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ErgicMergic
19-12-2011, 02:27
Random question, of no significance: Kratom contains tannins, which can permanently stain clothes/paper. I brush my teeth right after reverse toss n washing to protect my teeth, but I wonder how my stomach and intestines look, lol. Are they green? Is the stomach and intestine lining constantly being regenerated? I just wonder what my intestines look like through a GI endoscopy. ;)

BuddingPharmacist
19-12-2011, 02:31
Random question, of no significance: Kratom contains tannins, which can permanently stain clothes/paper. I brush my teeth right after reverse toss n washing to protect my teeth, but I wonder how my stomach and intestines look, lol. Are they green? Is the stomach and intestine lining constantly being regenerated? I just wonder what my intestines look like through a GI endoscopy. ;)

Probably normal.

Consider how many food additives and colorings we put in ourselves from soda alone.

I'm sure it's fine.

ErgicMergic
19-12-2011, 02:58
^What do you think of mixing different varieties (ex: Bali + Red Vein Sumatra)? There definitely is an additive synergy, like mixing different cannabis strains, but I think for the daily Kratom "burner," this screws up their tolerance, since they can't switch strains every day, keeping "strain tolerance," or "stagnant strain syndrome," as Kratomers call it, to a minimum. Using the same type of leaf (like Bali) is best used only twice a week, to keep your brain guessing.

Nib
19-12-2011, 03:58
Kratom withdrawal is peanuts compared to getting off other opiates. Sure, there will be minor discomfort, but no where near as bad as opiate withdrawal.

At your present dosage, the kratom may or may not affect you. At the very least, it would help with the withdrawals, but I would be surprised if you were to get high from the Kratom at this point.

You are looking at a dosage of 10-15g powdered leaf with your current dosage of bupenorphine, I would think. I know that is a lot, but it will probably be enough to get you out of withdrawal and help you feel ok for a while.

I have to disagree with this. First thing is 10-15 is definitely not needed to keep well from a .5mg sub habit. I'd say 5-6g should be alright.

As far as the withdrawals go, to me they are nearly as bad as traditional opiates and much more then just a minor discomfort. I was using daily 2-3x a day for about 30g total and the withdrawals fucking sucked. Restless legs like a bitch and all the other good stuff. Not to mention they start after about 7 hours since last dose. No need for an alarm clock anyway. You just wake up feeling weird/sick. Hard to explain the "weird" feeling, but it sucks.

And yes Kratom will keep your tolerance to opiates up. I could go months using only Kratom and still need 150mg+ of Oxy for a decent high.

ErgicMergic
19-12-2011, 04:19
^I agree, Kratom withdrawal can be horrid. If you read this thread, you'll see that w/d'ing off of more than 15g/day is ridiculous.

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/244946-Kratom-addiction?

Written by Xorkoth, an ex-moderator here:
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=46082 ( http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=46082)

From experience, and from what I've read, staying at 4 grams or less of good quality (from reputable vendors) Kratom, at a once daily dose, really makes withdrawals a joke compared to other opiates. 4 grams has me feeling better than 5mg hydrocodone, but 5mg hydro gives a worse w/d.

Note: Xorkoth was using premium commercial Kratom, which is weaker than super-grade. Most Kratom you buy today (from reputable vendors) is super-grade. 1g super-grade is 2g premium commercial, as per:
Erowid Kratom Dosage Chart (http://www.erowid.org/plants/kratom/kratom_dose.shtml)

jazz hands
19-12-2011, 04:55
I have to disagree with this. First thing is 10-15 is definitely not needed to keep well from a .5mg sub habit. I'd say 5-6g should be alright.

As far as the withdrawals go, to me they are nearly as bad as traditional opiates and much more then just a minor discomfort. I was using daily 2-3x a day for about 30g total and the withdrawals fucking sucked. Restless legs like a bitch and all the other good stuff. Not to mention they start after about 7 hours since last dose. No need for an alarm clock anyway. You just wake up feeling weird/sick. Hard to explain the "weird" feeling, but it sucks.

And yes Kratom will keep your tolerance to opiates up. I could go months using only Kratom and still need 150mg+ of Oxy for a decent high.

Agreed on all points.

BuddingPharmacist
19-12-2011, 20:20
^I agree, Kratom withdrawal can be horrid. If you read this thread, you'll see that w/d'ing off of more than 15g/day is ridiculous.

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/244946-Kratom-addiction?

Written by Xorkoth, an ex-moderator here:
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=46082 ( http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=46082)


From experience, and from what I've read, staying at 4 grams or less of good quality (from reputable vendors) Kratom, at a once daily dose, really makes withdrawals a joke compared to other opiates. 4 grams has me feeling better than 5mg hydrocodone, but 5mg hydro gives a worse w/d.

Note: Xorkoth was using premium commercial Kratom, which is weaker than super-grade. Most Kratom you buy today (from reputable vendors) is super-grade. 1g super-grade is 2g premium commercial, as per:
Erowid Kratom Dosage Chart (http://www.erowid.org/plants/kratom/kratom_dose.shtml)

It is still peanuts compared to opiate withdrawal, which was my point. Opiates will have you go insane, puking on the floor and in the fetal position. Kratom CAN cause some withdrawals, but if I were to give a measure to the withdrawal strength of kratom compared to opiates, Kratom would be %50 less horrible to endure at the most.

Is it going to be easy? No. But it is going to be a hell of a lot better than opiates. *shrug*

It is often a great thing to do to switch from an opiate to kratom, and then taper from there. The WDs will be easier. It has ALWAYS been this way for me. It is infinitely more pleasant and ignorable if I do it this way. I have worked with people in my support group, and they all report the same.

It isn't easy, but it is easier than full-on opiates.


^What do you think of mixing different varieties (ex: Bali + Red Vein Sumatra)? There definitely is an additive synergy, like mixing different cannabis strains, but I think for the daily Kratom "burner," this screws up their tolerance, since they can't switch strains every day, keeping "strain tolerance," or "stagnant strain syndrome," as Kratomers call it, to a minimum. Using the same type of leaf (like Bali) is best used only twice a week, to keep your brain guessing.

Hmmm.

There are really only two types of Kratom. One type is more relaxing and euphoric, and the other is more energetic. Bali falls in the first category, and MaengDa/Thai/Red-Vein falls in the second.

Mixing the two would simply intermingle the effects of both, I suppose.

As far as mixing them for tolerance's sake, it could help. One day using the euphoric type, next day using the energetic type. In theory, this would help keep the tolerance to both types lower because the body is being exposed to different alkaloids.

I often switch from extract to powdered leaf and back again. I find it helps.


I have to disagree with this. First thing is 10-15 is definitely not needed to keep well from a .5mg sub habit. I'd say 5-6g should be alright.

As far as the withdrawals go, to me they are nearly as bad as traditional opiates and much more then just a minor discomfort. I was using daily 2-3x a day for about 30g total and the withdrawals fucking sucked. Restless legs like a bitch and all the other good stuff. Not to mention they start after about 7 hours since last dose. No need for an alarm clock anyway. You just wake up feeling weird/sick. Hard to explain the "weird" feeling, but it sucks.

And yes Kratom will keep your tolerance to opiates up. I could go months using only Kratom and still need 150mg+ of Oxy for a decent high.

Depends on tolerance, strain, and other such factors.

I said 10-15g because there is an opiate blocker in the Suboxone that needs to be overcome. It blocks Kratom too, which is why that person would need more.

ErgicMergic
19-12-2011, 22:34
Depends on tolerance, strain, and other such factors.

I said 10-15g because there is an opiate blocker in the Suboxone that needs to be overcome. It blocks Kratom too, which is why that person would need more.

Not at doses of 2mg and under of bupe; at those doses, it acts as a full agonist (and a powerful one at that) at the mu-opioid receptors, thebaine derived, like oxycodone but not as euphoric or rushy. Doses that low of bupe will potentiate opiates, and not precipitate w/d. The small dose of Naloxone in Suboxone is inactive sublingually. It's actually the high binding affinity of high doses of bupe that block opiates, only Tramadol and Nucynta can be used with it, since O-Des/Tapentadol's binding affinities are even higher than bupe's.

Thanks for all the answers, man. It's nice to see the Kratom board active again. :D

Oxide
19-12-2011, 22:57
It is still peanuts compared to opiate withdrawal, which was my point. Opiates will have you go insane, puking on the floor and in the fetal position. Kratom CAN cause some withdrawals, but if I were to give a measure to the withdrawal strength of kratom compared to opiates, Kratom would be %50 less horrible to endure at the most.

Is it going to be easy? No. But it is going to be a hell of a lot better than opiates. *shrug*

It is often a great thing to do to switch from an opiate to kratom, and then taper from there. The WDs will be easier. It has ALWAYS been this way for me. It is infinitely more pleasant and ignorable if I do it this way. I have worked with people in my support group, and they all report the same.

It isn't easy, but it is easier than full-on opiates.

Kratom can be just as violent and unpleasant to withdraw from as regular full-agonist opiates.

More forgiving? Slightly.

Easier? No.

The mental aspects of the withdrawal are seriously amplified for me, not to mention the restless legs x1000. A small portion of the physical stuff is slightly less intense, but still extremely prevalent, unpleasant and is not a joke if you've built a serious Kratom dependence.

As far as using 15g+ to come off of .5mg bupe, that is totally overkill. ErgicMergic has the right idea, the naloxone is orally/sublingually inactive, and would not need any "overcoming." The 'blockade' effect comes from it's high binding affinity, as also mentioned.

The whole point to using kratom for coming off of opiates is to use the absolute smallest effective dosage possible, as least often as possible. Eating half of an ounce of Kratom would be counter-productive, at best, and is just flat out bad advice. Nib is on the right track here, though.

Also, BuddingPharmacist, please use the "Edit" function to add to a post, instead of posting multiple times.

BuddingPharmacist
20-12-2011, 00:44
Kratom can be just as violent and unpleasant to withdraw from as regular full-agonist opiates.

More forgiving? Slightly.

Easier? No.

The mental aspects of the withdrawal are seriously amplified for me, not to mention the restless legs x1000. A small portion of the physical stuff is slightly less intense, but still extremely prevalent, unpleasant and is not a joke if you've built a serious Kratom dependence.

As far as using 15g+ to come off of .5mg bupe, that is totally overkill. ErgicMergic has the right idea, the naloxone is orally/sublingually inactive, and would not need any "overcoming." The 'blockade' effect comes from it's high binding affinity, as also mentioned.

The whole point to using kratom for coming off of opiates is to use the absolute smallest effective dosage possible, as least often as possible. Eating half of an ounce of Kratom would be counter-productive, at best, and is just flat out bad advice. Nib is on the right track here, though.

Also, BuddingPharmacist, please use the "Edit" function to add to a post, instead of posting multiple times.

I am only relating my experiences. Kratom has always been half as bad in terms of withdrawal for me than other opiates, and my friends thought the same.

Back when I was getting off comparable doses of opiates to the person I was talking to, and was using Kratom to do so, I was using about 12g of powdered leaf to stay ok for the entire day. This meaning I was taking about 6g every 12 hours.

I was talking in terms of daily usage to stay withdrawal free. I thought this was what the person was asking. Next time, I will be sure to clarify each individual dose.

I'm certain that huge kratom usage would bring about some nasty withdrawals. I wasn't saying it wouldn't. I still feel, however, that kratom withdrawals are a hell of a lot less nasty than opiate withdrawals.

I meant no offense, moderator. I'm only saying what my many years of Kratom experience has taught me. :)

Oxide
20-12-2011, 00:54
You certainly have not offended me. You also don't need to explain yourself.

Take note: here on Bluelight the things you say and advice you are giving are open to interpretation. Exaggerations and hyperbole are very poor ways to get your points across here, and an even worse way to give someone advice.

That said, I think it is important to consider how people can (or even might) interpret your posts before you post them.

Back to the topic at hand though, Kratom withdrawals are certainly "more forgiving" in some respects than typical poppy-derived, full-agonist opiate withdrawals, I will agree.

But, no one should be mislead into thinking they will be any easier to deal with. I would not say they are "easier" in any sense of the word. They can be every bit as painful and unpleasant when you dig the hole deep enough, just as with opiates.

Seattle_Stranger
20-12-2011, 02:43
Kratom DEFINITELY contributes to opioid tolerance. As someone mentioned earlier, I can go months and months and months without even looking at a pill or poppy, using kratom only a couple times a week, and tolerance remains. I will maybe come across barely a evening's worth of vikes/percs every ~4-6 months so I RARELY use opiates. Just the other night, I CWE'd six 5/500 vicodins, so ~30mg hydrocodone on an empty stomach, and barely felt a thing from it. Back when I was opiate naive, 30mg of hydrocodone would've had me puking and calling 911.

However, my normal 10g dose of bali will always give me SOME effect, even if it is mild, there is always something, regardless of tolerance.

The best thing is to use them in conjunction. ;)

oxyaddict05
20-12-2011, 08:55
^YES I can confirm this. And that Kratom withdrawal is horrible. In fact, I was so surprised by how bad the withdrawal was, that I forgot quitting and went back to IV heroin. I was also amazed when I found that one bag of dope didn't get me high (Kratom straight for ~6months, no heroin in a year if I recall. )

Of course, when I kicked that heroin habit some time later, it too was horrible. I would describe it as being more horrible. But more horrible does not make plain old horrible any easier. Terrible analogy, but getting shot by a .45 ACP would be more horrible than a .22 pistol cartridge. Might be hard to be consoled by this true fact when you have a .22 lodged against your ribs.

A better analogy would be when I am too hot or cold. When I am too cold, I always debate which is worse. This leads me to conclude that being too cold is worse. Then when I am too hot, I come to the opposite conclusion. Something that sucks is not negated by things that suck more! In fact I would argue that my first every kick (tramadol) was worse than kicking IV heroin in jail. First time always sucks and leaves a lasting impression.

Or like how your first bump of coke is infinity better than your massive 1000'th line. It's more subjective than objective.

EDIT: woops I forgot my point. My point is that I always seem to conclude that different symptoms are worse and better, and will often contradict what I said the previous kick.... "AHHH these stomach cramps!! I would trade this for the kicks in a second!" 14 days later... "AHH I Can't get 30 min of sleep because of these damn kicks!! I would trade this for the cramps in a second!" True story.

trintdaddy
20-12-2011, 16:44
Here's 1 of many reasons why kratom is great - you can dump it in cold tea or orange juice or whatever, and the powder just sits on top. Stir it up - powder still on top. Take a drink and blow out powder. You can stir it real good and pay careful attention to make sure you are getting the powder wet...stick the spoon down in your cold beverage and pour it back onto the powder - the shit is still not wet. Freakin amazing man. I'm a fan.

ErgicMergic
21-12-2011, 00:46
^One of the most annoying things about Kratom, haha. If it got wet we can just mix it with a bit of water and call it a day. But nooo, you gotta be all hydrophobic. It's ok, Kratom, I still love ya. <3

Albion
21-12-2011, 01:20
If only the bugger were water soluble.

People would be shooting it up like there's no tomorrow.

jackie jones
21-12-2011, 02:18
Lately I have been consuming my kratom powder by mixing it with chocolate syrup and eating it. I find it to be the quickest way to get it down and reasonably palatable.

Seattle_Stranger
21-12-2011, 02:57
^YES I can confirm this. And that Kratom withdrawal is horrible. In fact, I was so surprised by how bad the withdrawal was, that I forgot quitting and went back to IV heroin. I was also amazed when I found that one bag of dope didn't get me high (Kratom straight for ~6months, no heroin in a year if I recall. )

Of course, when I kicked that heroin habit some time later, it too was horrible. I would describe it as being more horrible. But more horrible does not make plain old horrible any easier. Terrible analogy, but getting shot by a .45 ACP would be more horrible than a .22 pistol cartridge. Might be hard to be consoled by this true fact when you have a .22 lodged against your ribs.

A better analogy would be when I am too hot or cold. When I am too cold, I always debate which is worse. This leads me to conclude that being too cold is worse. Then when I am too hot, I come to the opposite conclusion. Something that sucks is not negated by things that suck more! In fact I would argue that my first every kick (tramadol) was worse than kicking IV heroin in jail. First time always sucks and leaves a lasting impression.

Or like how your first bump of coke is infinity better than your massive 1000'th line. It's more subjective than objective.

EDIT: woops I forgot my point. My point is that I always seem to conclude that different symptoms are worse and better, and will often contradict what I said the previous kick.... "AHHH these stomach cramps!! I would trade this for the kicks in a second!" 14 days later... "AHH I Can't get 30 min of sleep because of these damn kicks!! I would trade this for the cramps in a second!" True story.

How long have you been using kratom? How often do you use? What's your usual dose?

Also, same exact questions for your heroin/opiate usage: When did you start, how long, how much and how often?


I ask because I'm starting to think that folks who have experienced opiate withdrawals in the past will experience much harsher kratom withdrawals. Personally, I've only been moderately addicted to poppy pods, only was addicted for about half a year, and wasn't using every single day the whole time. I also never became addicted to any synthetic/street opiates despite occasional usage of pharms. Point being, I've never gone through SERIOUS withdrawals, the worst I've ever had were fatigue, cold sweats, insomnia, RLS, basically I felt as if I was fighting off the flu but never actually came down with it, lasted about a week, and that was that. My body has never experienced an intense, debilitating withdrawal, so it doesn't know what to expect from one. If your body has already experienced a horrid opiate withdrawal from an IV heroin habit, and you start withdrawing from kratom, your body may subconsciously think "Oh no!! Not this again!!!" thinking it's about to go into a heroin-like withdrawal, and go into freak-out/defense mode as a result.

I am not by any means saying that your withdrawals are "all on your head", I'm definitely not saying that, however I am saying that part of it might be your subconscious or your body's defense mechanism, kind of in the same way you might feel after getting behind the wheel of a car for the first time a few months after suffering a severe car accident...you will be anxious as fuck, probably shaking, sweating, etc.., because your body/brain remember what happened last time it was in this position. If you're expecting the withdrawals to be awful, they probably will be. Using myself as an example, I've been using kratom way, way more often than I should for the past few months, and I check myself every so often, I let supply run out and force a break for a few days while I wait for the new shipment. These days without kratom are never that bad, with the absolute worst symptom simply being CRAAAAAAVING some of that delicious liquid baby-diarrhea cocktail. I might be a tad unmotivated, slightly depressed or just not very enthusiastic, at the ABSOLUTE WORST I might get some minor cold sweats and insomnia, but even the worst of the worst symptoms disappear after a mere day. Within two days I'm sailing straight as an arrow. Then when my order of kratom gets here....HOLY wow I can't see heroin being much better than kratom on those days.... :)

Oxide
21-12-2011, 05:40
The anticipation of withdrawal is pretty tortuous in itself, I gotta agree with you there. Of course anyone who has gone through opiate withdrawal would naturally fear it happening again I think, at least on some level, you know? But I've gone through some pretty fierce kratom withdrawals, and like I was saying earlier it is certainly not going to be a walk in the park if you start digging the hole deep enough, just as with good ole full-agonists.

Glad to hear you find them bearable enough, though.

jackie jones
21-12-2011, 06:38
At what dose, frequency, and time frame did it take for serious withdrawal symptoms to develop, Oxide?

I have never to my knowledge experienced kratom withdrawals, as I tend to use it only as nice cushion during pharmaceutical/pod withdrawals.

Dimitri K.
21-12-2011, 07:05
High quality kratom powder+oxycodone+alcohol (I will admit this wasn't a good life decision. Thank god I had only had one oxy left at the time) had me as fucked up as I've ever been in my life. I puked my guts up and immediately threw away the rest of my kratom supply =D Anyways, don't underestimate kratom.

Oxide
21-12-2011, 07:19
Kratom certainly is a good cushion, haha.

It was enough to lay me up for 3 or so days, at the time I think I had used it for a few weeks straight maybe? Could have been a little bit longer. I was drinking 9-12 grams twice daily usually, made into tea.

I'm sure that timeframe is going to vary greatly person to person, though. But prolonged daily use will eventually produce withdrawal.

jackie jones
21-12-2011, 07:20
High quality kratom powder+oxycodone+alcohol (I will admit this wasn't a good life decision. Thank god I had only had one oxy left at the time) had me as fucked up as I've ever been in my life. I puked my guts up and immediately threw away the rest of my kratom supply Anyways, don't underestimate kratom.

I think the oxycodone may have potentiated the kratom a bit 8)

jackie jones
21-12-2011, 07:25
Kratom certainly is a good cushion, haha.

It was enough to lay me up for 3 or so days, at the time I think I had used it for a few weeks straight maybe? Could have been a little bit longer. I was drinking 6-9 grams twice daily usually (tea), I'm sure that timeframe is going to vary greatly person to person, though. But prolonged daily use will eventually produce withdrawal.

I just do not get it. I have tried every type of kratom from 3 reputable vendors, and even when my tolerance was nonexistent it took me at least 1/2oz to get high. Even then it is hit-and-miss.

I used to get crushed leaf, because the tea is actually not bad, but I believe kratom is not very water soluble. I get powder now.

KratomBites
21-12-2011, 07:26
I just found this. A couple days ago I posted on The Dark Side forum about Kratom withdrawal. Kratom Withdrawal is real and it is rough. Like I posted over there I was doing the Kratom FST liquid. I tried the powder once and it was not something I'd do again, I only tried it because I was spending so much on the liquid. Never tried the tea. The liquid is very expensive but hooked me fast. With it I was probably doing about 150grams of the enhanced powder twice a day in about 5 seconds. Aside from what it was costing per day I didn't realize how bad I was until I ran out a few months ago.

Since that experience with running out I've tried to quit a couple times and couldn't. Now I am quitting for real! I came close to buying more today but I didn't. Even if tomorrow is as bad as today I'm still not going to buy anymore. That has to stop and it stops now. I'm praying so much I start to feel better tomorrow. I was going to hit the sack just now but poked around the other forums and this was on top. How convenient!


With Christmas coming up and a New Year to look forward to, now is the time for me. Since I still feel horrible I'm guessing that I'm in for another day of hell tomorrow and another night of tossing and turning being unable to control my legs and just wanting to kick and kick till I'm exhausted. But I'm hoping it starts to get better soon. I didn't even know what restless leg syndrome was or that was the side effect I'm experiencing until I read it here! I don't know anything about drugs, LOL!

Now that I know all this I will never touch Kratom again. I'm also getting rid of all my oxy and stuff too. I didn't know that the euphoria was what people took those for. I always just kept them because I'm a pack-rat and figured I might need a pain killer someday. But since I've taken 7 10x375 oxys today and didn't feel any euphoria or relief at all I have to agree with Seattle_Stranger that Kratom effects oxy tolerance. I mean until today I hadn't taken an oxy or a vikodin in like 5 years so my tolerance has to be from the Kratom.

If Kratom powder was all there was I never would have ventured into this Kratom addiction. I don't even think I would have tried it. But I started with the liquid and it was easy and it was very powerful and it was legal. Things have definitely gotten out of control though! I'm done with it!

Off to bed, praying to put this hell behind me and get on with my life that in a year got completely overtaken by Kratom.

KratomBites

Oxide
21-12-2011, 07:32
I just do not get it. I have tried every type of kratom from 3 reputable vendors, and even when my tolerance was nonexistent it took me at least 1/2oz to get high. Even then it is hit-and-miss.

I used to get crushed leaf, because the tea is actually not bad, but I believe kratom is not very water soluble. I get powder now.

I got good results with as little as 6 grams or so at first, but tolerance built pretty quickly and it got near the half-oz mark, which is not cool cause that shit is expensive. I've always gotten the best results with tea, but I am partial to the taste, so I may have a slight bias.

If you use lemon juice, the tea comes out pretty good. I always used powdered leaf and fill-your-own tea bags. One tsp. per bag (approx 3 grams) and use as many bags as you need in about 2 cups of water with enough lemon juice to both cloud the water, but of course you don't want it to overpower anything. The acidity helps pull the alkaloids out. Tea probably is still not as efficient as straight eating the powdered leaf, though. But I like it better. It does cut down on some of the side effects that come with ingesting large amounts of raw plant matter, so that is always a bonus as well. haha.

trintdaddy
22-12-2011, 06:28
Would you please explain how you do this please sir?

I've been mixing mine with cold tea. The powder sits on top of the tea, I stir the shit out of it until the powder is wet, hold nose, chug.
I use as little tea as possible...maybe 1/2 cup of tea with a heaping tablespoon of powder. I used to drink it down without holding my nose but the longer I drink it, the nastier it's getting.

Looking forward to hearing how you mix it with yummy chocolatey syrup. My interest is piqued.

jackie jones
22-12-2011, 07:43
^I just mix it in a bowl with hersheys dark syrup (the kind you use to make chocolate milk), then eat it with a spoon and chase it with milk. It still does not taste wonderful, but it does help significantly.

It is so funny that with kratom as well with poppy tea, at first everyone is like "It just tastes like tea", then after a while they can barely chug it down without gagging :D

trintdaddy
22-12-2011, 09:25
No kidding. I've been taking it for a month with no problems. I mean it was nasty as hell from day 1 but yesterday was the first day it made me puke. The first 2 times I dosed, I threw it back up immediately after swallowing it. I ate half a pack of saltines, dosed like 2 teaspoons and held it down. Seems like my stomach was saying "I'm not puttin' up with this shit ANYMORE". First time I dosed with apple sauce. Layer of apple sauce then a layer of kratom. Had another bowl of sauce right there and I'd get a big spoonful of it while the foul mixture was still in my mouth then swallow. 3rd spoonful and it all came back up.

Once, when I was younger and drunk, I ate 2 cans of vienna sausages and promptly threw em all up. I would never eat another one of those nasty ass things again. The mental picture of those little wieners all over my floor will never leave my mind. Neither will the green applesauce. Difference here is those wienies never made me feel as good as the 'tom.

So I guess ill just keep on keepin' on. I like the effects as much or better than any opiate.

ErgicMergic
22-12-2011, 12:54
^No w/d relief at all from 70mg of oxycodone? damn

Public Service Announcement: Kratom FST liquids are not to be fucked with, and do not represent Kratom properly. Plain leaf is actually quite mild, and feels more like a modest/moderate dose of hydrocodone at its highest tolerated dose, not 17 times stronger than morphine like 7-OHM, which is quite plentiful in the FST liquid.

bliz62
22-12-2011, 17:22
My best experience w/ Kratom is with eating the powdered stuff...I've eaten the actual leaf also, and that worked great but I couldn't stomach any more actual plant matter. I did prob 4-5 oz of powder mixed into applesauce (with some sugar to further mask it) and then chased w/ juice. I've tried the powder in pills, have not found them nearly as pleasurable a high, not sure why though...and the pills have given me more nausea than just ingesting powder or plant straight up. The Bali and Thai were about the same for me, I tried some of the 12x stuff and it was way too sedating for my taste.

I'm not a fan of tea, if only bc it requires way too much patience and I just want to get it down and done lol.

D's
22-12-2011, 19:57
I take a piece of toilet paper (if its 2ply i carefully seprate the sheets). Next i put anywhere from 1g-2.5g in the middle of the tp square. Now i take each corner of the sheet and match them going diagonal, next thing i do is very carefully i'll twist the sheet. If you twist to hard then it will rip a hole in the sheet of tp and your precious kratom will go all over the place. Once I made one rotation or so I will tear off any slack tp on the sheet. (The smaller the "ball" is the easyer it is to swallow). Finally i place the twisted ball of kratom and place it 'toren side' facing the back if my mouth have a drink in hand, take a huge gulp of drink and swallow the kratom twist. They call this parachuting.
I normally do this 3 to 4 times using anywhere from 1g-3g. The kratom i get comes in capsules, and sofar it's the strongest kind I've been able to try. I guess everyone has their own favorite ROA, and i guess this is mine.

Oxide
22-12-2011, 21:53
parachuting it is okay, until you make a bomb too big and it busts open in your throat. :P

trintdaddy
23-12-2011, 06:32
I'm gonna try parachuting it. I'll post back on how it goes. I will be traveling tomorrow night so I'm lookin forward to dosing right before I leave. Should make for a fun trip.

i are spectre
23-12-2011, 22:20
after trying multiple vendors and various methods with kratom to no success, im going to try and make tea with this oz that arrived.

i think the key is patience, much like the pod tea when those were flooding the US market a couple years ago. boiling the piss out of this will likely break down a lot of these delicate organic compounds, which im sure happens quite a bit with the 'i want it now!' mindset of its users/abusers.

this will be an attempt to slowly steep the compound for several hours at a very mild temperature of 60C. i have a feeling this will work great.

before when i had pods, i would grind them up in a coffee grinder to powder, and SLOWLY heat the water/pod mix to a VERY mild temperature. any time i noticed boiling, i knew the brew had lost a lot of its potency. honestly, i bet leaving these compounds in a bottle of water for several weeks in a fridge would be ideal. or better yet ethanol or some other organic polar solvent. perhaps ill try an extract with 2-propanol or CCl4.

Oxide
23-12-2011, 22:42
Yes, you certainly don't want to boil the water as it will destroy alkaloids. A very mild simmer is plenty and you can even use a little less heat than that.

I went digging and I found my Kratom Tea recipe I posted several months ago:


For me, Kratom has been a real life saver. After a ton of trial and error, I finally worked up a relatively easy method for making tea.

A trick is to use press n brew tea bags, especially if you're using powdered leaf. You can of course find these at any health food shop. Cuts out all the messy filtering.

Place 1 tsp of powdered kratom in each bag

Take 2 cups of water and place it into a pot, add enough lemon juice to cloud the water (a capful or two) place that on low heat. Stick the teabags in the water.

Let it simmer for around 20 minutes, stirring often.

The resulting liquid should be dark and brown. After that it's as easy as scooping the tea bags out, and letting the liquid cool.

The tea bags can then be used to make another (much less potent) batch.

i are spectre
23-12-2011, 22:52
i actually just read over that a few minutes ago digging around in this thread, thanks bud!

im looking forward to a decent kratom experience finally. i dont understand effects were next to nil with kratom from these other vendors. i've tried every form of this stuff from dried leaf, resin, and extract.

though after all the pod tea i've made im sure this method will work. keeping low heat is the big one, with the pod tea anyway. i found best results when adding enough heat just to get it warm (almost hot around 140F/60C), turning off the heat, and covering for a couple hours... and that's what im doing now with this kratom. yeah im sure forcing all that foliage down my throat would work best, but it's not gunna happen. patience is the key to all of life's secret locked doors!

(+1hr later):
i just drank about a half litre of 1-hour, 60C, steeped and filtered kratom foliage (25g). it was putrid. i mean pod tea was bitter, but this had a nasty bite to it. the schwill was thrown back in the pot and another half litre h2o added. ill be cranking up the heat to about 80C now for this wash, then 100C for the final. that is if im not feeling as well as id like to.

Quit The Cult
24-12-2011, 08:22
I'm relatively new to using Kratom. Last night I tried out a free sample of the Maeng Da kratom, and I dosed without a scale. So, I'd guess I took from 2-5 grams worth without a tolerance. I ended up vomiting a lot two different times last night and was nauseous and dizzy all day today, barely been able to get outta bed most of the day. Did I just take too much? Or is vomiting common on low doses as well? I've had this happen once before on a smaller dosage. I felt like such shit that it has put me off using Kratom again and I have quite a good amount of the product left.

ErgicMergic
24-12-2011, 09:07
^Low doses don't usually cause nausea, but I almost threw up on 3.5 grams of Bali, so it's definitely possible. I only get nauseous on low doses when I chug a lot of water then move around too quickly. Kratom tends to cause more nausea than opiates. Since you threw up, I'm guessing you took 8+ grams.

Oxide
24-12-2011, 09:38
If you have no tolerance, that sounds like it was too much.

DexterMeth
24-12-2011, 12:18
I haven't used the powder extract for a long time. I guess I would parachute that, but personally I love making tea out of Kratom. I actually like the taste of it. Then again, whenever I get dried pods, I just break them up in my hands and chew them up, chasing with grapefruit juice. <<OD central.

i are spectre
24-12-2011, 23:31
after taking the kratom tea last night all i felt like doing was lazing in bed. shredded some electric a little bit but it grew old fast and i just wanted to lie down yet i couldnt sleep worth shit. i dont think i like kratom. it was a nice buzz for few hours though. thanks to a monster tolerance nothing really seems to work anymore. probably wouldve had me smashed years ago.

Fresco
26-12-2011, 20:35
This method will reduce your kratom withdrawal by about 95%, and it'll allow you to go to work regularly without suffering from WD's while at work. Its a true, tried and tested method:

Step 1. Try to taper down your kratom use to 2-4 grams twice or 3 times daily (I'm talking about the powder, not extract)

Step 2. Take your last 2-4 grams of powder after dinner, so around 7 or 8 PM. This will ensure a decent night sleep.

Step 3. Your WD's should start next day around noon to afternoon. As soon as you feel them coming on take the following: 1x250 mg Phenibut + 1x500 mg GABA.

Step 4. You need to take those 2 capsules every 2 to 3 hours during the first 3 worst days of your withdrawal. After 3 days you can taper it off to maybe taking them every 4 to 6 hours.

Step 5. You can also take loperamide if you get loose stool or diarrhea

And that is that, your WD's should only last 5 to 6 days at the most and you will barely feel a damn thing.

For some reason phenibut in combination with GABA works amazingly well, as opposed to phenibut alone. I believe the GABA takes care of the body WD's, and phenibut takes care of brain WD's since it does cross the BB barrier while GABA doesnt.

Good luck ;)

NeighborhoodThreat
26-12-2011, 20:55
^Sounds like a solid WD plan to me. I'd say the loperamide helps a lot too.

Glad to hear it worked for you :)

Fresco
26-12-2011, 21:20
^Sounds like a solid WD plan to me. I'd say the loperamide helps a lot too.

Glad to hear it worked for you :)
Yeah, I tried it 3 times now and every time it worked well.

So now what I do is I go crazy and party with booze and kratom on weekends, then withdraw till about thursday, and then do the whole thing over again next weekend....LOL

nAON
26-12-2011, 23:06
You realise you might end up going through GABA withdrawals if you do such a cycle regularly?

Fresco
26-12-2011, 23:17
You realise you might end up going through GABA withdrawals if you do such a cycle regularly?
I've heard of phenibut withdrawal, but I never heard of GABA withdrawals

J.Wallace
26-12-2011, 23:23
I've heard of phenibut withdrawal, but I never heard of GABA withdrawals

Sure, how do you think Xanax withdrawals work? Lack of GABA in the brain!

Fresco
26-12-2011, 23:27
I'm starting to wonder if this same phenibut/GABA combination might work in all opiate withdrawal.

This study seems to hint at it: http://www.poppies.org/cgi-bin/historical/snapshot.cgi?az=show_thread&om=53&forum=DCForumID19


Increased mesolimbic GABA concentration blocks heroin self-administration in the rat

Opiate reinforcement has been hypothesized to be mediated by an inhibition of mesolimbic gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) release that subsequently disinhibits ventral tegmental area (VTA) dopamine neurons. In support of this hypothesis, this study demonstrates that when administered directly into the lateral ventricle, the VTA, or the ventral pallidum, but not the nucleus accumbens, gamma-vinyl-GABA (GVG, an irreversible GABA-transaminase inhibitor, 20-50 microg) dose dependently blocked heroin (0.06 mg/kg) self-administration (SA), as assessed by an increase in heroin SA at low doses of GVG and an initial increase followed 1 to 2 h later by a blockade of heroin SA at higher GVG doses.

This effect lasted 3 to 5 days. In drug-naive rats, intra-VTA GVG pretreatment also prevented or delayed acquisition of heroin SA for 2 days. This GVG effect was prevented or reversed by systemic or intra-VTA pretreatment with the GABA(B) antagonist 2-hydroxysaclofen, but not the GABA(A) antagonist bicuculline. Similarly, coadministration of heroin with aminooxy-acetic acid (1-4 mg/kg) or ethanolamine-O-sulfate (50-100 mg/kg), two reversible GABA transaminase inhibitors, dose dependently reduced heroin reinforcement. Coadministration of (+/-)-nipecotic acid (0.1-5 mg/kg) with heroin, or intra-VTA or -ventral pallidum pretreatment with (+/-)-nipecotic acid (10 microg) or NO-711 (2 microg), two GABA uptake inhibitors, significantly increased heroin SA behavior, an effect also blocked by systemic 2-hydroxysaclofen, but not bicuculline.

Taken together, these experiments, for the first time, demonstrate that pharmacological elevation of mesolimbic GABA concentration blocks heroin reinforcement by activating GABA(B) receptors, supporting the GABAergic hypothesis of opiate reinforcement and the incorporation of GABA agents in opiate abuse treatment

nAON
27-12-2011, 00:19
I've heard of phenibut withdrawal, but I never heard of GABA withdrawals

Phenibut withdrawal is GABA withdrawal.

GABA drugs can help in opi WD, as they deal with a lot of the side effects, but as they don't work on same receptors it technically isn't relieving and/or prolonging the WD