• 🇳🇿 🇲🇲 🇯🇵 🇨🇳 🇦🇺 🇦🇶 🇮🇳
    Australian & Asian
    Drug Discussion


    Welcome Guest!
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

xtc deaths on the increase

tranquilo

Bluelighter
Joined
Apr 1, 2000
Messages
1,077
More proof that not only is education the key but that clubs and the 'rave' scene and MDMA don't really mix.
http://www.observer.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,515254,00.html
*****************
Deaths from the drug ecstasy are at a record high, with the rate of people dying after taking it almost trebling so far this year.
An average of eight people have been killed by the drug annually since it first started being used 'recreationally' in the UK in the late Eighties. Around 90 people have died in all. But this year has seen at least 11 deaths and experts fear as many as 25 deaths could be recorded by the end of 2001.
Last week two young men died after taking ecstasy at a rave in London. Stephen Brett, 19, and Bret Gilkes, 20, both took at least one pill with a five-pronged crown stamped on it on Saturday night. They later collapsed and were rushed to hospital. By Tuesday both were dead. A third man remains critically ill in hospital.
In May two female teenage students died after taking so-called 'super-strength' ecstasy pills. The pictures of the bloated body of Lorna Spinks, 19, shocked the nation. Subsequent analysis by police showed that both women had taken pills from a batch that was coloured lime-green and stamped with a euro symbol. They contained 129mg of MDMA, the active ecstasy ingredient, nearly 50mg more than is normally found in a single pill.
Police initially said that they feared the pills that killed Brett and Gilkes last week contained strychnine, the rat poison, or had been part of a 'rogue' batch.
But on Friday police said that analysis of the pills revealed normal levels of MDMA and were not contaminated. The most likely cause of death was heatstroke.
Det Supt Adrian Maybanks, of Scotland Yard's Serious Crime Group, said preliminary tests showed Brett, from Surrey, died from liver and kidney failure.
Dr John Ramsey, head of the toxicology unit at St George's Hospital medical school in London, has been analysing drugs found in clubs and pubs in British cities for three years. 'Most deaths are caused by MDMA. Tablets contaminated with something toxic are extremely rare,' he said.
Though police in Surrey recently warned of 'polos' - ecstasy tablets laced with heroin - Ramsay said he had never come across any such mix. 'We do find ephedrine and ketamine and other drugs sold as ecstasy but not usually mixed with it. They are not generally life-threatening.'
Experts say that the majority of deaths are caused by the conditions in which ecstasy is taken rather than the drug itself. MDMA simultaneously raises the body temperature while inhibiting the body's natural mechanisms for regulating its heat.
'Once the body temperature reaches 40C (104F) everything falls apart. A crowded, badly ventilated club is exactly the worst place you could possibly imagine for taking ecstasy,' one expert said. 'People want to blame contamination, but that's a comforting myth.'
The rave at which Brett and Gilkes died was in a nightclub under the arches of London Bridge. It was a very hot night and some reports suggested the ambient temperature inside the club had reached 40C. Seven people were rushed to hospital as dozens collapsed. Police are investigating ventilation systems.
Harry Shapiro, of the charity Drugscope, said the increase in deaths might be linked to a lack of drugs education.
'Many of the young people now taking ecstasy may not have been exposed to the same sort of harm reduction advice prevalent a few years ago,' he said. 'They are not following the basic rules that first-generation clubbers grew up with.'
There is growing pressure for better medical provision in clubs as well as for some kind of facility allowing users to check the strength of the pills they intend to to take. Police sources said last week that they feared such a move would legitimise the use of the drug. They urged all club owners to take extra safety measures such as providing free drinking water and avoiding overcrowding.
Ecstasy has only been linked to the deaths of 90 people; experts say that many more will have been killed in car accidents and similar incidents in which ecstasy has played a part. They point out that 75 young people die from glue sniffing each year and receive far less publicity.
 
(cue biting australian sarcasm)
IF ONLY MDMA USE WERE TAXABLE, THEN WE COULD HAVE MASS ABUSE OF THE SUBSTANCE NATIONWIDE, A SKYROCKETING DEATH TOLL FROM IRRESPONSIBLE BEHAVIOUR EXERTED BY THE SOCIAL CONDONING OF ITS AB-USE, AND AND JUST THINK(joy!), THE GOVERNMENT COULD STILL CONTINUE TO TURN ITS BLIND EYE TO THE MATTER -AS IT DOES SO WELL RIGHT NOW-, ONLY THEN(!), IT WOULDNT HAVE TO SPEND ANY OF ITS WELL EARNED(?) MONEY ON 'DRUG WARS' TO QUELL THE PROBLEM, JUST A FEW "DONT DROP AND DRIVE" CAMPAIGNS AND A SUBSIDISATION OF SOME "PHENETHYLAMINES ANONYMOUS" GROUPS.
Building up hope that MAYBE someone has accurately defined the parameters of our culture and then smashing it with more sensationalistic SHIT... Does this sort of reporting piss anyone else off? or am I the only one.
=K9=
[email protected]
 
AND WHO ARE THESE "EXPERTS" GODDAMIT ? ! ?
If they ACTUALLY had a name and a mailing address we could ACTUALLY retrieve official documentation of these statistics, predictions and opinions.
Opinions that, in my view, are a 'first' for any kind of expert body to admit to.
I mean face it: its not so much the substance itself but the 'conditions we use it in' and our irresponsibilty that cause these deaths..
This is something we've ALL known for a *VERY FUCKING LONG TIME*. Do we really need to wait until the "Un-named Experts" say it is so before we believe it...?
Just because I cannot document these admissions doesn't mean they are not valid.
Given my 'outspoken - fight to the death' nature, I have had many a debate with GP's (in a variety of places including one latenite train last week.. made for an amusing scene as EVERYBODY JOINED IN.), as to the validity of the MDMA classification and media exposure. Many a qualified doctor(not ALL but im glad to say 'most) have I spoken to that have 'very much been inclined to believe' that my MDMA use was the least of my health worries. Some are bolder and go as far as to say "I dont believe it's dangerous". I find it shameful that these official medical opinions can go unheard for fear of placing their name to them in a public forum/media. Such a doctor would im sure, be persecuted by way of media weight in his practice and MAYBE eventually struck off the medical roster...
What a fantastic point about glue-sniffing.
It KINDA, puts our habits in perspective.
Anna Woods died from acute hyponatreamia that stemmed from her MDMA ingestion. (Does anyone here actually know HOW MUCH water one has to drink and in what space of time one has to drink it in order to precipitate this... it would shock you. I mean, MY GOD did her friends think she was a fish?!)
There is the same possiblilty that Anna could very well have died that very same night by falling down a flight of stairs in a drunken stupor from a pub crawl.
Slowly as she goes, in the fight for understanding, acceptance, and education.
=K9=
[This message has been edited by #K9# (edited 01 July 2001).]
 
Does that look to anyone else as if it's a half arsed attempt to scare us?
People will die from heatstroke when taking MDMA if they don't take the proper precautions... We know this.
 
Clubs without cold water taps make me soo angry. I personally enjoy water guns, and good ventilation. This would mean less overheating. is this coherant english? no.
 
this is maybe a weird/stupid thing to say but i just dont see myself dying from pills unless there was bad bad shit in them.
-that comment about clubbers being more informed in the past seems like total bullshit, theres way more info around these days. everyone knows to drink water, but not too much water, sip it dont gulp it down, blah blah blah.
- im probly wrong on this but it seems logical that the more mdma in your pill, the more likely you are to sit or your arse going 'woaw' for most of the night and therefore, you are less likely to overheat.
maybe its the naivety/naiveness (delete whichever sounds stupider) of youth but i think i know enough that mdma wont kill me.
 
Uhhh... 129mg of MDMA won't kill anyone (with the possibility of an allergic reaction).
Overheating while dancing will.
I hate this kind of propaganda.
MDMA technically was not the cause of her death.
At least they could give the public accurate information instead of this hyped-up bullshit. (I on the other hand would love to take a pill containing 129mg of MDMA!)
[This message has been edited by shoe (edited 01 July 2001).]
 
Its that sort of undue and persuasive bullshit that causes society to react so negatively to mdma and the like..
I'm not saying that everyone should happily scream "yay for mdma", but whats wrong with having an open-mind?
All this article does is use shock-tactics and circumstancial evidence thats simple enough to believe.. And, what's sad, is most people would walk away from reading this article with the desired negative views..
It's about time a more-informed and educated view is exposed, and brought out. The public deserve to know the truth about drugs, not some manipulative attempt to scare people away..
[This message has been edited by CynaKill (edited 01 July 2001).]
 
You people amaze me. On the occasions there have been reports of Ecstasy related deaths that blame the drug alone, the cry goes out "It wasn't the MDMA it was heatstroke or excess water consumption, bring on the harm reduction education, etc. etc.".
Take a good look at the following quotes...
But on Friday police said that analysis of the pills revealed normal levels of MDMA and were not contaminated. The most likely cause of death was heatstroke.
Experts say that the majority of deaths are caused by the conditions in which ecstasy is taken rather than the drug itself. MDMA simultaneously raises the body temperature while inhibiting the body's natural mechanisms for regulating its heat.
Harry Shapiro, of the charity Drugscope, said the increase in deaths might be linked to a lack of drugs education.
'Many of the young people now taking ecstasy may not have been exposed to the same sort of harm reduction advice prevalent a few years ago,' he said. 'They are not following the basic rules that first-generation clubbers grew up with.'
Admittedly, there are parts of that article that could have been written with less “dramatic flair”, but that is the newspaper business and is not only restricted to drug commentary. There have been far worse and grossly miss informative news stories that justly deserve the criticisms levelled at them but I don’t put this one into that category.
Re-read some of the posts in this thread and re-read the article and then tell me exactly who is overreacting.
It is not my intention to start any type of flame war here but surely you don’t think statements such as
This is something we've ALL known for a *VERY FUCKING LONG TIME*. Do we really need to wait until the "Un-named Experts" say it is so before we believe it...?
and
People will die from heatstroke when taking MDMA if they don't take the proper precautions... We know this.
are somewhat ridiculous?
No, most of us don’t need to be reminded of the need to replace lost fluids or not to overdo the water consumption but where is the harm in mentioning it? I’ll bet the families of those that have died because they were unaware of these facts wish there had been more attention given to the few simple precautions that some take for granted. Take a good look at the second part of Harry Shapiro’s comments.
A quick scan through some of the posts on Bluelight will confirm the truth of this statement.
------------------
And the Mission is the Mouse...
 
Thank you Bootlegger for your sensible reply. I don't think that this is in anyway a 'scare-mongering' story and was published by a British newspaper which (unlike the small-minded antipodean press) has a balanced and informed view of the drug scene, and has for many years supported the decrimilisation of cannabis.
Whist not wanting to labour a point it seems that the problem with this board is that it is now full of people who not only (think they) know everything about drugs but think that their 'knowledge' will some how make its way by osmosis to the other hundreds of thousands of users. Yet, the example they set is of knee-jerk reaction "oh that can't be right" without even reading fully the facts as presented. Thank you to Bootlegger for saving me the job of pointing out the relevant passages that people obviously didn't read.
The mention about glue-sniffing at the end of the article actually infers (a bit too sophisticated for many of you it appears) that directly related MDMA deaths are still rare yet receive far more publicity than other social problems in the UK. If this is not 'pro-xtc' then you really are living in cuckoo-land.
Anyway, this story will make it to the fatal shores soon and then you will see some sensationalism.
In the meantime ask yourself:
should pills = any death?
when was the last time you helped a stranger?
is education finite?
 
Although my first impression was indeed negative towards the article, I can see that they do disregard mdma as the primary blame for the deaths.
However I still firmly believe that the first couple of sweeping statements are powerful enough to persuade readers of otherwise, and its a fact that many readers simply skim through the first few lines of an article, and the negative views are all they see.
I think its important to know who exactly this article was intended to be read by... Although it eventually does forgive mdma for being the cause of death, it does so in a way that still leaves a question in the readers mind.
The article was clearly intended to scare those readers, whether it was meant to make people more aware of harm-minimisation, rather then avoiding the drug altogether is another thing, but I think their purpose was clear.
 
There seems to be an ever pervasive problem when dealing with issues relating to recreational drug use because all to often opinions fall into two equally polarised and illogical categories:
Category 1. "Drugs are EVIL"
You know the line, 'drugs are bad, mmmkay...' people of this persuasion hold an aversion to the whole idea of drug use, and favour extreme notions of punishment and prohibition at the expense of a large measure of rationality. They will always emphasise the negative aspects of drugs, regardless of any proported or established benefits. Their one-eyed veiws and heartfelt belief that they are fighting for a virtuous cause makes educating and negotiating with these people near impossible.
Category 2. "Drugs are GREAT"
These people often provide a perfectly contrasting reflection with the first group. These people are so attached to the positive notions of drugs that they de-emphasise the potential and actual risks and problems accociated with their use. They view evidence or opinions to the contrary of their viewpoints as 'disinformation' and an attempt to deprive them for some reason of what they believe is a personal right to regulate their activites. Drugs are frequently touted as an attractive solution to many social problems, rather than their cause. Legalisation is viewed as the best outcome, and their belief that dugs are being denied to the population due to some sinister ulterior motive on behalf of the government/mass-media/corporations makes negotiation and education of these induviduals equally difficult.
This is somewhat generalised and overdone, but it does show that there sadly seems to be the same kind of petty kneejerk reactions on both sides of the drug debate... Until people start to examine information objectively and on its merits I fear little headway in this issue will be made. Drugs are neither ultimately good or bad, they exist within an expansive grey area. We may view the media as sensationalist at times, but I see the same bizzare opinions in reverse everytime I go out. When people start ending up in body bags you can't expect the mainstream media to go about beating the drum on how dammn good MDMA is and that its only just a few people that get killed because they were a little stupid... Thats crap. Drugs are dangerous, and on occasion they DO kill people. If you cant accept that fact and deal with the risks instead off pissing all over anything and anybody that says otherwise... I think its a little delusional, shares the same flawed reasoning as those you frequently rant against.
------------------
The woods are dark and deep, and you have miles to go before you sleep...
 
..and you in turn, amaze me bootlegger:
I am the first to recognise that they were NOT blaming the substance itself for MDMA use but the futility of the argument over cause and effect bringing about an eventuation is frustrating... they print this shit for no other reason than to sit and indignantly spit out what little knowledge they have of our culture and wait and see what part of our utopian drug partaking world the subsequent flames burn.
So again I repeat: We all know this already. so why not focus on something of more consequence not of more illegality.
If someone were to attempt to prohibit alcohol overnight (like the US did to E on June30th1985) there would be mass riots (probably alcohol fueled, how ironic) and people would sprout the same sort of stuff you've just shot us down for, ie: "its not the alcohol but the hard blow to the head on the windscreen when they crashed their car that killed them...".
...and, in more cases than MDMA, some of them ARE caused by the substance. PEOPLE DIE FROM alcohol poisoning, and cancer, but of course thats a horse of a different colour...
smile.gif

And I do NOT take ANY precautions for granted.
Ask ANY of my mates exactly who is the most concerned for their welfare when out on the dance floor.. and im quite proud to predict that they'd say it would be me. Its something I dont mind doing and I always manage to keep track of whats going on no matter what state I find myself am in. I enjoy being aprt of the 'circle of friends' watch-dog.
Sure I go hard myself.. but that is me exercising my right to test my limits and get completely troppo... this is NOT safe... I KNOW this...
...but in turn I have a number of people who I like to find myself accountable to. Who I trust would tell me to hold off for a bit, or "come sit down and talk to me", Should they be as careful as I.
Irresponsibility not Use.
Behaviour not Substance.
[This message has been edited by #K9# (edited 04 July 2001).]
 
what a can of worms we have opened again!!
great post bootlegger
i think the part of the article which strikes me most is:
"Dr John Ramsey, head of the toxicology unit at St George's Hospital medical school in London, has been analysing drugs found in clubs and pubs in British cities for three years. 'Most deaths are caused by MDMA. Tablets contaminated with something toxic are extremely rare,' he said.
Though police in Surrey recently warned of 'polos' - ecstasy tablets laced with heroin - Ramsay said he had never come across any such mix. 'We do find ephedrine and ketamine and other drugs sold as ecstasy but not usually mixed with it. They are not generally life-threatening."
ummmm.........dosent one paragraph rule out the other?
hmmmm.........PMA wheres that mentioned?
------------------
"ill never try an E" quote from me june1999(and i didn't untill about 40 pills later)
 
See... madmick19 knows what he's on about.
The powers that be, that print this crap, are clutching at straws to try and make themselves a mat of propoganda and stigma. They will print any stupid piece of 'news' they get (provided it isnt positve of course, all the positive stuff and ANYTHING that might give some accurate perpective gets very conveniently omitted), no matter HOW inconsequential and/or flimsy.
Ultimately, they dont know jack shit, but want you to think they do.. this topic has lost its saddle and is now officially dead. im not flogging it anymore, so by all means flame away....
smile.gif
 
Some people have absolutely lost the fucking plot.
Think about who the article is aimed at... go on, actually think about it.
It's aimned at Jo Blow on the street, not educated ecstacy user K9, or whoever else. Jo Blow now knows that adulterants in his Ecstacy are uncommon, and that, yes folks (!), ECSTACY (in pure form, high doses) CAN CAUSE DEATH. It may be by people not knowing what the fuck they are doing, it may just be bad luck, but an article like this (which i thought opens everyones eyes, even if a little bit swayed towards newspaper style, but what do you expect) can show those people, that hey, maybe there is a little more we need to know before eating 10 pills, dancing for 15 hours and drinking either no water, or 8 litres of water.
Most people on the street know absolutely NOTHING about drugs. Most drug users still know nothing, but like to shout a lot of rhetoric and get up for a little soapbox time. Certain members of this board are all about self-promotion, bragging how good and correct their information is, showing us all how they are the true fount of wisdom for all things related to the drug sub-culture.
Get over yourself.
My personal philosophy is - you bring knowledge to the table. Know what the fuck you are getting into. Ignorance will get you hurt, or worse killed. Telling Jo Blow Public this is a hard task. He likes to drink copious amounts of alcohol, vomit a little, have a fight, beat a woman and go home and pass out. Does he think about alcohol poisioning? Probably not. When it comes to illegals the attitude is one of even more extreme bravado. Yeah, i can handle 4 of these ecstamacy thingys at once, i wonder why i feel so shit on tuesdays, just eccy tuesday man.
The public is stupid, and as the point of the tool song stinkfist is - these days you really do have to put your fist up people's asses to make them listen. Murder today - third on the news, Johnno's a smack addict -oh man thats sad, you got bashed by a gang of 8 guys at the train station - what bad luck, your car got broken into - damn punks.
Articles like that serve a purpose, there was enough truth in it, for the prudent reader to see pass some "misinformation" :)P) and gain a little something from it.
There are more than 2 sides to the drugs debate. Not all is black and white, there is a fuckload of grey. Take for example myself, i'll get fucked on anything, i will try ANY drug, no exceptions, but i am all for drugs being outlawed, i do not want to decriminalise ANYTHING. I have my reasons, here isn't the place to elaborate, but that is an example of different views based on the two sides pointed out by Airwalk (was it? - sorry if wrong).
You can't expect the type of article you want to see in a newspaper, because well, you are never going to see the headline "Study shows, ecstacy is a shitload of fun, yeah you hurt your brain a little, and you can die even with good pills, but man, if you had a pill you'd understand."
Maybe i'm just a little bit too conservative and rational.
 
So my question is...
Does MDMA itself kill these people.. or a combination of things. I think it would be unfair to blame these deaths on MDMA if it was things like
*club was too hot
*too much/not enough water
*mixed with other drugs etc.
HMMM?
------------------
*Adventure, excitement, A Jedi craves not these things*
 
DO not presume to 'tell me' what 'i expect' to see in the paper...
You have valid comments but im not going to perceptualise them right here and right now to someone who gets off on telling people to,
and I quote
smile.gif
:
"Get over themselves"
*sigh*
Consider me, "quite" over myself, very humbled, cos trust me I'd love to see things from your point of view but im really not sure if I could get head that firmly up my arse.
 
tranquilo
thanks for this article
and it saddens me that many people cannot be objective themselves about MDMA, whilst all the time bemoaning and claiming "incredible bias" from people such as media and police.
i thought it was a well balanced article which sought opinion for every opinion offered.
I know we all understand how MDMA works, but people, I am afraid to say, your average ecstasy user does not read bluelight, does not test their pills, and does not give a fuck about waiting a month for their next one. They don't know not to mix "liquid e" with grog, and they think that PMA is the new abbreviation for a religous cult.
Regardless of how responsible we are on this board as well, I believe our actions are usually decidely more "at risk" when under the influence than most of us have the social or moral conscience to own up to.
So let's have some debate about this that doesnt make us sound like angry junkies defending our habits eh?
do i sound old? hehe
later skaters
pinger
 
Top