around they feel like burning, let us know if it works!
If you do it that way i suppose you arent burning much of it at all. Never having taken GHB/1,4-b I don't know how marked the salty taste is, but I suppose this is a decent method for a newbie. I'd do it if my dealer talked a bunch of crap that made it clear that he actually had no idea what he was selling.
One more thing - GHB comes in a water solution and is likely to be OK, but if you had pure 1,4-b and dipped a red-hot skewer in it, it's possible you could end up with more of your drugs burning than you bargained for. So cool the needle down if it's just been in the flame :)
OK enough edits.
[ 22 August 2002: Message edited by: ChrisV ]
[ 22 August 2002: Message edited by: ChrisV ]
[ 22 August 2002: Message edited by: ChrisV ]
 
Raving Loony - no... Na-GHB is a salt disolved in a liquid (water), while 1,4b is a liquid... evaporate it and you are left with nothing. you would have to burn the liquid.
M
 
^
16.gif
: Nice work ChrisV, thanks!
BigTrancer :)
 
Originally posted by Maxi:
Raving Loony - no... Na-GHB is a salt disolved in a liquid (water), while 1,4b is a liquid... evaporate it and you are left with nothing. you would have to burn the liquid.
M
Ok, but if that was the case I'd be able to see if I had GHB by simply boiling a sample of the liquid. If I had a salt left over, then I knew I had GHB. If it all evaporated then I knew I had 1,4B. Right?
Anyway...
I went over to the over stove and gave it a go. I couldn't get the brilliant yellow with my chemical (I use between 18-20mL of this solution to get going). Even with my table salt I got a small bit of yellow in the center and the rest was orange. Confusion... Then I looked at the back and it appears that Potassium is present in higher concetrations than the Sodium.
I was thinking, where can I get some sodium with stuff all potassium. MSG perhaps? I had some chicken stock though. There was 30x as much sodium in comparisson to potassium, so what the heck.
I mixed it in some warm water. Then dipped the screwdriver :) in the chicken stock solution and put it over the flame... YELLOW. And lots of it. So unless there is something else in the stock that could be causing it to go so yellow or unless there isn't enough sodium for the G-substance it to stand out... I'd guess that my G-substance is 1,4B!
Click to expand...
 
Thanks ChrisV; moral of the story Mods is never close a thread too early i guess.
I'll stick to organic i think.
Although i understand atomic emission and absorption, so dont know how it was so easily forgotten; maybe i am addled.
 
Raving Loony posted:
But from what I make of Biscuit's response, that the idea is a dead loss.
If anyone wants it re-opened then I guess they'll ask.
The original poster had requested it closed - Pleo just obliged, and quite courteously left all options for it to be reopened again, and did so within a short time of receiving new info - I think everyone did well, this discussion was quite quickly rounded out in fine style. Thanks to all the contributors.
Don't doubt yourself Biscuit :) We can't know everything... I was trying to dredge up old 2nd year inorganic chem and physical chem memories of using AAS/AES machines and failed dismally to come up with anything helpful :D . Posts like these help all of us learn.
BigTrancer :)
Click to expand...
 
It was a journey for me too... digging into the back corners of my mind, I haven't done chem since 1999 and my brain tends to dump unused information within about 2 years.
Raving Loony: I guess you must have that "low sodium" table salt, that stuff never tasted much like real salt to me. You should probably try the freezing test as well and see if that agrees that the stuff is 1,4-b. If it does, I guess we can claim success!
 
The bottle is sitting in the vegetable crisper of the fridge now for 6-7 hours. Not sure how much longer it needs to be, but I'll let you know.
 
At the end of the fridge-test, you'll of course be disposing of all remaining substance in an environmentally friendly method immediately - right? Would advise against advertising any longer-term possession of illegal substances etc.
BigTrancer :)
 
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