Benzos + Barbs = Danger, But How Much?

[Alex000]

So, I take alprazolam daily. I have been on about 2 to 3 mg for maybe 6 weeks. Before that I was on average taking 1.5 mg clonazepam for maybe 8 weeks. So I have accumulated some benzo tolerance, not a giant tolerance, but some.

Anyhow, I wanted to know if lowish dose barbs (50 - 100 mg butalbital) would be okay to combine with moderate to higher dose alprazolam (1.5 - 2 mg). I know benzos and barbs combined are a real no-no, but would this combo be very dangerous in nature? I need my Xanax everyday, but wouldn't mind a little fun fucked upness especially since I can't my hands on any opiates yet. :( I've taken 50 mg butalbital on top of my Xanax doses spaced out, but haven't taken a large dose of alprazolam along with 50 - 100 mg of butalbital. Would this combo have me falling down, slurring speech, stuporous? Higher dose benzos I can usually maintain myself enough, but how hard would this combo hit? I don't really mind being obviously impaired, but don't want to be out of control, with complete amnesia either. Let's say I decide to dose high and take 100 mg butalbital with 2 mg alprazolam, would I be able to even stay awake? Would the results be disastrous? Also, which should I dose first, probably the butalbital right?

BTW, I do feel 50 mg butalbital, even when I wasn't taking benzos everyday. I say this because a lot of people say butalbital is a shitty barb.

[K'd-OUT-in-AZ]

As this is a harm reduction site I would highly advice against that. The LD50 for barbiturates is very low which means it doesn't take much more than the recommended dose to OD and adding a moderately high dose of a benzodiazepine equals danger!

[Alex000]

Yes, I am aware. I assume conciousness would be lost before death though, correct?

[K'd-OUT-in-AZ]

Yes it would. Personally I've been prescribed the two at the same time but it is dangerous. I didn't tell the doctor prescribing it (Butalbital) that I was also on Klonopin. Don't know if I would have gotten it.

[Alex000]

Would this this cocktail (2 mg alprazolam, 100 mg butalbital) make it impossible to stay awake? It would preferably be used in the daytime. Would this induce stupor? How much synergism is going to take place?

[Psychedelic Jay]

Butalbital is just not potent enough to have the standard worry associated with most of the barbs.

Do not expect knockout power, but a smooth cool calming high with a higher sedation than benzos, but way less than more potent barbs.

To a novice 100mg of butalbital and 1.5-2 mg of xanax is fine. This combo is prescribed along with painkillers... For really, really, really brutal headaches....

[K'd-OUT-in-AZ]

They would have synergy and I guess at those doses it could be alright, I mean I have but I've done very dangerous things. I was prescribed 8mg of Klonopin when I was prescribed it and it didn't do too much but I had massive tolerance. But still not recommended.

[ro0ga]

This is a tough question to answer because the effects vary a lot from person to person, everyone has a different tolerance. Some people can handle boatloads of CNS depressants and be fine, while other people are very prone to the sedative effects and can have serious consequences such as respiratory depression or worse. Combining the two will certainly create a synergistic effect, the degree depends on your tolerance and body size. I think it'd be better to NOT combine them, and if you so desire a more hypnotic effect than what you're already taking, just take a slightly larger dose than usual of either one by itself.

Not that I recommend the combo, but taking the butalbital along with the xanax is akin to having a bit of alcohol with the xanax. If you drink often you may have a cross tolerance to barbs.

[K'd-OUT-in-AZ]

Correct, if you drink you will have a cross tolerance to barbiturates and benzodiazepines as all these CNS depressants act in the same way. So if you are tolerant to one, you will be tolerant to another.

[Alex000]

Okay well, today was the combo. I felt okay as I do have a pretty established benzo tolerance, and have taken butalbital a handful of times since the summer. It was about 9 hours ago, and I had a pretty good time. I took only 50 mg butalbital with 2 mg alprazolam, instead of 100 mg butalbital. I dosed the butalbital 20 minutes before the alprazolam as I wanted them to hit at about the same time. The effects were definite. Markedly increased disinhibition, mood lift, sedation, increased anxiolysis (especially with social anxiety, and obsessive anxiety), slight ataxia, slight amnesia. I found the effects to be most pronounced and enjoyable for maybe the first four hours. The effects of course continued on, and I steel feel pretty calm. It didn't fuck me up as much as I thoght it would, but I don't normally seek that in drugs. This time, however, I did want a strong experience. It was pretty noticeable, but I was pretty much able to keep myself together, well for the most part 8).

Alprazolam isn't euphoric in and of itself, but I haven't decided if butalbital is. Butalbital certainly isn't euphoric like opiates are, but I think it does have a special something to it that benzos lack. It is a fun drug, and I think until now I might have overlooked that some. I know benzos and barbs combined are extremely dangerous, and wouldn't recommend this combo to anyone without serious tolerance, even then it isn't the safest, but for me I don't think it is going to get very dangerous. I want to try this combo again, but am thinking of upping the butalbital dose, and keeping or lowering the alprazolam dose. Would 50 mg butalbital + 2 mg alprazolam be significantly different than 100 mg butalbital + 2 mg alprazolam? I'm really growing fond of butalbital with opiates out of the picture temporarily, so I might do this combo tomorrow or the next day. It produces such delicious dishinbition :D.

[AlphaOdure]

I had a tolerance of 2000mg of butalbital a day.. and to sleep at night? I was basically putting myself in a barbitic coma (you couldn't wake me up--phenibut does the same thing oddly enough?)--anyway, long story short since i've told it several times here on this board: I took my night dose 500mg; accidentally took another dose, it was at least 700mg b/c i had forgotten I took my night dose already. I ended up in the ICU for 12 days, on a ventilator for 2-3 days (i don't remember, i was still out of it). The first day, my family freaked b/c my pupils weren't reacting to any light stimuli early on in the ER.


I was on IV lorazepam/ativan 2mg every 2 hours, but i still went through severe delirium tremens- i ripped the IV out of my neck & it took 5 people to restrain me b/c i thought I was in prison and was trying to escape (ripping a neck IV out is VERY dangerous.. if any bacteria gets into a pulled out IV register-spot in your neck? Fucking any type of germ, bacteria, or virus that are typically harmless can pass straight through your blood brain barrier & fuck up your brain big time--if not kill you). I still had a seizure 1 definite seizure, but possibly two. Anyway, was sent off to a psychiatric hospital for 32-35 days (the days run together in places like that; in some ways its worse than county)..


But first: my first stint at this hospital was about a month & a half prior & it was a SELF admission (which dumbfounded the admission doctor, the admission nurse, & the TPWs). Was about a 12-13 day stay, they had me on phenobarbital, 4 99.2mg pills, 4x a day; w/ 30mg temazepam night & IM or subcutaneous (couldn't tell difference) of diazepam, 100mg to control panic attacks when my BPM were over 130 (mine's usually 60-90.. were about 90-110 w/ the pheno & nightly temazepam). I was absolutely fine, a bit edgy during the--in my opinion--WAY too quick wean. Was sent home w/ 2400mg gabapentin & 30 day supply 30mg temazepam.


But, i flipped the first day & relapsed.. I was weaned ENTIRELY too fast; this requires at least 1 month, if not longer of weaning in my opinion. But I had it rough. ended up in the ICU situation & was back in the same hospital for those 30-some days the 2nd time; and after the ICU? They didn't get me shit but gabapentin 900-fucking-milligrams, despite having two seizure "events" (call them "events" b/c they refused to bring me to a hospital nor treat me w/ benzodiazepines or pentobarbital.. or thiopental to stop the event; no they just let the brain damage keep occurring w/ THAT & the delirium tremens). Utter hell. full 3 weeks I was out of it (at least ativan hit the worst of it i suppose; but the mental shit REALLY starts around day 6-12; physical symptoms are the first 1-6 days or so for short-intermediate barbiturates); I was smoking imaginary cigarettes; thinking i was at work & having full-blown conversations; thinking I was at my mother's, thinking the shit going on in Crimea at the time (i'm into geopolitics) on was happening BECAUSE of me, AND that Russia was talking to me through the TV & was taking over my body--i kept asking the doctor & nurse, "where's Matt? WHERE'S MATT?"--they kept saying, "MATT, i can't answer.


The reason barbiturates are stronger, more euphoric, more effective antiepileptics is b/c for one they're positive allosteric modulator at the barbiturate/picrotoxin receptor on GABA-A (instead of the benzodiazepine GABA-a receptor-binding site)--BUT more importantly, they also act as AMPA antagonists--which block glutamate; this causes anesthesia w/ fast acting barbiturates, analgesia, euphoria, etc. BUT- since it completely blocks glutamate? It completely shuts down your built-in central nervous system "back up system" to keep it functional. It makes barbiturates very dual effective, especially for analgesia+anxiety situations (aka, tension migraines).. however, they have such a short margin of error between medicinal & lethal effects.


SO: this is why barbiturates are so dangerous compared to benzodiazepines. Benzodiazepines just act on GABA-a BZP binding sites; while certain GABA-a BZP subunits act just efficiently as anticonvulsants/antiepileptics as AMPA antagonists--which is where barbiturates get their antiepileptic, anticonvulsant effects--but they fully block glutamate, remember, the CNS's "back up" system to keep you ALIVE & breathing. While benzodiazepines exert the same action but by not fully blocking glutamate (& thus not risking death so easily w/ benzodiazepine overdose compared to AMPAr antagonists/barbiturate overdoses)

[Alex000]

AlphaOdure, I do appreciate this response, even if I created this thread over three years ago. But, your response is still very relevant to my general situation - one in which there is butalbital often available and sometimes relatively copious. My dose hasn't topped 200 mg per single dose, nor exceeded more than half a gram or so in a twenty-four hour period. I don't take it habitually, but do take it here and there, with a usual dose of 100 mg. I will say one thing it always does is surprise me just how much a subsequent dose, or doses, adds onto the first when I've already seemed to feel the first fade away. I take it, but I definitely have a better idea of how barbiturates work on the mind and body from the aforementioned three years of experience. But, your story is sobering - no pun, intended. I do thank you for it, again.