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LSD storage and purity/potency issues.

apollo

apollo

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 24, 2001
Messages
2,422
Shulgin described LSD as an "unusually fragile" molecule...
Everyone knows acid loses its potency over time... But, it seems there's been a bit of misinformation thrown around. I know I for one was given incorrect information.
LSD deteriorates when brought into contact with oxygen, ultra-violet light, moisture, heat and of course the reknown culprit - sunlight. Do not store it in aluminium foil. There is apparently reasonable suspicion that it reacts with polyethylene and aluminium.
Ideal storage - sprinkled with vitamin C (ascorbic acid) crystals, tightly wrapped in cellophane and placed in mild refrigeration.
Realistic storage - A sealed sattie bag with all the air squeezed out. Placed in a cool, dry & dark place (back of a draw for example). Throwing in one of those moisture absorbing silicon sachets couldn't hurt either.
In the end it's unavoidable - your LSD will deteriorate.
People often talk about some blotter paper producing more pronounced visual effects, and less of a "mindfuck". Or vice versa. Naturally, everyone wants to get their hands on "visual" acid.
I've heard a lot of theories on this... Most people agree that due to tiny imprescisions in manufacture, some LSD is more visual, or heavier on your thought process. I've also heard people say "pure LSD doesn't fuck with your head at all, it's purely a hallucinogenic drug, it's safe to do anything on it man, you can think like normal"...
What I've discovered:
(note - this is a syllogism...)
The d- isomer of LSD (hence d-lysergic acid diethlaymide) is the only one psychoactive in the quantities we see in blotter paper (50-400ug). Thus, all blotter paper should contain LSD with the exact same properties.
There simply aren't any other chemicals which are so psychadelically potent at these doses. If "LSD" tastes like something, you're in trouble. LSD is tasteless and colourless. I'd like to draw to a point... Unless the trips are aged and the LSD degraded, the only difference in effect between one trip and another (or one person and another) using the same blotter paper is set and setting.
Anyone got something to add or correct me on? Someone with a bit more chemical knowledge...
All of this was found at http://www.erowid.org
:)
[ 25 May 2002: Message edited by: apollo ]
 
Hey Mate.
This is my first post so bear in mind im just a newbie. Just wanted to share my experience with the 'fragility' of LSD. This one time, actually my first trip, after i got the thing i held it in my hand for about 20 minutes... till someone told me that doing that would make it lose its potency. I dropped it then and it was absolutely mind blowing - maybe my sweaty palm reacted with the thing and made it even more psychoactive then usual... Then the next morning i procured another one - actually the dd was just handing them out he obviously didn't care anyways... i put the paper in my pocket and didn't think about it til hrs later... then i put it in my wallet where it got mashed around a bit more. After that i couldn't even recognise the picture and i swapped it with a friend for some chooph and he told me that it destroyed him. So maybe a bit of harsh treatment does the blotter well. Sorry that im not imparting any chemical insight here i just felt like a rant. I'm in Melbourne and I am trying to guage the quality of the local stuff vs other LSDs in say Sydney or Brisbane. Anyone from Melbourne care to share their insights on the topic?
 
so what was the point of this post?
:)
hmm, so youre saying that when someone says 'that trip is more of a headfuck than that one. and that one has more visuals', what theyre saying is false and it was merely the person, set and setting?
ive heard of people storing acid in a tightly sealed sattie, and inside a book. away from sunlight, moisture, heat, uv light and oxygen. would this be suitable? im yet to figure out a good place to put mine. any ideas if you cant use the fridge for obvious reasons?
 
Welcome to Bluelight RiDdLeD... :)
Sounds to me like the trips you had were hot off the press, and very potent. I seriously doubt that the sweat on your palm made it any more potent. Just because the blotter paper was mangled doesn't mean any LSD had come off it. It shouldn't come off the paper unless it meets with moisture, heat or bright light.
Melancholic...
Getting rid of misinformation/rumours was the point.
hmm, so youre saying that when someone says 'that trip is more of a headfuck than that one. and that one has more visuals', what theyre saying is false and it was merely the person, set and setting? Yes, that's what I'm saying.
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hmm, so youre saying that when someone says 'that trip is more of a headfuck than that one. and that one has more visuals', what theyre saying is false and it was merely the person, set and setting?
more so than most drugs, the quality of the precursors and the skill of the chemist play a large roll in the end-quality of LSD.
set and setting does play a HUGE roll in the effects of prett much ALL drugs, but due to the fragile nature of LSD, the quality of of it will effect the trip quite noticably.
M
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A close friend of mine (i.e. someone i would trust not to bullshit) has successfully kept a few tabs of acid, wrapped in 2 baggies (with a dessicant in the first one) then wrapped the baggies in foil and kept them in the freezer for what is going on almost 2 years with no deterioration (or so they say, and i believe them cos i saw them on these tabs 2 weeks ago!)
ive also known of people that have found trips they lost in their cars at such and such time and such and such doof in the ages of yore... ate them and had a bloody good time!
there was a thread a while back on lsd and its forms, i guess dependant on what solution the lsd is in when it gets *blottered* results in some lsd having amazing non-deterioration powers! for example if it was an aqueous solution of lsd tartrate, you would expect it to have better staying power on a blotter with slower deterioration.
Heres that thread p.s. thanx fetish_jester for the excellent info in this thread!
but setting aside that, keep it dry, keep it on ice and keep it somewhere you wont lose it!! is the best advice!
Andromeda :)
[ 26 May 2002: Message edited by: Andromeda ]
 
Andromeda said:
there was a thread a while back on lsd and its forms, i guess dependant on what solution the lsd is in when it gets *blottered* results in some lsd having amazing non-deterioration powers! for example if it was an aqueous solution of lsd tartrate, you would expect it to have better staying power on a blotter with slower deterioration.
That actually isn't exactly what goes on, if you soak the blotters in any solution, the water evapourates, and you're still just left with a blotter impregnated with LSD that's going to decompose. To my knowledge there is no solution that you dissolve LSD in and then "blotter" it that will prevent it from decomposing, possibly if you used some sort of drying agent, or something that would coat the blotter in a protective coating. But, given the mechanics of dissolution, the amount of time and effort to produce such a coating would just be a waste when you can just keep it in liquid form IMHO.
What I was talking about in the previous thread was that you could store a solution of LSD and .1% tartaric acid in a fridge almost indefinately.
If you want to keep a tab of acid for a long time, get some REALLY pure water (absolutly nothing else in it. Distilled and deionised water.) soak the blotter in it, add some sort of anti-oxidant to it, and put it (the blotter soaked in the water) in a airtight container in the fridge. This is just a suggestion though, read the disclaimer at the bottom of the post.
**Disclaimer**
This is all theoretical to me. I eat my acid on the day I buy it, so I've never really gone about trying to keep my acid "safe."
[ 26 May 2002: Message edited by: Fetish Jester ]
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and I've definitely had acid that I've thought 'cleaner' than other acid.
Some acid gives you a heavy body load, ie head feels heavy, a friend described it as feeling like metal is running through your veins... your stomach is a bit crampy and you feel like you're gonna hurl every now and then.. other acid (like the stuff I had on Saturday night)is cleaner, produces no ill physical effects (i've never had a bad mental effect from acid)and is generally lighter on the body.
At first i thought this was the key differentce between liquid in acid (as most times I've had it, blotter is more like the former described above and liquid more like the latter). Now I know this isn't the case, cos the acid I had on Saturday was a blotter.
So anyone care to explain with an answer other than 'set and setting' because I know other people experience this too.
 
Maxi - I already made that clear in my first post.
Unless the trips are aged and the LSD degraded, the only difference in effect between one trip and another (or one person and another) using the same blotter paper is set and setting.
...
Originally posted by mona:
and I've definitely had acid that I've thought 'cleaner' than other acid.
Some acid gives you a heavy body load, ie head feels heavy, a friend described it as feeling like metal is running through your veins... your stomach is a bit crampy and you feel like you're gonna hurl every now and then.. other acid (like the stuff I had on Saturday night)is cleaner, produces no ill physical effects (i've never had a bad mental effect from acid)and is generally lighter on the body.
At first i thought this was the key differentce between liquid in acid (as most times I've had it, blotter is more like the former described above and liquid more like the latter). Now I know this isn't the case, cos the acid I had on Saturday was a blotter.
So anyone care to explain with an answer other than 'set and setting' because I know other people experience this too.
I know I don't experience that. No LSD I've ever taken has had a body load. I think that's one of the reasons it's a popular psychadelic - no body load.
I think set and setting has really lost it's meaning... 'Set' is the expectations a person has of the drugs effects, which can seriosly alter your trip, there's no doubt about that. 'Setting' is the environment, mood and other behavioural patters of the person normally, in reaction to and as a result of the LSD. Set & setting applies to your hormones, your unconscious, and so forth... It varies wildly from user to user, from day to day.
mona - If one, single isomer of LSD is the only one which active in quantities that fit in blotter paper, what other answer can there be than "set and setting?" (I'm asking that as a serious question, not trying to prove you wrong! I really want to solve this, it's been bugging me for ages...)
Notice in TiHKAL and PiHKAL, Shulgin has detailed the effects, synthesis, etc of all psychoactive chemicals with similar structure... e.g
4,5-MDO-DIPT
5,6-MDO-DIPT
4,5-MDO-DMT
5,6-MDO-DMT
Notice that there is one, and only one LSD.
However, inside Shulgins report on LSD, he provides the following data on chemicals "similar" in nature to LSD.
MBL-61. 2-Bromo-N,N-diethyl-1-methyllysergamide.
LA-111, ergine, d-lysergamide.
LAE-32, N-ethyllysergamide.
LPD-824, N-Pyrrolidyllysergamide.
LSM-775, N-Morpholinyllysergamide.
DAM-57, N,N-Dimethyllysergamide.
DAL, N,N-Diallyllysergamide.
UML-491, Methysergide, Sansert.
ALD-52. 1-Acetyl-N,N-diethyllysergamide.
I've looked over them all, and ALD-52 is the only which could be mistaken for LSD. According to Shulgin however, the only way to get it is from LSD... Why would anyone want to do more illegal chemistry, when they've already produced exactly what the market wants?
LSM-775 is another possibility. However there's clashing reports on its effects...
To the chemists out there, would ALD-52 or LSM-775 be easier/harder to produce than LSD? Are there any reasons why a backyard chemist (remember - money driven, cares very little for the finished product) would produce either of these substances?
I REALLY want to know... :)
[ 27 May 2002: Message edited by: apollo ]
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Why would anyone want to do more illegal chemistry, when they've already produced exactly what the market wants?
what market??? Shulgin certainly didnt dedicate his life to discovering these 'allies' ,as he calls them, just so weekend users could go trippin' balls.
plus, none of the above mentioned chemistry was illegal for Shulgin... he has all the required licences, so i dont think that was really a worry for hm.
M
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Maxi, you've misinterpreted my post.
I was listing the chemicals Shulgin explored and documented in TiHKAL as similar to LSD to pose the possibility of some of them (ALD-52 & LSM-775) being sold as LSD on the streets... And thus being the reason for "different acid".
I'm completely aware of the legal matters surrounding Shulgins work, and the nature of it.
I didn't express my ideas very clearly, I was extremely exhausted and quite frustrated at the time I wrote it...
Hope you follow now, Sorry.
:)
 
Apollo said:
To the chemists out there, would ALD-52 or LSM-775 be easier/harder to produce than LSD?
From what I can dredge up from my memory, ALD-52 can be easily prepared from LSD-25 via the addition of an aceyl group. A pretty simple thing to do because LSD is a pretty "slutty" molecule. It'll combine with practically anything.
Most "chemists" wouldn't worry about making ALD for sales on the streets anyway because:
1. It would reduce the yield of LSD,
2. LSD is a more potent trip.
3. ALD is more fragile than LSD, but it decomposes into LSD, so why bother? By the time you've got your blotters out onto the street, it's already going to be mostly LSD again.
Apparently, that "Morning Glory Seeds" process that you see in the anarchist's cookbook and the such is one way of extracting ALD-25 from a natural source, with about "250 seeds = one trip"
ALD is apparently less of a bad headfuck than LSD. From numerous reports I found on the net, they say pure ALD is "smoother" than LSD, that is, there is less chance for a freak out or bad trip.
And LSM-775? I'd guess it'd be easy to make as well, because as I said before, LSD is a real whore.
Oh, and an addition to the "set and setting" discussion we're also having, LSD affects you dependant what type of person you are (physically, mentally, spiritually) and also when you take it. The brain's chemical storehouse changes from hour to hour, so there's going to be a different reaction set up depending on what chemicals are flying around in your melon.
Another thing to think about is that there might also a threshhold for fullblown "visual" effects. A psychotic dose of around 500 mics. might do the trick but the chance is IT WILL FUCK YOU UP SERIOUSLY unless you've got a stable mind, you're experienced in the use of LSD, and you're damn lucky.
So don't try THAT at home, kids.
[ 28 May 2002: Message edited by: Fetish Jester ]
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I dont know enough about LSD chemistry to add anything overly meaningful other than that there is nothing backyard about anyone who can synthesise LSD.
I'll go out on a limb and say it is THE most difficult commonly used illicit synthetic drug to manufacture. (obviously there are drugs which would be very hard to manufacture such as cocaine and salvinorin but as they are naturally occurring u dont have to)
It is unstable; the precursors are very hard to obtain (only LSA from morning glory seeds or ergotamine from migraine tablets would be within the reach of anyone not involved in commercial production; and even then u need to be able to obtain diethylamine); everything must be extremely pure; and it takes an enormous degree of skill and laboratory experience to pull it off.
I once read somewhere that there was only a handful of large-scale LSD manufacturers in the world; and hence its not surprising since the explosion of MDMA its become a drug which for most people is unobtainable.
Getting back to backyard illicit drug manufacture. If u drew a spectrum with degree of difficulty/skill required, time needed, reagent/equipment specifity, quality produced, rarity of manufacture in the community, etc then METH would be at the bottom (thanks to pseudoephedrine) and imo LSD would be high at the top.
Also if the LSD synthesis is screwed up, the LSD in simply inactive; there isnt anymore potent chemical we know of u could produce; nor is the dose on the blotter enough to cause anyone any problems whether its a chemical formed accidently or one used in the reaction.
To give u an idea, the dose on the blotter is so small, that for it to be a chemical which could kill you, would mean it was amongst the most toxic substances known to man (e.g nerve gases) If there is one drug which is "safe" when in comes to adulterants or poor synthesis its LSD.
(i know this hasnt really answered any questions, but i thought some background when it came to LSD synthesis would be good; i very muhch doubt that anyone who can manipulate the lysergic amide family would bother synthesising anything other than LSD. A debunking of silly urban myths such as some trips have other chemicals contained on the blotter which can "fuck u up", "make u crazy", "are much more dangerous than LSD" etc is always needed also)
[ 28 May 2002: Message edited by: Biscuit ]
[ 28 May 2002: Message edited by: Biscuit ]
 
^
16.gif
: Excellent info above, big thanks to all contributors.
BigTrancer :)
 
Thanks Fetish Jester & Biscuit.
What they've said backs up what I have said - there's no chemical reason for blotter paper with more or less bodyload, more or less mental effects nor visual effects. It all comes down to set & setting... But, arguably on a deeper level than most other drugs... As Fetish Jester put it
LSD affects you dependant what type of person you are (physically, mentally, spiritually) and also when you take it. The brain's chemical storehouse changes from hour to hour, so there's going to be a different reaction set up depending on what chemicals are flying around in your melon.
Cheers guys! I lay my quandary to rest :)
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Agreed apollo except there is one important variable; the DOSE of LSD on the blotter; obviously a 50 microgram dose of LSD is entirely different to a 200 microgram dose, especially for an inexperienced user.
A drug like MDMA doesnt change the "form" of its effects greatly as the dose increases; LSD is entirely different; similar to DXM with its 4 dose plateaus.
 
True Biscuit, but that was an underlying assumption... :)
Is there any possible way, chemical boffins, to measure the amount of LSD in a square of blotter paper? I know it's fucking miniscule quantities... But, I'm gonna put the question to ya anyway.
 
^^^
Without destroying the sample, no.
You need to run it through a Gaschromatograph or some other swanky sounding machine that costs more that what you or I'd make in a year.
I also guess that if you could set up a micro apparatus, you could attempt a titration with the right chems. This would also destroy the sample.
There is a spot test for testing for the exsistance of LSD, but again that's the exsistance of it, and not the amount.
 
i've read of back-yard ways to detect if LSD is present, but there is no easy (read: non-lab) way to quantify
M
 
Okay, thanks to www.erowid.org for this info on field testing for the presence of LSD.
Following are step-by-step instructions for field testing blotter for LSD
Extract a section of the blotter with a minimal amount of ethanol. (enough to leave you with a few drops of liquid)
Put a drop of the extraction on a 4-(dimethylamino)-benzaldehyde impregnated piece of filter (or chromatographical) paper.
Allow to dry.
Put one drop of concentrated hydrochloric acid (muriatic acid will work) on one side of the paper. A colored front should migrate over the paper (concentrating the color).
A purple colored ring will appear (changing to blue 30-60 minutes later) if alfa or beta unsubstituted indoles are present (the whole paper will color if large amounts are present). This purple / blue coloring signifies the presence of LSD.
According to the source, this simple field test is able to detect 7.5 micrograms (ug) of lsd without a problem (typical doses were listed as 75-250 micrograms; you should get that lucky or unlucky for that matter)
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