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phr
21-04-2010, 21:37
The policy of giving problematic drug users the heroin substitute methadone – a cornerstone of official efforts to cut the huge amount of crime linked to illicit substance misuse – is being criticised as a waste of money that does little to wean people off drugs and leaves too many of those receiving regular doses of the green liquid living "half-lives".

The fact that David Cameron, during last week's televised party leaders' debate, voiced his concern that too many problem drug users do not manage to shake off their addiction shows that the issue has attracted attention in high places.

A coalition of opponents of methadone maintenance includes the Centre for Policy Studies rightwing thinktank, leading drugs researcher Neil McKeganey and, most ominously for the vast majority of workers in the drugs field who are pro-methadone, many senior figures in the Conservative party.

There are an estimated 330,000 people in England alone who are addicted to heroin, crack cocaine, or both. They are extremely challenging, cost the country an estimated £15bn a year, and commit an estimated £13.9bn of crime annually. A record 200,000 of those 330,000 are in treatment, which usually involves methadone. Drug treatment has expanded in recent years, with around 11,000 drugs workers in England and at least 1,000 drug projects across the UK, variously funded by the NHS, councils, the police, charities or combinations of some of them. Some £800m a year is spent on drug treatment, half of it by the NHS's National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse.

The Tories want an overhaul of the system, with many more people going into residential rehabilitation and making a serious effort to become drug-free, and fewer being given methadone.

"Methadone maintenance is under the spotlight," says Martin Barnes, chief executive of DrugScope, which represents about 700 local drugs agencies. "There had been differences of opinion in the field for a while because some people weren't comfortable with methadone maintenance."

Their case has been bolstered by the cross-party public accounts committee, which two weeks ago issued a highly-critical report, called Tackling Problem Drug Use. It said that just 15,000 of 165,000 problem drug users who underwent community-based treatment last year emerged free of dependence. In addition, it said it was "unacceptable" that the Home Office had not properly evaluated whether key elements of its £1.2bn-a-year strategy to tackle drugs misuse in England actually worked, and did not know if that strategy directly reduced the huge cost of crime committed by addicts.

"The department [Home Office] does not know how to most effectively tackle problem drug use," the MPs said, before adding that "residential rehabilitation may be effective for those who have failed to 'go clean' in other forms of treatment". That is what the Tories want more of.

The gathering storm over methadone began in late 2006, when former Tory leader Iain Duncan Smith's Centre for Social Justice thinktank published its Breakdown Britain report.

Partly informed by Duncan Smith's scathing critique of methadone, the Tories have in the last two years attacked the reliance on methadone to treat large numbers of addicts as "failed" and "wrong". Shadow justice secretary Dominic Grieve, for example, has claimed: "The government's approach of trying to 'manage' addiction is an admission of failure."

David Burrowes, a shadow spokesman on criminal justice, is one of the Tories who have been consistently questioning the cost and efficacy of methadone treatment, both in the community and in prisons. "It's not for me to cast moral judgments about whether methadone is wrong or right," says Burrowes, a former criminal solicitor whose interest in drugs policy developed from seeing clients with chaotic or ruined lives fail to kick drugs. "We need to look at outcomes, and the outcomes are just not good enough.

"The public expect that addicts have to get off their drugs, but too many end up parked up on methadone. They become dependent on it and end up not being able to contribute to their families or society. I've seen too many individuals on methadone who are living half-lives, and that's not good enough." Burrowes also claims that it does not cut crime – the main justification for the policy.

The Tories want much more effort put into getting drug-using offenders to go clean – what they call "recovery" – and their manifesto proposes abstinence-based drug rehabilitation orders. But some say that is a simplistic response to the complex problem of opiate dependency. Defenders of methadone point out that the policy was introduced by the previous Tory government as a vital harm-reduction measure.

Roy Robertson, an Edinburgh GP and ex-member of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs, is dubious that abstinence will work for many users. "Most governments have endorsed methadone treatment, not because they liked the implications that drugs are only controlled by this palliative method, but because there are few alternatives," he says.

Barnes argues that every drugs worker wants their clients to get clean, and the "maintenance v recovery" debate is a polarised argument that doesn't help anybody. "The evidence is that methadone is a very effective treatment for helping many people out of their chaos, such as cutting crime," he says. "It stabilises people and helps them re-establish relations with their family."

DrugScope is calling for a balanced treatment system tailored to the needs of the client, incorporating both maintenance and abstinence options.

It is hard to predict what a change of policy under the Tories would mean. While some addicts would accept a place in an abstinence-based rehabilitation centre, many would not. "If there's a shift away from methadone, and spending on services offering maintenance [through methadone] is cut, the danger is that drug users might vote with their feet and drop out of treatment or not come forward in the first place," Barnes warns. "It's a major attraction for heroin users going into treatment that they'll be offered a methadone script."

Link! (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/apr/20/conservatives-heroin-addiction-treatment-overhaul)

Will Conservative plans to overhaul heroin addiction treatment work?
Denis Campbell
Guardian.co.uk
4.20.10

pseudononamouse
22-04-2010, 01:19
How about ibogaine?

monstanoodle
22-04-2010, 01:26
"It's a major attraction for heroin users going into treatment that they'll be offered a methadone script."
.... As far as I'm aware, a great deal of Heroin addicts would rather not touch Methadone. I'm one of them. They'd much rather choose Buprenorphine. Infact there should be more than 2 options available to them. Heroin prescription isn't widely practiced when it should be.
They should also be more willing to practice DHC maintainence and even Codeine maintainence.
I'm going to ask my doctor about trying out a twice daily dose of Codeine as I feel it would work much better for me personally than any other type of replacement therapy.

narco anonomous
22-04-2010, 03:30
"The public expect that addicts have to get off their drugs, but too many end up parked up on methadone. They become dependent on it and end up not being able to contribute to their families or society. I've seen too many individuals on methadone who are living half-lives, and that's not good enough." Burrowes also claims that it does not cut crime – the main justification for the policy.

A. It's been pretty obvious for ages that methadone is a maintenance substance, as a device for weaning physical dependence, it is no more effective than any other long lasting opioid.
B. See what kind of half-lives they live without MMT available.
C. I honestly don't know how you can claim it doesn't reduce crime. Perhaps not all that significantly, but fact of the matter is that some people use methadone as intended; were they not using methadone they would be using heroin, and a portion of those would commit crime in buying and paying for said heroin. It's irrelevant to me though, it seems like public attitude in Britain is getting more and more stupid and blatantly manufactured. Is there something in the water?

Also Ibogaine is such a crock of shite, and I am so tired or hearing hippies offer anecdotal evidence of it's wonders. Maybe it works for some, it certainly doesn't for others, but it's killed quite a few people. So has methadone, but one is medically researched, where as most medical researchers wont touch Ibogaine with a ten foot stick. I know argumentum ad ignorantiam doesn't invalidate your argument, but how exactly do you suspect Ibogaine "cures" opioid addiction?

flacky
22-04-2010, 06:29
See what kind of half-lives they live without MMT available.

I remember when I was a teenager and my father was going on one of his rants about how he quit alcohol and tobacco without any help (even though he never quit alcohol, just cut it down to less noticeable levels). He told me that heroin addicts didn't need methadone and that addiction can be overcome with thought only. He also went on ranting about how he was given morphine in the hospital after surgery and he didn't become a raging addict and need methadone.

8)

Years later, as his unbeknownst-to-him-heroin-using son, I hate him so many worlds more for saying that. At the time, I had never even touched heroin. To this day, I have still never gone through withdrawals because I've never used more than once or twice in a week. Notwithstanding that, my interest in pharmacology started in my teens, and I knew that he was full of shit.

Now, as a chipper -- who has felt the unimaginable pull that heroin has, has friends in the scene, has friends who have relapsed over and over again, and has friends who are being held in a functional life by methadone -- I know for a fact that he's full of shit.

All that these idiots have been taught is that heroin addicts are evil people who can't be helped and are just bound to be homeless criminals that we should lock up. :X

Maybe if governments across the world stopped pretending that they were stopping addictions by controlling drugs, we'd start seeing less of these "half-lifes" and more productive people who don't lose their careers and lives to unaffordable addictions.

FieldsOf80s
22-04-2010, 07:19
Government ought to do more to subsidize Suboxone rather than Methadone. And without either, well... other than the few who taper down with kratom using extracts (yes it's possible, I did a 2-week taper of plain leaf kratom to get off 80mg/day oxy, and now I'm completely off.) If you have a decent tolerance, you can start with the potent liquid extract, then UEI, then finally plain leaf. By the time you get through, you'll be amazinged by how benign the withdrawal is. To be fair, I think the majority of MMT/Sub patients feel that switch was better than returning to their original DOC. Kratom has a lot of research available - almost too much, causing information overloads. If there's enough interest in me writing up some taper schedules based on what has worked for me, I'd be happy to do it.

I watched a documentary called Methadonia. One guy had been going to a single clinic since the early 1970's. I really can't imagine spending the rest of my life doing that.

Khadijah
22-04-2010, 10:42
This type of thinknig makes me sick...Seriously, I usually feel like I seen so much ignorance that it dont faze me so much these days, but this shit is just, Damn. Makes me....furious.

First of all, 200,000 of 330,000 are on methadone?? Do you realize that that means that almost TWO THIRDS OF YOUR ADDICTS ARE IN SOME FORM OF TREATMENT??

Holy shit, that is a GREAT success....The fuck are they complaining about?

Second, they want to focus on "recovery" which apparently to them has to equal abstinence 100%....Well, think about it for just a second, and realize with yall ignorant, stupid asses that addiction has TERRIBLE recovery rates, and hardly anybody ever fully recovers, and the ones that do have long periods of sobriety and success usually do it with methadone or suboxone, some kind of maintenance therapy whether its long or short term....You much less likely to succeed even at KICKING nevermind stayin clean for any noticeable amount of time, doin it on your own without replacement meds. Its just ridiculous--if u can take away the pain and physical suffering and struggle, it makes it that much more bearable to get thru the beginning which can be the hardest part. People say fuck it and get high becuz there aint NO REASON TO FEEL THAT WAY (sick) when you could be feeling better--and the choice is to do it with heroin, methadone, or sub. Its gonna be one or the other or the other, so might as well leave that option for addicts so they can commit to gettin clean or just gettin better off than they are, becuz if not, the pull of gettin well when you are sufferin like that is too strong. Most people cant, or just straight up dont want to, kick cold without nothing to help.

They are insisting they need better statistics, that not enough ppl is stayin clean long term "FOREVER"...maybe this is news to them, but you cant expect to have some kind of recovery rate even higher than 50%, look at the statistics for long term, permanent sobriety w/out relapsing....They are so small...And that just a fact of how addiction is...But if you count people on maintenance, people who use but way less frequent and maybe just "relapse" from time to time (I rather call it a informed decision to use in a controlled situation, becuz unlike the bullshit gospel NA stays preachin, some addicts CAN go back and get high once in a while, while still stayin clean for 99% of the time , so I dont think its fair to call that a "relapse" if it aint a mistake and its a conscious choice that is followed by gettin right back into the 'clean' lifestyle the next day. And ive done it, so i know other ppl can too.) But anyways...My point is that if you are lookin for pure, totall 100% abstinence from all drugs MMT and SMT included, you will have TERRIBLE rates of success...but incluce ppl on maintenance and shit like that and it looks alot better. Still not great , but better . And if you include the people who cut down a huge amount from their use, and manage to just chip or stay clean most of the time but still go back now and then, but still spend 90% of their time clean, well shit, thats better than bein a fulltime user too, aint it? If u counted all those ppl, and the ppl gettin help from maintenance therapy, the numbers would look alot better, but no it got to be some unrealistic kind of shit that will never happen.

They aint gonna force addicts to do it "their way" by takin away some of the only things that can help long term "hopeless" addicts live a half way normal life. Compare the life of a career dopehead with a methadone patient. Now tell me that the methadone is a mutha fuckin ' half life'.....Please....I think its up to the user to judge the quality of their life, and maybe to them, just bein off dope and chillin for a little while is damn satisfying for the moment. Maybe they are happy as shit in that "half life" so nevermind that, bunch of uneducated, simple-ass politicians makin a problem outta one of the only well known, well proved, decently effective solutions.

you cant expect fuckin miracles yo--do the people talkin all this garbage even know anything at all about this shit they judging? Any person educated on drug use and addiction with a 2 year college degree could tell them that to expect the things that they are demandin is just straight up foolish and totally unrealistic.

I would love to see how the crime goes up and how the problems with addiction increase once they take away methadone programs. Do you really think that takin away that lifeline will force addicts to get clean, and 'teach them a lesson', that they can do it without all these 'addictive drugs that just trade one addiction for another'? No, lots of them will just get back on dope. Its so fuckin simple, and I really feel like these folks must be retarded , that they could miss these extremely obvious, simple truths about the situation.

I could go on about this shit all day but Ill finish it up, but for real....This article is just so full of shit its hard to know where to begin or end...

Survived Abortion
22-04-2010, 13:19
How about we as a community help people with benzo needs as well. That's right, Benzodiazepines. Scrub that; repeal all drug laws altogether so we can make our own minds up as informed adults - about any drug. If you're an opiate user, you get a methadone/bupe script and a reduction program and all the other fucking thrills. As a benzo user, you're in the gutter mate.

As a long term benzodiazepine-dependant person, you get kicked out of doctors surgeries asking for a serious reduction program. I have engaged with Drug Intervention Programmes in my area and they treat you like a fucking criminal; you'll get counselling for six weeks and maybe some referral to a CBT group. I have no respect for any of these lawmakers ridiculous policies and their civil servants, and I don't recognize their laws.

Fuck the law, let's take our freedom back.

DexterMeth
25-04-2010, 08:16
You see, the main problem (aside from this subject being from the dark ages) is that most people simply refuse to accept personal responsibility for anything. Fucking retards.

shpongled1234
26-04-2010, 09:53
Government ought to do more to subsidize Suboxone rather than Methadone. And without either, well... other than the few who taper down with kratom using extracts (yes it's possible, I did a 2-week taper of plain leaf kratom to get off 80mg/day oxy, and now I'm completely off.) If you have a decent tolerance, you can start with the potent liquid extract, then UEI, then finally plain leaf. By the time you get through, you'll be amazinged by how benign the withdrawal is. To be fair, I think the majority of MMT/Sub patients feel that switch was better than returning to their original DOC. Kratom has a lot of research available - almost too much, causing information overloads. If there's enough interest in me writing up some taper schedules based on what has worked for me, I'd be happy to do it.


I would like to hear about using krantom to taper from Opiates! Please post it!

donnie080208
26-04-2010, 12:08
this will never happen its just the tories drumming up support off the "blue-rinse brigade" middle classes. some comments from the u.s.a and elsewhere on BL amuse me, as they think the U.K. has some enlightened drug policy with regards diamorphine scripts. This is certainly not the case and the amount of addicts out of the 350,000(ha,ha figure imo) that get goverment funded heroin on tap is less than 700 patients i believe. the only real choices for maintenance here are meth and buprenorphine(luckily suboxone is not prescribed)

Sentience
26-04-2010, 12:12
Methadone sucks.

I think the government should issue heroin to get people off Methadone. It would be safer and easier to ween people off of and they would actually enjoy it more with less risk. Heroin used to be a medicine you know.


Its all about the stigma...Methadone wasnt the street drug. it wasnt demonized like heroin was....so forget about the science and go with whatever is more acceptable sounding at the time.

Khadijah
27-04-2010, 21:35
I dont really think it sucks at all.....It was the one thing that made it possible for me to get off heroin. Methadone works for the longer-term addicts, people who have tried other options before, repeatedly, and it didnt work for them. Methadone aint a good choice for people who dont got long term habits, or people who got small habits. If you aint been in it AT THE VERY LEAST a couple years, 5+ or so, and if you aint already tried shit like rehab, detox, suboxone, etc, then you probably wont benefit as much from methadone as somebody like me or others in a similar spot.

BUT, If you are a person who tried, tried, and failed to get clean in other ways and just kept fuckin up, kept relapsing, and feel like you at the end of your rope, methadone is probly gonna work for you.

I dont know about other ppl, but I needed to be on a opiate 24/7. Bein on a long acting opiate like methadone let me have a normal life and do all the shit that I did before bein a dope addict. It is the medication that treats the "disease" of addiction. I dont believe in that disease idea, but say you do. Most people promote that idea.

So, if its a disease, then why cant we use a medication to treat it? Methadone and suboxone are the treatment medication that treats the disease, so why is it looked at as such a bad idea?

Im just puttin shit out there, like i said i dont believe in the disease addiction model, but thats for another thread.

Im just sayin. A drug that has allowed millions of people to recover into a much more normal life and be happy really dont "suck." It would be great if we had better options. But for now, methadone is a drug that really helps alot of the "hopeless" "shoot dope til i die" "gave up" addicts find a new and better life, so it cant be all bad, i can testify that shit my self . Just puttin a different opinion out there. And becuz it does that, is all the more reason why it needs to be open and available to the ppl who needs it.

darobian
27-04-2010, 22:35
This is one of the tories most absurd policies to date - and that's really saying something! Imagine what would happen if a party formed a policy to try and get patients off medications for other chronic illnesses like depression or high blood pressure. They would be rightly pilloried and ridiculed. Why then is it OK then for politicians to meddle with the treatment of patients who are addicted to opiates?


"It's not for me to cast moral judgments about whether methadone is wrong or right," says Burrowes

Actually it's the tories' puritanical ethics and prejudice over drugs and addicts that lie behind their criticism of methadone. Luckily, even if the tories do get in, the policy's so unworkable that I'm sure it'll be quietly swept under the carpet in no time.

Sentience
28-04-2010, 03:37
I heard the WDs from Methadone are worse and longer lasting, and people are more likely to OD because they dont get as much euphoria so end up over sedating themselves trying to get the same high....it does help the WDs though.


The advantage of course is that its a controlled carefully measured tapering dose....that is the good part about a methadone program, and yes that can help.

Still, some of the other options sound a little better. Europe seems to be ahead of us in drug treatment options.

bagochina
28-04-2010, 08:38
Methadone is a harsh addiction and its a swap. I wouldn't say it sucks as it has kept alot of people alive but I think with the advent of buprenorphine there is a better way [which in better I mean less physically addicting] method to treat opiate addiction. I was on methadone for 2 years, impossible for me to make a clean break from 'done. It was a rough, rough time trying to taper off. I was alot younger than so my thinking was definitely different but I don't know. Plus now with buprenorphine out there it makes it much easier for people to consider switching from meth to bupe.

I cant wait till somebody comes out with a Suboxone documentary.

Here is a link to the documentary someone mentioned above, Methadonia. Which is pretty good. Alot of benzo talk and I hate the way they pronounce methadone.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5888306773553221655#

peace,
seedless

darobian
28-04-2010, 16:01
The consequences of stopping methadone prescriptions or reducing a patients dose can be terrible. Patients will either turn to illicit opioids usually heroin, where their reduced tolerance puts them at risk of OD, or they will go into withdrawal.

Methadone patients who've had their prescriptions stopped, often a punitive measure for positive urine samples, suffer such severe depression when they go into withdrawal that some are driven to suicide. The fact is that methadone is a life saving medicine for many patients.

theantiadult
28-04-2010, 20:25
y dont they just leave people alone and totally legalize drugz

Sentience
29-04-2010, 16:12
I dont mean to insult you, but when you deliberately spell words wrong while trying to make your point you end up discrediting the position by making it look stupid. There are some very good arguments for legalization or decriminalization or perhaps just for more humane methods of regulation which would include utilizing rehab over prisons for non-violent offenders. When you come in with a post like "y dont they just leave people alone and totally legalize drugz " nobody is going to take that seriously, including most other drug users.

missunderstood
29-04-2010, 16:29
Methadone saved my life..and Suboxone is a good friend of mine. I am a recovering herion addict and I am sure I would be dead by now if it was not for Methadone. It helped me to live a some what "Normal" life. I only had to spend 80 bucks a week rather then 300.00 a DAY.........I am glad to say that I am now off both of these drugs. I felt a relapse coming at me a month ago, I got my ass to Dr. I am now taking Vyvanase for ADHD. I am sure the ADHD is responsible for all my insanity over the past 35 years. I always seem to be on the right path when I am treated for the ADHD..Docs are getting hard to come by. So now that I found one to treat me with out givin me a bunch of bullshiit I am a happy girl. But they should never cut the cord on any Methadone clinic, infact they should build more buildings and let them open clinics just like gas stations.........there are more addicts out there then we even know....Closet addicts, ashamed, and not ready to admit to them selfs that they are out of control and need help......I was lucky the obsession has lifted for now and I can live easy today:)

oliphill
29-04-2010, 21:43
Someone said Suboxone isn't prescribed... yes it is. My local clinic does it.

Anyway, yeah this is fucked up but would never happen. Just pre election vote gain tactics. As they know that most of people who would disagree with this wouldn't vote conservitive anyway!

missunderstood
30-04-2010, 01:31
Yes, I am glad that suboxone is a choice. For a while there were only certain Docs. that could offer it, and they could only have a certain number of people on it at one time..that was when it first arrived on the scene, now I understand the meth clinics give ya a choice as to what one works best for you meth or suboxone...all of it is just as fucked up to get off of....but if ya have to be on it for the rest of your time here it is better then the alternative....:|

Sentience
30-04-2010, 06:37
I think buprenorphine is a better choice than Methadone....


I dont want to be misunderstood here. I am 1000% in favor of offering drug treatment. We NEED to offer that. By saying that its not the best medication does not mean that I favor cutting off funding for treatment...Just the opposite. We need to increase funding and make Suboxone a more commonly available option.

Khadijah
02-05-2010, 02:09
I feel like with Suboxone becomin so popular and wide spread that methadone is gettin a bad rap. Soooo many people get on sub when they get A-arrested, B-caught by their parents or BF/GF/job, etc, or C-finally decide to give bein sober a shot. Its like sub is seen as the "good" treatment now and methadone is the "bad" outdated treatment.

To be totally honest, I feel like Suboxone aint that effective for certain users. The people who have tried over and over to get clean, the ppl who have OD'd, got arrested over and over, who been caught countless times, who just keep usin--in my experience those ppl dont do good with suboxone. Methadone is a more realistic and helpful option for folks in that position.

If you have only done dope for a year, if you did it for 6 months, if you never shot dope, if you had a short term habit whether it was IV or not, sub will probably work for you. and i aint sayin that it cant work for certain ppl, it all depents on the person them self, there aint no "rules" about it.

Im just sayin, it seems to me like sub aint too effective and dont work too good for the "hardcore" addicts. From ppl ive talked to and known, most of the ppl who had habits that were longer and had been in it for a while and kept on failin, sub just dont do it for them. I feel that way, i started usin when I was 16 and Im 23 now and I just finally got off the shit a few months ago. Sub just didnt do it for me, it was never 'enough' , it could not break thru and make me feel normal no matter the dose that I took, even taking it for a whole week straight without goin back onto dope i still could not do it. but methadone is a god send, like i said before and like lots of other ppl said too, it saved my life.

i aint sayin one is better than the other.

Just that ppl got a habit of fallin in love with the "new thing." Now that suboxone is the "better" treatment, you know how they say its less addictive, less this less that, bla bla bla, you can do it at home, no clinic, aint gonna be associated with "junkie life", etc. it definately gets this "savior" kind of respect from alot of ppl that see it as "methadone, upgraded version."

My point is just that BOTH of them need to stay just as available. Even now i see doctors and rehabs kind of fazing out methadone for suboxone detox. Detoxes if they used medication used to have methadone as a default. Now they are much more common to use suboxone to detox you. It aint a bad thing, Im just sayin, in the medical world ,. in the media and in some users it seems to be like , the next big thing, the drug that will make methadone obsolete, like somehow its better than methadone. And that aint true. they both got their ups and downs but it seems like its losin popularity and i hope it dont get left in the dust by over eager doctors and marketers who want to get on that "future" shit and write off the shit that been workin for the past 50 years.

and i dont think its just gonna disappear, im just sayin, that attitude u showed in ur post above me is the shit I been hearin from alot of ppl who seems to feel that sub is better, but take it from a person who really honestly just needs that heavy duty opiate shit--methadone is just as good, just for a different kind of user. I aint proud of it but I feel like my addiction came from that need to have some serious, heavy duty sedating shit every day, all the time, I dont know why, but sub it just did not fill that hole that was left empty when i didnt do dope. Methadone does. I feel like in a way its a more powerful drug than suboxone (not pound for pound as far as its actual potency but just over all the way that methadone can calm down a feened out junkie whose buggin the fuck out and dopesick, and get them to commit to stayin clean, in ways that suboxone 100% cant.)

Thats just my opinion tho....And if you see this post repeated, its cuz it really made me think, and Ima ask a question like this in OD, I dont want to get too off topic here but i would def. like to hear wat folks got to say about that.

DexterMeth
02-05-2010, 07:07
Methadone sucks.

I think the government should issue heroin to get people off Methadone. It would be safer and easier to ween people off of and they would actually enjoy it more with less risk. Heroin used to be a medicine you know.


Its all about the stigma...Methadone wasnt the street drug. it wasnt demonized like heroin was....so forget about the science and go with whatever is more acceptable sounding at the time.

Do you honestly think that heroin use is safer than methadone use, keeping in mind 100% of the people on heroin maintinance inject it? The few places there is heroin maintinance (or where it is being studied for possible normalcy I believe), the amount of people that die from overdoses in the program is somewhere around 10% or above I believe. 10% of people on methadone do not die from it. If they did, we'd all be on buprenorphine.

Khadijah
02-05-2010, 21:54
I think you mighta confused OD's with deaths Dex. In all the statistics i have EVER read about the heroin maintenance programs, there has not been one single death reported. The overdose figure was like 11% i believe IIRC, and they were all dealt with quickly and safely becuz of the nurses and EMTs always near by while the users did their shots, and all the OD's was able to avoid death.

I cant speak for users who died outside of the program while at home after usin EXTRA dope on top of their monitored doses, becuz Im sure some of them kicked the bucket but Im sayin as far as ppl that was stayin in line with the program, I dont remember hearin of any deaths of people who were followin the rules as prescribed. I could definately be wrong but that is the memory that I got from all the readin I done about the subject so far.

Anyways, if any of yall want to discuss the use of methadone vs. suboxone come join our thread in Other Drugs ;)

semigenius
03-05-2010, 06:32
You see, the main problem (aside from this subject being from the dark ages) is that most people simply refuse to accept personal responsibility for anything. Fucking retards.

I agree. Tax dollars shouldn't be put towards this. Get clean on your own and pay your own way. Should taxpayers really suffer because someone made some bad decisions?

chrisinabox
03-05-2010, 15:09
Dextermeth,

I'm not doubting you but I found one thing you said strange. Is it really true that 10% or above overdose while on heroin maintenance? I mean if they are on this, they are using pure pharm grade heroin and injecting it in a 'clean' room so to speak, correct? In a safe environment? Or do these places just give the heroin to addicts and let them use wherever they want?

I know in Norway for example, they have 'clean' rooms where addicts only need bring their heroin and have access to syringes,etc.. and inject in a safe room and there have been no overdoses in these rooms and such.

darobian
05-05-2010, 00:02
You see, the main problem (aside from this subject being from the dark ages) is that most people simply refuse to accept personal responsibility for anything. Fucking retards.

I'm doubtful of this. Personal responsibility is associated with free will - and addiction could be said to be the loss of free will. Besides there are many other illnesses, accidents etc that in some way people bring on themselves.

pjsykes
05-05-2010, 04:49
I would like to hear about using krantom to taper from Opiates! Please post it!

what is that? i am a heavy methadone user and wouldlove to get offthe stuff,my tolerance just keeps on going up and upl i

Khadijah
05-05-2010, 06:34
First of all , this aint the place to post that info anyways, but second of all, no heavy long term opiate user will be detoxing with kratom. Its a pretty weak plant compound that is a irregular kind of opiate , not a full agonist , it is somethin that ppl who dont got much of a habit might benefit from, but if you got any type of addiction to somethin like heroin or methadone, I dont think you should waste your time tryna mess with that shit. You would have to eat huuuuuuuuge amounts of powder, Im talkin like measuring cups full and i doubt even then it would do anything for you. I dont know give it a try if you want but u need to discuss that shit in the right forum, it dont belong in this article, Im just letting u know.

Khadijah
05-05-2010, 06:39
I agree. Tax dollars shouldn't be put towards this. Get clean on your own and pay your own way. Should taxpayers really suffer because someone made some bad decisions?

Taxpayers pay more money when people with drug problems commit crimes and get locked up and put a strain on the system. Anyways, you could say the same arguement for welfare and all forms of public assistance, should they get rid of that too? No...its in the best interest of the government and the community to have programs like this that offers aid, you do realize that in the US at least, it aint like its some kind of government handout program....You can get methadone "from the government" thru Medicaid at clinics that take insurance and many clinics accepts medicaid. thats a government program but it aint like your taxes is directly gettin put aside specifically to buy methadone for people. Anyways you would be payin much more taxes to cover that junkie in jail. Is the cost of over $35,000 a year per inmate and thats only at the cheap prisons better than payin like $3,000 a year per client at the clinic (And thats assuming its one of them expensive 50 dollar a week clinics--the actual cost of methadone is mad cheap, my pills is about $17 every 2 weeks so its like $35 a month which would be under 500 a year. If you so worried about payin your money and taxes on somebody "who made a bad decision" and its a whole lot more complex than that, I think its only the logical thing to support care and treatment svc's for addicts to get to them before they get locked up than waste at least ten times that amount to keep em locked up. Its simple logic yo, u want to look at this emotionaly with all that "oh why should i have to pay for a bad decision" shit, or u want to look at it in the simple straight forward & logical way which clearly shows u which one is better for your wallet?

Sentience
05-05-2010, 11:27
Do you honestly think that heroin use is safer than methadone use, keeping in mind 100% of the people on heroin maintinance inject it? The few places there is heroin maintinance (or where it is being studied for possible normalcy I believe), the amount of people that die from overdoses in the program is somewhere around 10% or above I believe. 10% of people on methadone do not die from it. If they did, we'd all be on buprenorphine.


I was thinking that the government would administer an oral opiate.....heroin isnt that bioavailable, but I assume that if you get the dosage right it could work.....I guess that would be problematic if you prescribe an oral dose that is high enough to match their IV dose...that is definitely not a good idea outside of clinical supervision.

Do you have sources to support the claim that 10% of people who are on that maintenance program die? I am not calling you a liar, but I would like to confirm that. It seems high.....why would a higher % die from clinical IV use than from street IV use?...unless the clinic sucked and they didnt know what they were doing.


I have heard from some users that the WDs can be harsher and longer lasting on Methadone than on heroin, and that it requires an even smaller reduction in dosage to get WD effects compared to heroin, and it still doesnt give you as much euphoria despite comparable if not worse addictive potential...I see that as a major drawback...but I have never been on a methadone program, so I could be way off base and not know it. I am parroting what others who I trust have told me.


Are there any other opiods or opiates that stop the WDs?

Sentience
05-05-2010, 11:31
I think you mighta confused OD's with deaths Dex. In all the statistics i have EVER read about the heroin maintenance programs, there has not been one single death reported. The overdose figure was like 11% i believe IIRC, and they were all dealt with quickly and safely becuz of the nurses and EMTs always near by while the users did their shots, and all the OD's was able to avoid death.

I cant speak for users who died outside of the program while at home after usin EXTRA dope on top of their monitored doses, becuz Im sure some of them kicked the bucket but Im sayin as far as ppl that was stayin in line with the program, I dont remember hearin of any deaths of people who were followin the rules as prescribed. I could definately be wrong but that is the memory that I got from all the readin I done about the subject so far.

Anyways, if any of yall want to discuss the use of methadone vs. suboxone come join our thread in Other Drugs ;)


Yeah, this sounds about right. That is part of why I think that a heroin based program can be effective when administered in a closed clinical setting....though I can see the advantages of Methadone for outpatient recovery, if it has stronger affinity yet weaker effects.....Does Methadone help prevent overdose because of this or make it more likely?


Sorry, I wont threadjack anymore.


Anyway, I strongly support supporting these programs, even with Methadone...though I would support a heroin based program at least for those who are under close supervision as inpatient patients.

Sentience
05-05-2010, 11:38
First of all , this aint the place to post that info anyways, but second of all, no heavy long term opiate user will be detoxing with kratom. Its a pretty weak plant compound that is a irregular kind of opiate , not a full agonist , it is somethin that ppl who dont got much of a habit might benefit from, but if you got any type of addiction to somethin like heroin or methadone, I dont think you should waste your time tryna mess with that shit. You would have to eat huuuuuuuuge amounts of powder, Im talkin like measuring cups full and i doubt even then it would do anything for you. I dont know give it a try if you want but u need to discuss that shit in the right forum, it dont belong in this article, Im just letting u know.

Kratom is actually more powerful than heroin "by weight", or at least the pure active chemicals are...You can get 96% Kratom (alkaloids?) from oversees pretty easily if you buy in bulk....I have no idea how well it would work at high doses for long term high dose addictions, but I do know that there is a much smaller amount of cross tolerance than you would expect.....it might be worth researching anyway.

Khadijah
06-05-2010, 08:45
^^way back a few years ago after I had quit dope for a lil while and was just startin to do it more again I was barely even havin a habit, I mean I would be able to make a bundle last 2 days. like some serious, baby habit shit, and I tried usin kratom to detox and it kinda helped at real high doses, Im talkin like 6 tablespoons of that shit at a time to dose anything that would do shit at all. It was barely somethin that was effective at a extremely low habit, so there aint no way that it would even begin to touch somebody with a actual habit. I aint sayin it aint worth lookin at but that you would be downing like measuring cups full of powder and most likely your tolerance would be too high for it to work. even if it aint got much of a cross tolerance I feel like the more subtle highs that ppl who aint regular users get alot out of, are usually completely useless to more experienced fulltime users so IDK. i would be interested to see somebody try tho but I was jus speakin frmo my experience which was that it wasnt too strong at all on a extremely barely-there habit so I got to be realistic and doubt that it would be worth tryin for a regular solid habit, but who knows like i said..It would be interestin to see somebody try .

flacky
06-05-2010, 12:07
Lacey is very right.

Methadone is supplied in a standardized by pharmaceutical companies. 70 mg will be 70 mg every time.

Kratom is not at all standardized. Some vendors claim to sell "standardized" extract, but there are no regulations on it. So you're stuck with leaf powder which may or may not do something depending on the batch and whatnot.

Sounds like a great detox idea.

Sentience
07-05-2010, 12:06
One capsule of pure Kratom Alkaloid is probably like 10 measuring cups full of Kratom....I may be exaggerating a bit, but its actually some extremely potent stuff 'by weight'.

Crude Kratom herb might not be good for anything beyond a mild pill addiction, but I think that a concentrated extract.....not like a x15 extract, but like pure alkaloids made in a lab....It might show promise. You would just have to dose pretty high, and using crude herbs wont cut it.


This is not a 'definitive source' but Wikipedia says.


Dry kratom leaf contains roughly 0.25% mitragynine. A typical dose ranges from 15 mg to 65 mg.

So taking 4 1000mg capsules would be 268x a threshold dose in an opiate naive person.....probably would do SOMETHING in an heroin user, wouldnt you think?


You would have to take 400x as much leaf to = what you would be getting in a capsule of pure alkaloids.....but I think we should be aiming for full spectrum rather than single chemical.

flacky
07-05-2010, 23:34
Plants never have a consistent alkaloid content. That's why the typical dose ranges from 15 mg to 65 mg. That's a horrible margin.

You also have no guarantee that what you're getting from any of these "ethnobotanical vendors" is what they say it is.

Kratom's a joke. Might be good for when you're sick one day, but in terms of leading a functional life, forget it.

Sentience
08-05-2010, 16:29
What about a pharmaceutical grade extract, or standardized full spectrum concentrate produced by a lab?

You understand that I was NOT talking about using crude herb to treat patients, right?

flacky
08-05-2010, 22:42
That's the problem. There is no pharma grade extract of kratom. Anyone telling you that they have some "standardized full spectrum concentrate" is only as good as their word that anyone can post on the internet.

Sentience
09-05-2010, 03:50
I was talking about possibilities rather than encouraging people to buy random stuff off the internet and hope that it helps.

I was suggesting that it would be a worth while field of study for chemists and medical researchers.

However, I have seen chem labs selling 40% pure alkaloids, supposedly.....In my opinion that is no more or less credible than buying RCs from the same merchant sites.

flacky
09-05-2010, 06:38
The difference between "possibilities" and "realities" is that only one is actually useful. Everyone knows that kratom has great possibilities. Until the actual research is done and it's actually available as a pharmaceutical product, it will remain useless. Your argument is that kratom is useful for opiate maintenance and detox. Therefore, your argument is wrong. QED

Also, your argument about RC's, while valid, is irrelevant with regard to your argument.

Sentience
09-05-2010, 07:07
Thats kind of a negative attitude. All I said was is "that it might be worth researching", and I was clearly talking about the pure or concentrated alkaloids. Talking about using the whole plant for high level IV heroin addition is a 'straw man' because it did not address my actual comment. Also, I didnt come out and say 'Hey everyone, our problems are solved, pharmaceutical grade Kratom alkaloids are available to everyone for cheap and the research is is completed!'. I didnt say anything of the sort. All I said is that its worth researching, and I mentioned that the alkaloids ARE more potent by weight and active orally if you extract them.

First of all, your "worthless" claim rests on the assumptions that alkaloid concentrates are unavailable and that there is no data to support its use.....both claims are false. There is a rich history in east Asia of people using Kratom to fight off Opium WDs.....Its a lot cheaper there. Its a leaf that grows in large quantities on trees and anyone can afford tons of it. Also, the concentrates are in fact available right now.

You make a semi-valid point in that there is little standardized testing for many of these products....though some claim third party testing which is probably possible to verify.

If everyone had the attitude that possibilities are worthless we wouldnt have much progress. I was just saying its worth while to research....however, you CAN get potent concentrates right now if the levels found in bulk herb are not doing it for you....I would test the waters though, and I think research should be done before this become a treatment.

Lighten up. I dont see why this should be an argument.

flacky
10-05-2010, 06:25
Although you may have not explicitly stated that kratom is better than methadone treatment, the weight of the full body of your arguments is conducive to that conclusion, and that is thus what you are inherently standing by.

Also, you clearly don't know what a straw man argument is and I suggest that you look it up. Actually, at this point, my eyes are darting to your second paragraph and I think that you know very well what I'm about to say and I'm going to cease repeating myself and wasting space on this board.

This thread is about the position that methadone maintenance plays in improving social conditions. If you have something to add to that, feel free. I don't so I'm going to stop putting up the same arguments to your unfounded ideas. If you really want to keep it up, PM me and we can do this all day, but, once again, I'm not going to waste space.

Sentience
10-05-2010, 14:18
I am sorry for going off topic, but I was certainly NOT suggesting that Kratom was superior to Methadone, especially bulk herb kratom for high dose IV addicts. I suggested nothing of the sort. The data just isnt in. We need a clinical trial before we can determine that, based on a pharmaceutical grade extract.

When you attack a position that is not the position of the person you are responding to, that is a straw man. Perhaps you imagined that I held a position which I do not actually hold, so in your mind it was not a deliberate straw man. However, I did not suggest that Kratom was superior to Methadone in raw or extracted form. It was just a random thought in response to somebody stating how 'weak' kratom is....well, its actually quite potent, a lot stronger than heroin orally and certainly active in oral doses small enough to fit into a tiny white tablet.

I feel like you are projecting and that maybe you are irritated because I prefer heroin based inpatient programs to Methadone based ones. I dont think that out patient heroin programs would work out so well, because it would just end up supplementing a habit rather than helping somebody tapper off, while the Methadone is actually effective for discouraging that....so maybe Methadone the superior outpatient drug for addicts who were seriously addicted to high doses, but the drawback is that its actually even harder to tapper a Methadone dosage than it is to tapper a heroin dosage, which is why I think that just using heroin for most of the inpatient portion of a rehab program might be preferable......then I had a completely random thought in response to the 'potency' of Kratom which is active at just 15mg, but I was certainly not saying that Kratom therapy makes methadone obsolete.....All I was saying is that its worth researching as the active chemicals are in fact effective at doses small enough to fit into a capsule...I think it deserves a clinical trial. Thats it.



This was obviously a misunderstanding, so maybe we can move on.

Sentience
10-05-2010, 14:33
However, I see your point above...if you are the kind of person who keeps going back to heroin after detox, then maybe a life long methadone prescription is the only thing that will keep you employable and well.

If you actually want to kick your habit entirely and live a sober lifestyle, or a non opiate addicted lifestyle where you can still party on other drugs in moderation but not be a slave to chemical dependency....Methadone might not be the right choice. Detoxing on Methadone is a slow and painful process. Detoxing with heroin or buprenorphine us faster and potentially less painful.....but yeah, nothing is to stop you from relapsing once you are sober, so if you dont think you have the will power to stay clean then a lifetime supply of Methadone will leave you more functional than a heroin addiction will.

flacky
10-05-2010, 15:14
^ I've never detoxed or been on methadone because I've never had a habit bigger than once a week. You just said things which didn't make sense and I pointed that out. As I said, if you have a standing disagreement with me then you can PM me. I'm not going to respond to arguments here and waste space.

Sentience
10-05-2010, 17:23
I think you had some faulty assumptions about my position and what I was suggesting. I dont have any serious disagreement with your position, I just dont think you addressed my actual positions.

I think its fine if you dont want to respond, but choosing not to respond means not needing to have the last word and just walking away.....how often do you hear people trying to get one last jab in before saying 'Im done here'....but 10 posts later...



Methadone is an important drug to a lot of users.
Newer drugs have many advantages in that detox can happen faster.
Heroin based detox and Sub are alternative options, with Sub probably being safer but not for everyone.
Kratom isnt even a player right now, except for low level pill addictions, but its worth researching in its pure extracted form because it is potent enough to put in small pills.
All forms of drug maintenance and detox programs should continue to get funding or have their funding increased.
We also need more safe houses and needle exchange programs.
Methadone is perhaps a preferred option for people who cant seem to stay clean past detox....however, it has major weaknesses in that detox is more difficult and time consuming.

If you dont see anything above you disagree with then there really isnt an argument.

StaffWriter
11-05-2010, 01:19
I see no problem with someone who wants to be on a maintenance drug like methadone for the rest of their lives. Those who want to quit will and stick with the program. However, some simply don't like the way methadone or buprenorphine make them feel. I firmly believe that a doctor who specializes in addiction should be given every pharmacological tool available to help treat their patients. DHC, Codeine, Darvocet, hydromorphone depots under the skin, methadone, buprenorphine, etc. etc. I'm not talking about giving the patient an unlimited supply of their DOC, but methadone and suboxone shouldn't be the only drugs they can be offered.