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Dray911
19-03-2010, 18:30
i was just wondering why other places use things like SWIM / my pet hamster and why bl doesnt?

Neo Incapacitator
19-03-2010, 18:34
It can't really protect you. Cops can just get your ip and trace it, it's pretty easy. I don't like posting on forums where I have to use swim. It's fucking annoying.

Dray911
19-03-2010, 18:38
if it does nothing why do they use it? i have to say i did SWIM in my first post here but i didnt know better

Bardeaux
19-03-2010, 20:52
Because some people think they arent incriminating themselves. But everyone who is familiar with the term knows that they are talking about themselves.

Rogue Robot
20-03-2010, 15:08
Homeless -> Support

fizzle
20-03-2010, 17:12
Yea, pretty much everything thats been said here. Some people (wrongly) assume that it protects them legally in court, which it doesnt.

TheLoveBandit
20-03-2010, 20:23
Related reading (found by searching SUPPORT for 'SWIM' in the title):

What exactly is SWIM and why is it frowned upon? (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=470564&highlight=SWIM)
Swim???? (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=430060&highlight=SWIM)
Whats up with other forums using SWIM so much? (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=488656&highlight=SWIM)

jaguraguguru
21-03-2010, 19:22
I understand that using SWIM might look dumb or cluttered and might be annoying, but why is everyone so adamant that it definitely would not hold up in court? Is there some legitimate reason why many of you believe this or does everyone just assume that? Here is how I see it. Saying "I did XYZ" in court would count as an admittance, but saying "My friend did XYZ" is clearly not an admittance. Only the former could possibly count as incriminating whereas the second, although many or all people might *guess* (and be right) that they meant themselves when they said "My friend," they have no case because there is no proof that the person did it himself.
Anyway, I'm not here to argue with you all to say that we should use SWIM. I'm just trying to figure out why so many are so sure that it's so useless legally. Thanks!

-Jaguraguguru

felix
21-03-2010, 20:22
SWIM = someone who isn't me

SWIM = someone who is me

which one of these has an official legal definition? there's your answer.

it's the dumbest idea ever. whoever came up with it must have done it as a joke.


(requesting a 'why we don't use SWIM Megathread'.) ;)

fizzle
21-03-2010, 22:13
^Done! :)

Good idea ;)

jaguraguguru
21-03-2010, 22:59
SWIM = someone who isn't me

SWIM = someone who is me

which one of these has an official legal definition? there's your answer.


I've read all the posts on several threads about this topic, so I've seen this argument, but it is not really an answer at all. I don't even know why you're asking which has an official legal definition. Obviously neither does and SWIM cannot be assumed to mean "I" legally by any court if it is trying to garner an admittance of crime, whether or not they are *certain* that that's what it in fact means. If someone said "my friend did this," they clearly can't use that as evidence against the person who said their friend did it. SWIM is no different. If, on the other hand, someone said "I just bought XYZ from XYZ" or anything along those lines, it might feasibly be used as an admittance of crime.
Why is it "the dumbest idea ever" to think that if you don't directly admit (in the first person) to having done or bought drugs but instead say you know someone who did, that you're less likely to be incriminating yourself? Do you really believe that there is absolutely no difference in saying "I did this" and "My friend did this" in terms of incrimination?
I just don't understand why everyone so strongly believes that you are just as screwed in court in either case. Is there any precedent for this or any examples that would show this to be the case?
I'm not trying to make anyone mad or just argue for the sake of arguing. I think this is important to everyone and I want to learn as much as possible about legal ramifications of these types of discussions. Thanks.

-Jaguraguguru

felix
21-03-2010, 23:55
the acronym is completely ambiguous and therefore meaningless. i don't have any real life examples of people being prosecuted/not prosecuted when trying to use it as a defence, but i'm sure if such an episode had happened it would have caught our attention over our past 10+ years of operation. i'm guessing if someone had told their lawyer "but I used the SWIM method of protection" their lawyer would have told them to STFU and leave the talking/thinking to them. ;)

there is also the minor factor (let's admit it, the main factor) which is that it makes posts really fucking annoying to read. :|

seep
22-03-2010, 01:22
According to Wikipedia, the Hive is responsible for SWIM.

clara
22-03-2010, 02:01
I just find it retarted reading a SWIM filled post regardless of the legal ramifications.

Albion
22-03-2010, 02:16
It gets even more annoying when people start saying 'My cat took (x) last night' and 'My fish got totally fucked on (y)'

Just cut the readers some slack, it's frustrating having to decipher what pretext you're speaking in. Unless of course some members actually have a house filled with intoxicated domestic pets.

MazDan
22-03-2010, 03:25
I've read all the posts on several threads about this topic, so I've seen this argument, but it is not really an answer at all. I don't even know why you're asking which has an official legal definition. Obviously neither does and SWIM cannot be assumed to mean "I" legally by any court if it is trying to garner an admittance of crime, whether or not they are *certain* that that's what it in fact means. If someone said "my friend did this," they clearly can't use that as evidence against the person who said their friend did it. SWIM is no different. If, on the other hand, someone said "I just bought XYZ from XYZ" or anything along those lines, it might feasibly be used as an admittance of crime.
Why is it "the dumbest idea ever" to think that if you don't directly admit (in the first person) to having done or bought drugs but instead say you know someone who did, that you're less likely to be incriminating yourself? Do you really believe that there is absolutely no difference in saying "I did this" and "My friend did this" in terms of incrimination?
I just don't understand why everyone so strongly believes that you are just as screwed in court in either case. Is there any precedent for this or any examples that would show this to be the case?
I'm not trying to make anyone mad or just argue for the sake of arguing. I think this is important to everyone and I want to learn as much as possible about legal ramifications of these types of discussions. Thanks.

-Jaguraguguru


What Felix said was correct.

Apart from that, anyone who thinks even for a poofteenth of a second that using the acronym swim would protect them or alternately cause them to be prosecuted (in the event that its read as Somone Who Is Me) has no concept of how law works.

That is simply not enough evidence to prosecute someone.

Law Enforcement needs a lot more than that.

If you are busted then it may be because you tried to buy or sell drugs openly here or even via PM.

forgotten
22-03-2010, 14:27
The affidavit for a warrant would read something like this:

Your affiant is a Special Agent with the Drug Enforcement Administration with 27 years law enforcement experience... through my experience and training I know that the term SWIM is an acronym used to falsely purport that the writer is not the person who committed the aforementioned act...

or something very similar.

Basically, it won't work. Internet posts alone would likely not be the only probable cause, either.

In short, it's a false sense of security. Acronyms, codewords and slang have made their way to many affidavits in support of search warrants.

Dray911
23-03-2010, 19:00
what about all this stuff like 'my pet hamster' or 'my pet goldfish' does that have any cover to it or is it just the same as swim.

MazDan
23-03-2010, 22:42
If you really think that my pet hamster is going to save you then by logical extension that means that you could be in court for cruelty to animals.

The fact is that its just unnecessary.

Retrodat
24-03-2010, 00:03
there is no problem with swimming, it's good for your health. But this is a drug forum why would u wanna be swimming here?

Priorities are very important. There is a time and place for everything.

I know im corny, that's my style:)

bluehairman
24-03-2010, 00:47
Why use swim when you can just say your friend did this. That way you won't look a fucking fool and legally you'd be fine (I assume, never actually heard of someone getting prosecuted because of a forum post).

jaguraguguru
24-03-2010, 06:10
In any case, you cannot be prosecuted for anything put on a forum like this without saying "I did XYZ." Their point is that swim or my friend or my pet anything is all the same to them and just as annoying. They're saying all of them should be left out here on BL. I don't agree that it's completely and only a false sense of security, but if you're doing things that are highly illegal on a large scale and then talking about them on the internet, you're a fucking fool. Otherwise, I'm sure that the worst that could happen is some authority trace you and/or watch you, but that would definitely happen with or without SWIM, etc. You'll be fine if you're not trafficking drugs or selling rolls, OCs, H, etc.

tr3jo
25-03-2010, 03:22
Look like in all reality as stated by Neo Incapitator, If the Cops were going to prosecute anyone on bluelight for a crime discovered outside bluelight, but use bluelight as supporting evidence, they would simply state you IP Adress and reference that to the crime you have been done for. For example if you get down for buying 20 pills, and there is a bluelight post registered to your IP Adress saying "Man i am about to buy 20 pills" regardless of whether or not you use SWIM or I you will get done.

And lets be serious, SWIM has been overused to the point where anyone who doesnt think SWIM is the actual person who typed the post must be retarded..

Kenaz
25-03-2010, 03:23
At least in the US (dunno about elsewhere) you're not going to be prosecuted for saying "I did X drug this weekend." You may start getting the attention of law enforcement if you say "I sold X quantity of drugs this weekend," post pictures of the 10,000 watt marijuana grow in your basement or let people know that you've got several thousand hits of some of the finest MDMA ever brewed and will sell them at a very reasonable price.

The hassle of getting an IP address (especially on an international board like this one) means you aren't likely to draw attention from law enforcement over small quantities. If you make it worth their while by bragging about how you just synthesized several kilos of methaqualone, they may decide it's worth trying to track you down. In any case SWIM or not-SWIM isn't going to make a whole lot of difference.

(All this being said: be very careful when you're meeting someone through BL for the first time... especially when/if you are meeting to sell them drugs or even to buy drugs from them. You're less likely to get caught up in a reverse sting than a regular sting, but there's still a chance that guy who only wants a few Oxys is a cop. It's not impossible to imagine a LEO doing a search for posters in his general vicinity and making nice with them in the hopes of breaking a major internet drug ring. Of course, we all know that no one uses BL for sourcing but in case you were thinking about it it's probably a bad idea... )

Dray911
25-03-2010, 04:33
i guess it is kinda pointless then, i hope this will enlighten a few minds and lowers the use of SWIM online.

Choronzon333
25-03-2010, 06:10
hmmm if SWIM doesn't protect anyone why do they use it. Why not just talk about hypotheticals without reffering to any one person and as what if if someone were to etc....

fizzle
25-03-2010, 06:16
(All this being said: be very careful when you're meeting someone through BL for the first time... especially when/if you are meeting to sell them drugs or even to buy drugs from them. You're less likely to get caught up in a reverse sting than a regular sting, but there's still a chance that guy who only wants a few Oxys is a cop. It's not impossible to imagine a LEO doing a search for posters in his general vicinity and making nice with them in the hopes of breaking a major internet drug ring. Of course, we all know that no one uses BL for sourcing but in case you were thinking about it it's probably a bad idea... )

Thank you for that post, its well said and spot on!

Special_Monster
13-04-2010, 05:44
I've always been a lurker and fan of BL due to the lack of SWIM, SWIY or pets that go clubbing while fucked off their faces.

I hate it when I read a thread on drugs forum and the SWIM elitists have declared war on someone for making a subtle swim mistake when in reality it's just a mistake.
Are they really going to be raided by the FBI at 4 in the morning...

My questions are:

Do these retarded methods actually offer protection from the law on certain sites?

If so why is bluelight not require them, is bluelight counted as a fiction forum for drugs (that is what my guess was)?

What are other people’s thoughts on SWIM? Is it just me who gets extremely wound up by it all?

Sweet P
13-04-2010, 05:45
Do these retarded methods actually offer protection from the law on certain sites?

No, of course they don't. That's why we don't use SWIM here on Bluelight.

It also looks stupid and makes posts hard to read.

Special_Monster
13-04-2010, 05:49
^

See I always thought the same, if they actually don't protect the poster then why the hell are there sites strict with enforcing it?

I think they must all be tweakers with the blinds shut who chucked away the phone because they "knew" the government was listening in. Crazy bitches.

Sweet P
13-04-2010, 05:52
^ Yep. Either that or the sites are run by kids who have no real idea of how the law works.

amapola
13-04-2010, 05:57
hmm from my LACK of training regards law......:

First off you have to know you are doing something wrong.
Second of all you have to do something wrong.

So let us say that some judge certifies a search warrant for your house based on what you say online. Unfortunatley since THE JUDGE allowed it yes it counts and yes anything they find is legit. Sure apeal and whatnot but still basically they allowed it so it is allowed.

The question therefore is simplified to does the use of SWIM prevent judges from issuing search warrants, and I have no information on that subject. :S

purple_cloud
13-04-2010, 06:02
I get really pissed off about SWIM too, when I discovered BL and realized it wasn't used I was so happy. It makes reading posts a bitch honestly, and when I hear about a bunny rolling over the weekend I just feel like either these people overdid it or there is some sort of animal cruelty going on.

And yeah, I have lots of really paranoid friends irl too who panic that if you say "pot" over any form of IM client that you will have the feds at your door immediately. I think it all just amounts to ignorance.

Sykoknot
13-04-2010, 06:05
^A warrant cannot be issued because of what someone has posted online. It is not substantial evidence. It can be considered evidence along with a charge, though.

Special_Monster
13-04-2010, 06:11
So swim is pretty much useless then.

So they’re going to all that effort writing about their pet Baby Jesus smoking pot for nothing other than the fact of writing some silly crap.

I think the people running the sites enforcing swim are sick and perverted.
They probably all read SWIM porn. Dirty.

amapola
13-04-2010, 06:12
Good to know Sykoknot,

I always assumed that things written online, such that it can be proved you were the one to write them, was tantamount to a written statement, which I have seen used as the primary evidential item in informational warrants before.

Special_Monster
13-04-2010, 06:14
^ That would be silly though seeing as half the internet is just lies and BS.

I still don't why drugs forum insists on swim usage? Anybody know?

purple_cloud
13-04-2010, 06:16
Good to know Sykoknot,

I always assumed that things written online, such that it can be proved you were the one to write them, was tantamount to a written statement, which I have seen used as the primary evidential item in informational warrants before.



I'm not quite sure how they would prove that YOU typed it...if its written on paper there is at least possible handwriting analysis that can be done...and if you are dealing with very very large amounts of drugs, you probably shouldn't be talking about having that in your possession in an online forum anyway. I know there are some BL rules similar to the SWIM idea --- don't incriminate yourself. Basically talk about things you have done or need advice with, not " So I have a kilo of blow in my trunk that I snuck over the Mexican border that I need to unload." ;)

Sweet P
13-04-2010, 06:18
^A warrant cannot be issued because of what someone has posted online. It is not substantial evidence. It can be considered evidence along with a charge, though.

Exactly. Also, the authorities aren't gonna waste their time tracking down every drug user who happens to mention that they're smoking weed or rolling on ecstasy. They've got much bigger fish to fry... dealers, suppliers, and so on.

Special_Monster
13-04-2010, 06:21
I have lots of really paranoid friends irl too who panic that if you say "pot" over any form of IM client that you will have the feds at your door immediately

I have many friends like that, they daren't use proper chemical names in case MI5 popped by. Yes, they thought James Bond himself was coming to send them away for posting Fbook comments saying they were very high. Luckily they have wizened up... a bit.


They've got much bigger fish to fry... dealers, suppliers, and so on.

I like to think that the law doesn't hate the players, it just hates the game.

Bomboclat
13-04-2010, 06:37
We have a major SWIM thread in support.
The gist: it gives you no protection what so ever.

You know what, instead of closing this im gunna move this there so Fizzle or Evad can merge it.

realhoax
13-04-2010, 06:50
I've seen SWIM on other sites but not anywhere on here
never understood it
can someone explain the jist of it and what the letters stand for

Special_Monster
13-04-2010, 07:00
SWIM = Someone who isn't me
SWIY = Someone who isn't you

That’s basically it :)

@ Mods : Sorry for causing trouble :(

freescale
13-04-2010, 07:49
SWIM gives you as much legal advantage in court as asking someone in a drug buy if they're a cop.

fizzle
13-04-2010, 08:59
*merge*

freescale
13-04-2010, 16:03
I still don't why drugs forum insists on swim usage? Anybody know?

Because people believe in the power of magic spells to protect them.

forgotten
16-04-2010, 19:10
^A warrant cannot be issued because of what someone has posted online. It is not substantial evidence. It can be considered evidence along with a charge, though.

In order to obtain a search warrant, probable cause must exist. The probable cause is reviewed based on the totality of the circumstances and may include direct observation, eyewitness testimony and hearsay evidence. While forum posts may not rise to probable cause on their own, they can certainly support probable cause.

klinklonfoonyak
17-04-2010, 01:32
SWIM gives you as much legal advantage in court as asking someone in a drug buy if they're a cop.

exactly

amapola
17-04-2010, 01:56
I wonder if online terrorist cells use swim?

...I also wonder if writing the word terrorist on this thread will mean NSA agents reads this thread.

*waves up to satellites

Depressicaa
18-05-2010, 23:52
I think that we should write in big bold letters for greenlighters to stop using SWIM. Maybe even set a capture when posting for when a capitalized SWIM is presented it refuses to pass.

What do you think?