• 🇳🇿 🇲🇲 🇯🇵 🇨🇳 🇦🇺 🇦🇶 🇮🇳
    Australian & Asian
    Drug Discussion

    Welcome Guest!
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

Brain Drain?

H

*HappyApple*

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 29, 2002
Messages
40
I was commonly under the impression from reading most of the posts here at bluelight, that serotonin levels in the brain return to normal levels (after a typical dose) in around two weeks.
I was asked where i got this information from recently and realised that i had merely been taking it as assumed knowledge, without really thinking about scientific proof.
It is mentioned in dancesafe's slideshow, but could anyone direct me to any medical/scientific literature that states this....?
thanks
 
I'm pretty sure Erowid.Org has some information on this which is writteen in a medical fashion, if not, I'm sure babydoc_vic will have a link or somewhere for you to look. :)
 
i guess i should specify im talking about doseing mdma here, but that may have been obvious, sorry... :)
And ive checked erowid and lycaeum and it appears as though most information is related to neurotoxicity and ways of prevention, buti couldnt find a specific reference to the replenishment of serotonin....
 
Seeing as Splatt had so much faith in me, I scurried off in search of some links :) There's no exact answer of course, as no human studies of this type are authorised, but some ratties have done their bit for the cause.
My esteemed colleague zorn had this to say: INFO: Types of Changes In Your Brain From Taking MDMA. Note the first two points there.
This study
Changes in Serotonin, Dopamine and Noradrenaline Levels in Striatum and Nucleus Accumbens After Repeated Administration of the Abused Drug MDMA in rats concluded that if you pump ratties full of large amounts of MDMA for 10 consecutive days, then sacrifice the ratties and analyse their brains at 4 weeks levels of serotonin plus 2 other neurotransmitters will be decreased in some parts of the brain. No surprise really with that much MDMA.
Then of course there's dancesafe. Catch22 and I have been chatting about this and we reckon dancesafe/Emmanuel Sferios got the 2 week figure from the 4 studies he mentions under "How large a dose will produce damage?" - the 2 weeks being an average of the figures there.
Here's a mention of how to minimise serotonin depletion: here go to the Reducing Tolerance bit.
I might come back to this as I'm so tired right now I think my brain might be melting...
(PS Special thanks to my "research assistant" and advisor Catch22 ;) for help with this)
 
Thank you very much for doing some searching for me babydoc, much appreciated...
I hope i didnt keep you up :)
I found zorn's post, and also the info from dancesafe, plus this little excerpt from 'MDMA Neurotoxicity, by Matthew Baggott, BA, and John Mendelson, MD', which i think supports my argument
'Primate neurotoxicity no-effect level
Ricaurte (personal communication,1992) and associates at Johns Hopkins University recently completed the data analysis portion of a primate study which for the first time has identified a no-effect level for MDMA neurotoxicity. The study involved six primates, three controls and three experimental animals who received an oral administration of 2.5 mg/kg of MDMA once every two weeks for four months (8x). Eight brain regions were examined for 5-HT and 5-HIAA content. There were no significant differences between experimental and control animals in any of the brain regions studied. Since a previous study by Ricaurte (1988a) has shown that a single oral dose of 5.0 mg/kg causes neurotoxicity only in the thalamus and hypothalamus, this study demonstrates that the primate no-effect level lies somewhere between 2.5 and 5.0 mg /kg.'
I found it somewhat strange that information like this that is taken for granted on bluelight, is only based on what appears to be very little actual scientific studies....but i guess thats the same for all studies of mdma and other illegals....
Or am i missing something?
 
Happy Apple:
No, the "two week" thing mentioned by Dancesafe is not based on published studies. It is something said by a guy who averaged together some stuff that happened to monkeys and rats. It is a rough estimate, not an accepted medical or scientific finding. Treat it as someone's "best guess," nothing more.
Just for completeness, here is the info from Dancesafe:
When squirrel monkeys were given 2.5 milligrams of MDMA per kilogram of body weight (2.5mg/kg) twice a month for four months by intragastric injection, they showed no changes at all in their long-term levels of brain serotonin, in the the amount of 5-HIAA in their spinal fluid, or in the amound of uptake (Ricuarte). When rats were given a single 10mg/kg dose orally, they did not suffer anything either (Broening et al, 1993). When given the same 10mg/kg dose subcutaneously to rats, one study showed nothing (Chapman), while another showed reduced brain serotonin levels one to two weeks later, (Schmidt, 1986 and Stone et al, 1987). In another study, when squirrel monkeys were given a single oral dose of 5mg/kg, they showed a reduction of serotonin in their thalamus and hypothalamus two weeks later (Ricuarte et al, 198 8) . When rhesus monkeys were injected with 2.5mg/kg twice daily for four days intragastrically, they showed reduced serotonin levels in their hippocampus 30 days later (Ali et al, 1993). And when 20mg/kg was administered the same way to rats, it reduced their serotonin levels in three brain areas as well as caused a loss of serotonin uptake sites, indicating definate structural damage (Schmidt, 1994 and Browning et al, 1994, 1995).
The above paragraph seems to be where this business about "two weeks" started.
Click to expand...
 
(unscientific answer below)
One thing to consider is that where ever this two week figure originally came from, it feels right. Of course everbody is different, and there will be variations, but I'd say roughly, on averge, it takes me about two weeks before I feel that the neurotransmitter levels in my head have re-balanced. I think this is the most important thing, knowing yourself, and erring on the side of caution.
 
Catch-22: That's what i was thinking....but i was kind of pulling at straws a bit trying to back up my case...
and johnboy: That's a good enough theory for me, and seeing as there isnt going to be much 'official' human testing of mdma in the near future, theres not much that can be done about it anwyays....
 
Might b good time to ask, i've been reading just about all i can find concerning effects of pills on the brain/ body and mind, but there is one thing i haven't really managed to find.
What are the effects of smoking weed b4 during and after pilling/meth/wip/tripping?
Is there any dangers in having too much during a roll or after, is ur brain more open to damage? does it reduce/increase or do little to the effects of these pdrugs on the brain systems?
Just sumtimes i get an uneasy feeling if i smoke a fair bit while una the influence and having copious amounts on cumdowns.
It's been a week on cold turkey from weed, wish me luck :)
 
This may not help with your reasons for having a break/giving up, but several recent reports indicate THC has a neuroprotective effect in regards to oxidative stress. THC is an antioxidant, with one report claiming it was better than Vit C or E.
FROM: NCBI, PUB-MED
pub-med
Neuroprotective antioxidants from marijuana.
Hampson AJ, Grimaldi M, Lolic M, Wink D, Rosenthal R, Axelrod J.
Laboratory of Cellular and Molecular Regulation, NIMH, Bethesda, Maryland 20892, USA. [email protected]
Cannabidiol and other cannabinoids were examined as neuroprotectants in rat cortical neuron cultures exposed to toxic levels of the neurotransmitter, glutamate. The psychotropic cannabinoid receptor agonist delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) and cannabidiol, (a non-psychoactive constituent of marijuana), both reduced NMDA, AMPA and kainate receptor mediated neurotoxicities. Neuroprotection was not affected by cannabinoid receptor antagonist, indicating a (cannabinoid) receptor-independent mechanism of action. Glutamate toxicity can be reduced by antioxidants. Using cyclic voltametry and a fenton reaction based system, it was demonstrated that Cannabidiol, THC and other cannabinoids are potent antioxidants. As evidence that cannabinoids can act as an antioxidants in neuronal cultures, cannabidiol was demonstrated to reduce hydroperoxide toxicity in neurons. In a head to head trial of the abilities of various antioxidants to prevent glutamate toxicity, cannabidiol was superior to both alpha-tocopherol and ascorbate in protective capacity. Recent preliminary studies in a rat model of focal cerebral ischemia suggest that cannabidiol may be at least as effective in vivo as seen in these in vitro studies.
A recent study done at Sydney Uni indicates cannabis may indeed offer these benefits when taken with MDMA (makes sense). However these are preliminary lab studies - in-vitro and rats - and are a long way from being proved conclusively.
Click to expand...
 
It should be noted, for completeness, that taking more drugs to protect against the effects of drugs you're taking already may be false harm minimisation. While the neuroprotective effects of THC may be shown as above, using THC in a harm minimisation sense is probably not necessarily as effective as reducing the dose of the initial substance instead.
BigTrancer :)
 
Thanks BT. It should also be realised that many drug interactions are poorly understood.
Having no present knowledge of mechanisms involved with the apparent protective properties of cannabis, there is little chance any adverse interactions with MDMA would be fully understood.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top