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Ayn....

AmorRoark

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Jul 28, 2002
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Within the last year, I've really really gotten into Ayn Rand. After reading Anthem and The Fountianhead, my life changed. However, I'm having a hard time finding someone that shares my passion of Ayn. Probably because of my age and where I live.. :sigh:
I want someone to discuss Ayn and objectivism with because I'm not a very philosophic person. And I'm hoping I can learn to understand objectivism even better (yay)!
So!! if there's an objectivism scholar out there, reply! thanx...
 
I've heard about it, is there a chance you could briefly explain it thanks
Thanks beanergrl
[ 30 July 2002: Message edited by: Setarcos ]
 
I'm very good at writing things in an akward fashion... therefore....
My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.
— Ayn Rand, Appendix to Atlas Shrugged
Objectivism is the philosophy of rational individualism founded by Ayn Rand (1905-1982). In novels such as The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, Rand dramatized her ideal man, the producer who lives by his own effort and does not give or receive the undeserved, who honors achievement and rejects envy. Rand laid out the details of her world-view in nonfiction books such as The Virtue of Selfishness and Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal.
Objectivism holds that there is no greater moral goal than achieving happiness. But one cannot achieve happiness by wish or whim. Fundamentally, it requires rational respect for the facts of reality, including the facts about our human nature and needs. Happiness requires that one live by objective principles, including moral integrity and respect for the rights of others. Politically, Objectivists advocate laissez-faire capitalism. Under capitalism, a strictly limited government protects each person's rights to life, liberty, and property and forbids that anyone initiate force against anyone else. The heroes of Objectivism are achievers who build businesses, invent technologies, create art and ideas, depending on their own talents and on trade with other independent people to reach their goals.
Objectivism is optimistic, holding that the universe is open to human achievement and happiness and that each person has within him the ability live a rich, fulfilling, independent life. This idealistic message suffuses Rand's novels, which continue to sell by the hundreds of thousands every year to people attracted to their inspirational storylines and distinctive ideas. -William Thomas
 
I am not an objectivism scholar but I am and Ayn fan and would be interested in anything that was to be said on the subject also.
I have read a few of her books and find that many of them - not to be rude- seem to be the same- but that has no bearing on whether or not the philosophy is good. I tend to find the underlying messages interesting though I am not sure that I subscribe to them entirely. It's hard to leave out fate and greater purpose to life than just happiness. I just decided I wasn't a christian about a year ago and I am still working on what I belive exists outside of life - but I can't say that I don't believe in something greater so I can't say that this philosophy is for me but...
Definately interested in further comment
 
I agree with you in that I don't believe that everything Ayn teaches is right. I think if I completely believed in anything, I'd be lying to myself.
However, I don't believe that there is anything greater than happiness. Even when I think of things that could be greater than happiness, they eventually lead to my happiness.
Have you read The Fountianhead? One part that confused me in that was Howard and Dominique's relationship. If objectivism says to not others before yourself, AND it states taht you shouldn't put yourself before others eather, why did Howard act so selfishly? Especially the way he toyed with her love for him. What do you think????
 
Thanks for the explanation and post, it was 2 in the morning here though and I decided it would be stupid for me to think about it at that time.
Unfortunatelly, on consideration, I disagree with almost all of it, heh :)
I am a determinist (though this doesn't matter much as from our PoV there is free will).
In reality (on the politics side):
I disagree with laissez-faire capitalism being put in place, but I might well be wrong (I can see how it might work if it was implaced globally).
As long as there exist numbers like the current >60 million starving / aids in Africa then I will believe that we need to think about others more (I think there should be a minimum standard of living we should all try and support worldwide).
I like the strong support of rationalisation.
I might read one of these books to get a better idea.
 
Setarcos, I'm sure you'd enjoy reading one of Ayn's books!! If I were you, I'd read Anthem. The Fountianhead and Atlas Shrugged are really long. and if you're not too into the ideas of the book, it'll probably just drag on for you.
I don't believe that we can/should apply philosophy to current conditions. Yes, objectivism cannot fully work like it's supposed to at this time.
Some Reasons?
1. We arn't ready to give up welfare, menatally and economically.
2. Many people have a don't want to put themselves first.
3. We're still afraid of free trade/capitalism.
4. We use to a larg government controlling our lives.
There are TONS more, but yes,I realize objectivism isn't functional :-(. On a side note...what philosophies have been proven fully functional?? However, this doesn't change my mind that it is the ideal way of life, possible now or not. All I can do, is life my life for myself, as much as the governement allows me to.
Note: I just read through my last reply.. I'd like to change the use of the word 'selfish' to cruel ;-) sorry!!!
 
Ayn Rand as a writer is quite powerful and her books (even though if you read one, you read the all) are extremely entertaining. Ayn Rand, as a philsopher, is lacking imo. Objectivism isn't really saying anything new and the stuff had been already covered by the likes of John Mill, Kant, Descartes, and so forth in much gory detail. for every "howard roark" or "john galt", i could name thousands "john does" who live happy lives. if happiness is the ultimate end to every other means, ayn rand depicts the road to this gloryland treachrous and narrow.
 
Originally posted by jihan:
if happiness is the ultimate end to every other means, ayn rand depicts the road to this gloryland treachrous and narrow.
Please explain further??
Oh and your comment about Kant.
Read what Ayn Rand has to say on Kant..... yes, some of the ideas that she supports were already 'out there'. That is what most philosophy now-a-days is. Working off of other ideas, and IMPROVING them. This at which Ayn has done.
 
her view of the "ideal" man is intellects such as howard roark and john galt who were obviously given great innate abilities. yet, the ultimate goal of her philosphy is one's happiness. i dont' agree with the fact that her ideal being is the best and the only means of achieving happiness. she criticizes religion, but if religious zealots can achieve happiness through their own means, however irrational and un-objectivism it might seem, then they have reached the essence of objectivism, which is happiness. so how would rand think of that situation?
 
I think Rand belives that you can find happiness in yourself, and that you don't need religion to make you happy. However, if religon does make you truely happy go for it! Yeah I'll be the first to say that what Ayn has to say is very... unrealisitic, but I just generally think she was goin in the right direction with objectivism. Howard was the best at what he did, and she chose that because being the best would probably make Ayn's philosophy difficult to follow though. She shows that it is possible... yeah and she probably wanted to have a complete hero ;-) don't we all want our heros to be perfect????
 
i do believe that happiness is the ultimate end, myself. but i do like this quote from dostoyevsky (can't remember it verbatim)
"if you had the choice between cheap happines, and exalted suffering, what would you choose?"
i'd probably choose exalted suffering over cheap happiness but i'd also choose exalted happiness over exalted suffering.
 
Yeah I know what you're talking about with that quote. I would choose exhalted suffering as well because then I would truely be happy, because I would know the truth. So, in essence everything lead to your happiness... ya dig?
 
I attended some meetings in college on objectivism and read Atlas Shrugged and the Fountainhead. They did seem repetetive. I am not an objectivist myself.
As I read the books, it seems Ayn lines up the world into two types of people: do-gooders and hard-workers.
The do-gooders praise charity and criticize selfishness, they urge giving to the less fortunate, the less well-off.
The hard-workers are intelligent, skillful and feel they deserve to reap the benefits of their work. They resent having to surrender such benefits to others who did not put forth the work.
In the books, you are introduced to a male and female hard-worker who realize they are kindred spirits in a world filled mostly with do-gooders. The do-gooders, being in the majority and in charge, are screwing up things because, absent the profit motive, there is no quality work being done. The captains of industry, trying to show everyone they are do-gooders, brag about not being driven by the profit motive, as proven by the lack of profits. The hard-workers are ostracized for being selfish and uncharitable. So the do-gooders have the important jobs, like architects, engineers, company presidents, etc. Soon, buildings collapse, the economy plummets, trains de-rail, and essentially anarchy threatens to overwhelm the world, taking it back to the dark ages. All because the do-gooders refuse to recognize that only the profit-motive will allow quality work to flourish.
Meanwhile, our ostracized hard-workers have hidden away in a secret land of like-minded hard-workers who are making their own community without the do-gooders,where no one resents anyone else being driven by the profit motive. No one asks for any hand out. Everyone makes their way by hard work and ingenuity. For example, I recall Ayn Rand writing that the cigarettes produced in this new society tasted better to the main character than any she had ever smoked before. The cars were more beautiful, more quiet, more efficient. The foods tasted better. It was a paradise.
By this story, Ayn Rand attempted to illustrate her philosophy that greed is good. I have talked to objectivist who actually cited her books as PROOF that greed is good. I hope you all see the humor in that.
These are works of fiction. Everything that happens is made up by the author. They do not PROVE anything. There is no reason to believe the world really would work this way or that people really do act this way. All in all, I found them to be very unrealistic. How many problems do you see with the story?
Here's one: Every do-gooder is an incompetent idiot. Every genius, every person competent at anything ALSO believes in the goodness of greed. This is ridiculous. We all know that a great architect may be a Marxist, a Republican, a Neo-Nazi. Ayn Rand creates a world where every competent architect is also an objectivist, such that when the objectivists leave society you are left with all the buildings collapsing. Excuse me, but there have been many brilliant scientists, engineers--people in all walks of life-- who happen to have screwy political and philosophical views ranging from the left to the right. She assumes that a person motivated by greed will necessarily make better tasting cigarettes and coffee, more attractive cars, more enjoyable music, softer and better clothing than, say, a leftwing liberal could. (I think Cuban cigars discredits this assumption.)
Also, Ayn Rand does not deal with the practical problems of her "perfect society" of hard-workers, like what happens when one of them takes out a loan for a factory and then suffers a stroke, so he can't make the deadline for opening the factory. Or any other mishap or turn of fortune -- that can happen to the most competent of people -- leaving them destitute. At which time you would need social programs for these types of people. Also, she fails to address the principal that it takes money to make money (it doesn't, but it helps). So a new person in her perfect society may do fine, if they can afford to buy a place to live, set up their business, get the supplies they need for their business, the distribution, etc. And not all businesses are one-person shows. What about if you need employees? Who wants to be the employee in such a situation? Who wants to be the garbage man? There are jobs out there that are just not that desireable, but they need doing.
So, in the end, Ayn Rand's books illustrate her philosophy, at least to the extent that greed is good (she may have more to her philosophy not in her books). But they in no way prove that she is right and, in fact, are based on an unrealistic portrayal of people and society.
Here's a story: One day everyone in the world who was not an atheist exploded. The end.
Have I just proven that it is safer to be an atheist? That non-atheists will one day explode? No, a work of fiction proves nothing. That's why they call it fiction. Similarly, Ayn Rand's books prove nothing. But you still might enjoy reading them.
~psychoblast~
 
well, from your explanation of miss Rand, it seems that she has quite a bit in common, at least at the "philosophical" leve, with John Stuart Mills. Perhaps i would suggest reading "On Liberty", or "Utilitarianism." ( i find the former quite a bit more interesting).
(aim me and i'll let you borrow the book sometime, with all my higlights and margin notes ;) )
 
Of course her books "prove" nothing. Yes, they are fictional, but so was 1984. The book isn't there to describe what exactly our society is like. Like 1984 it described a possible world for the future, maybe a warning?
Do you really think that greed is bad? I believe that if we're supposed to listen to our natural human emotions, then greed is one of them for me. For example, when you're young when you see another child playing with YOUR toy, you want to say "get away that's mine!". Its the natural response, however, mommy comes and says NO... you must share. But why must we share? If you want to share, ok do it. But a lot of us do because it's the "nice" thing to do. And we all want to come off nice don't we? Theoretically I dont give a fuck if people think I'm "nice". I want to make myself happy, cause if i'm lying to myself about what makes me happy then what's the point of living?
Ehh i'm tired. thats all for now! i love your insight though.....
 
I'm not specifically addressing my post to you, but to all the objectivists I've met who said her books convinced them that her principles were right, that lack of greed would destroy society BECAUSE it did so in the books. These people said, expressly or implicitly, that her books PROVED her philosophy.
Like you said, they are fictional and thus prove nothing. Many objectivists I've spoken to -- most in fact -- had trouble grasping this simple fact.
As for her philosophical principals, as shown in her books, I think they were a little black and white "greed good, charity bad." Greed is merely seeking material wealth. There's nothing bad in that.
Some bad things can SOMETIMES accompany greed. If you seek material wealth, you might do so to the sacrifice of other forms of wealth, such as knowledge, pleasure, friendship, respect, honor, love, art, etc. So you become two-dimensional.
Also, if your primary goal is material wealth rather than, say, honor, friendship and respect then you might be willing to commit immoral acts to obtain that wealth.
A person may be greedy in the sense that they enjoy and want material wealth, but also enjoy and want the immaterial bounty that life can offer such as love, honor, adventure, etc. and may value honor and friendship and respect enough that they are not willing to do anything immoral to get that wealth. I think this person is absolutely fine and dandy, no problems here.
As for charity, charity is part of our immortality. We emphathize and feel part of humanity as a whole (or at least some segment of it beyond ourselves) so we feel good helping some one in that society. This same sense of connection makes it so, when we face our mortality, we have some comfort that humanity is not dying. To perceive others, in some sense, as ourselves and thus empathize with them, give charity to them, etc. This, therefore, can be a rewarding thing which will make you happier as you get older. Makes you less lonely, etc. It is all so complex, Ayn Rand seems to me to be so two dimensional and thoughtless in dismissing charity and praising greed. Greed may not be bad, but neither is charity. They are just part of life, part of being human.
~psychoblast~
 
Originally posted by justsomeguy:
well, from your explanation of miss Rand, it seems that she has quite a bit in common, at least at the "philosophical" leve, with John Stuart Mills. Perhaps i would suggest reading "On Liberty", or "Utilitarianism." ( i find the former quite a bit more interesting).
(aim me and i'll let you borrow the book sometime, with all my higlights and margin notes ;) )

although rand's philosophy of happiness being the ultimate ends agree w/ the utilitarism philosophy, the weight of this happiness differs between the two. for rand, it's all about selfish happiness whereas i recall john mill proclaiming "greatest happiness for greatest number of people".
i remember the hypothetical question of, "would you rather be a happy fool or a miserable socrates?". i think the utilitarianists chose the miserable socrates because he had more capacity to be happy as well as more abilty to make others around him happier. the question, however, is flawed imo. the question gives one the illusion that once we are transformed into either of the possible entities, we could control our happiness. but if that is so, everyone would choose the latter. however, if we are somehow stuck in the miserable shoes while being great, i'd rather be a fool and be happy.
 
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