CONFORM - Throw Away Your Individuality Now!

From time to time I hear people denounce conformity and praise individuality. I think this is unfortunate because people often fail to see the good of conformity and the shortcomings of individuality. Let's change the semantics and maybe you'll see what I'm talking about.
Instead of using the word conformity, try using the word community. Instead of individuality let's use the word loner.
Who here would denounce community? Yet, communities are identified by that which its' individuals share in common. Consider the gay community as an example. There are certain traits, behaviors, manner of dress etc that gays use to identify one another. Some might say that by adopting these signs one has conformed. But, as a mostly gay guy, I don't see it as giving up individuality as much as gaining community.
Now, let's look at individuals. The most extreme examples of individuals tend to be hermits and loners. Why? Because they share nothing in common with the rest of the world. They are so unique that they can't relate to others, nor can we relate to them.
There are always two signs to a coin. I'm not arguing for us to throw away individuality and uniqueness. Rather, I hope people will temper their understanding. Individuality and community are often at odds with one another. But, the fact is healthy living must have some of both.

true conformity leads to stagnation and eventual death - individauls tend towards conformity naturally - by expressing individuality the system to which the naturally conform change and grow.

even to me (someone who is very against conforming for the sake of belonging), you make a good arguement...
well said
aj the femme
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the extra M is for MmmMmmmm
Be Good!!!

Just to make the waters a little more muddy...
What if in our quest for individuality we are really just conforming. Here's an un-original thought: Why don't I get a Chinese character tattoed on me, and another peircing. No one has those. I'll be such a rebel. Or, will I just be conforming to a counter culture community?

True individuality is impossible. When people think they're being non-conformist, they're really just conforming to their--and society's--idea of nonconformity. Think of--surprise!--a raver. To most of society, he/she is being nonconformist. In reality, though, he/she regularly congregates with other "nonconformists", people who have their own standards of normalcy and deviance.
If you think that PLUR would win out, picture this: a guy wearing swimming trunks, a plaid sweater, cowboy boots and a ten-gallon hat walks into a rave. If you think that he'll just fit in, you're mistaken; where actions give no indication, inner thoughts wil.
Even hermits aren't truly nonconformist, since they'll always carry the socialization they were raised with around in their heads, and it will probably influence their thoughts and actions to some degree.
That being said, I do agree that there is often a great deal of comfort in community, which is why people congregate with other people with whom they share certain characteristics. Humans are just social creatures.

"you're unique, just like everyone else"
very well written blue lava, and something that people need to keep in mind..hardly anythign we do is going to set us apart from everyone...

If you are an individual it is easier for them to ignore you.

so we need to strike a balance between social conformity and development of individuality... be it spiritual, inetllectual etc. because although conformity to *some* established rites is needed for a community to exist, without individuality there would never be growth or development of thet community.
peace

You guys know how much I like metaphors. Here's one I've been working on for a while...it isn't refined to my satisfaction yet, but it is germane to the topic at hand:
Conformity is a gravitational force, drawing one in towards the large "mass" of the "norm"...and individuality is the corrective thrust used to keep oneself in orbit around that larger body (and thus in motion) rather than crashing into it.
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If it's orange and fuzzy, it's FoXy....
"Ed Meese should be ass-fucked by an acid-crazed elk."-Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
"We're not scare mongering,
This is really happening, happening"-Radiohead, "Idiotheque"

what the hell are you talking about???
altruist...

That I don't conform to others ideas I only put my trust in God. Take for instance whats going on now with what happened in NY, I don't trust anyone only God, but if it came down to fighting for freedom I would do all I could for my fellow-man.Therefore, I am not an individual only a servant for Christ.

Putting your trust in God is an act of conformity.
This is not arguing one way or the other whether its RIGHT or not...but it is conforming to something a billion others also conform to.

Fox: interesting point I guess I have conformed to an idea. But isn't life all give and take. I mean, what do they mean when they say lose yourself(individuality) and you find yourself)???

everything could be called an act of conformity. In non-conforming, you're just doing a different sort of conforming.
Why draw the distinction at all? Does it make you "better" ceause you do or do not conform? what is the point of drawing this line in the sand, and saying "pick one"?
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Who you are never realy changes... It's who you THINK you are that does.
"every time I think of you, I'm happy! I never really wanted any more, or anything or nothing else!" -Jon Doe and Lisa "TIME BOMB!!"

Alrightythen, I understand thanks. Love and Peace to All

The question you raise is interesting, but a bit misguided IMO. Allow me to explain, with a helpful reference....
Here are some excerpts from "The Book" by Alan Watts. [Taken from the chapter entitled "How to be a Genuine Fake"]
[He begins by discussing discussing individuality and conformism, how young children are naturally dependent on their community for survival, but encouraged to be individualistic, and how this confuses kids.]
"Yet the very society from which the individual is inseparable is using its whole irresistible force to persuade the individual that he is indeed separate! Society as we know it is therefore playing a game with self-contradictory rules. Just because we do not exist apart from the community, the community is able to convince us that we do--that each one of us is an independent source of action with a mind of its own. The more successfully the community implants this feeling, the more trouble it has in getting the individual to cooperate, with the result that children raised in such an environment are almost permanently confused.
"This state of affairs is known technically as the 'double bind.' A person is put in a double bind by a command or request which contains a concealed contradiction. "Stop being self conscious!" "Try to relax." .....
"Society...pulled this trick on every child from earliest infancy. In the first place, the child is taught that he is responsible, that he is a free agent, an independent origin of thoughts and actions.... He accepts this make-believe for the very reason that it is ont true. He can't help accepting membership in the community where he was born. He has no way of resisting this kind of social indoctrination.... He is being told that he must be free. An irresistible pressure is being put on him to make him believe that no such pressure exists. The community of which he is necessarily a dependent member defines him as an independent member.
"In the second place, he is thereupon commanded, as a free agent, to do things which will be acceptable only if done voluntarily! 'You really ought to love us,' say parents.... 'All nice children love their families, and do things for them without having to be asked.' In other words, 'We demand that you love us because you want to, and not because we say that you ought to.' Part of this nonsense is due to the fact that we confuse the 'must' expressing a condition ['To be a human you must have a head.'] with the 'must' expressing a command ['You must put away your toys.'] .....
"Children are in no position to see the contradictions in these demands.... Instead of giving our children clear and explicit explanations of the game-rules of the community, we befuddle them hopelessly because we--as adults--were once so befuddled, and, remaining so, do not understand the game we are playing."
* * * * * *
Okay, that was more than I originally intended to type. Better to say too much than be vague. We are naturally gregarious, no doubt about that. We also want to express who we really are, and what we really feel, possibly at the expense of acceptance with others. The hard part is finding the balance. It would be easier on all of us if we did not grow up with so much faulty programming, but reality is reality and relating to others is often more difficult than it should be.
If anyone is interested, I will post the rest of the chapter [in abbreviated form] since Watts takes this idea down an interesting path.
peace,
mote

It would be easier on all of us if we did not grow up with so much faulty programming, but reality is reality and relating to others is often more difficult than it should be.

Click to expand...

This just struck me as interesting...in what way do we grow up with faulty programming..i mean what are we comparing "us" to? How do we know that relating to others is supposed to be easier?
This is not to strike down your choice of reading material at all...i just sometimes wonder how some feel that they are so much an expert on subjects that they should write a book purporting near truths as opposed to theories
The things people are taught, or fed really depends on the things that are later valued and expected from the society that they are in...it is certainly not the same for most of the east as for our country, there have been measurable differences found between the self-concepts...

O.k.! where do I sign?

First off, Blue Lava brings up an excellent point, and I agree with what Belisarius says.
Second, I tend to believe that in many cases, those who consider themselves non-conformists or individualists just can't come to grips with the fact that they really aren't anything special. They're the same eating, breathing, shitting, pissing, fucking human being that all the rest of us are.
By embracing our sameness, we can drop superficial individuality and adopt it in one sense that actually matters: a highly developed sense of ethical duty.
Ultimately, most of what is considered unique or non-conformist in society is superfluous bullshit. Well developed values are truly important and can distinguish one from the rest.
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Trance and Dance: the enlightened path to Trancendence.
[This message has been edited by Trancendance (edited 27 September 2001).]

That sounds like an interesting book Mote. A neat little take on things mr. Watts has there. Still, he might have simple arrived at the same conclusion I did, but just displayed it in a different light. What I said was there needs to be a bit of both. What Watts seems to be saying is that there are both and that they are in tension. Most things are in tension and that's what keeps the ball rolling. While Watts may be right in thinking this tension between individuality and conformity may cause confusion in a child, I would argue that that confusion is not insurmountable and is in fact a perfectly normal thing as a child determines their place in the universe. Hey that was a really long sentence.