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fizzle
08-07-2010, 02:37
Nope, 1 point.

But, I'm willing to compromise. How's about staff makes my next banning 7 days, to make up for the lost time?

How about you not have a "next time" :) Then you wont lose any time at all.

Binge Artist
08-07-2010, 19:45
How about you not have a "next time" :) Then you wont lose any time at all.


Whether or not I have a "next time" is not up to me, anyway.

But the question remains, How did I progress from a three day ban, to another SINGLE infraction point, to a two week ban?

alasdairm
08-07-2010, 21:14
Whether or not I have a "next time" is not up to me, anyway.it's absolutely up to you. consider taking responsibility for your own actions - it's what adults do...

alasdair

Binge Artist
08-07-2010, 21:30
consider taking responsibility for your own actions - it's what adults do...


Oh, but I do.

Nonetheless, I still seek absolution.

The disciplinary system here is entirely schizophrenic. They make all bans only temporary, because they think people can change. Yet, they leave the infractions permanently on your record because they think people can't change.

Ain't nothing wrong with holding folks accountable for their actions. That's all well and good. But they should allow folks to make atonements.

tambourine-man
08-07-2010, 21:44
But they should allow folks to make atonements.
Maybe that could be financial?

The site always needs money to sustain itself. How about a $50 fee to reverse a perma-ban?

:D

alasdairm
08-07-2010, 21:49
They make all bans only temporary, because they think people can change. Yet, they leave the infractions permanently on your record because they think people can't change.there's no doublethink required here. allowing for the fact that people can change and keeping a permanent record so that a dynamic staff can see the full picture are not mutually exclusive.

you seem to want your cake and eat it...

:\

alasdair

Binge Artist
08-07-2010, 21:58
there's no doublethink required here. allowing for the fact that people can change and keeping a permanent record so that a dynamic staff can see the full picture are not mutually exclusive.

you seem to want your cake and eat it...

:\

alasdair


If a person has stayed out of trouble for years...why would new staff members need to know about ancient infractions?

Plus, giving a person a way to make atonements can only do good. What motivation does a person have to make meaningful contributions to this site if he knows that, no matter what he does, his record is always tarnished?

alasdairm
08-07-2010, 22:11
If a person has stayed out of trouble for years...why would new staff members need to know about ancient infractions?it allows the staff - who may not have been around when the original disruption took place - to see the complete picture of that bluelighter's participation. a fully informed staff is a good thing.

What motivation does a person have to make meaningful contributions to this site if he knows that, no matter what he does, his record is always tarnished?you should need no more motivation than that of simply doing the right thing.

frankly, the martyr act is an instant turnoff...

:\

alasdair

Evad
08-07-2010, 22:14
What motivation does a person have to make meaningful contributions to this site if he knows that, no matter what he does, his record is always tarnished?

What difference does it make whether a record is clean or not to how a member behaves or contributes? None. A good member will accept when they have broken the rules and get the fuck on with trying to positively contribute to the website. This clean/dirty record augment is contrived and without substance.


If a person has stayed out of trouble for years...why would new staff members need to know about ancient infractions?

Each case is looked at on its own merit, if a great poster made a few mistakes when new to the board then they will most likely be overlooked. If the offences were more serious or of a different nature it would be useful to a new staff member to be able to see this. ali explains it simply:


there's no doublethink required here. allowing for the fact that people can change and keeping a permanent record so that a dynamic staff can see the full picture are not mutually exclusive.

the system works and is not worth changing for some hypothetical cases which may never arise.

Binge Artist
08-07-2010, 22:37
the system works and is not worth changing for some hypothetical cases which may never arise.


The system has been around for a few months...the real "villians" won't even be back until September (or 2015, for the REALLY bad guys). How do you know it works?

My point is that if y'all are willing to concede that folks can change, why not give them the opportunity to expunge their records? Why not put your (or better yet, MY) money where your mouth is? I would say, for example, the price I'd be willing to pay to be "whole" again would do Bluelight far more good than what ever benefit some moderator from 10 years in the future would have in knowing about a "Jack Lalanne" post I got infracted over.

Evad
08-07-2010, 22:48
The automatic banning/points system has only been around a while, the record system has been in place years, it has always worked. Previous warnings/infractions have always been taken into account when banning decisions are made. You are getting ahead of yourself, try and make it to the end of the year with no more infractions before worrying what people will think in 10 ay? If you make this topic again in 2020 you may have a point but for now it just stinks of martyr/troublemaking/timewasting nonsense.

TheLoveBandit
08-07-2010, 22:55
Maybe that could be financial?

DNFTT, unless you want a random length Temp-Ban <3 :)


Nonetheless, I still seek absolution.

Say three Hail Marys, seven Our Fathers, and put in 250 hours of community service. We won't care, but it will keep you from clogging a public thread with your self-centered crusade for a bit.


Whether or not I have a "next time" is not up to me, anyway.

But the question remains, How did I progress from a three day ban, to another SINGLE infraction point, to a two week ban?

Next time IS up to you - we all know that, including you. The only response I'll give for your repeated question is that the answer is in the first post of this thread - check the dates of when this policy was put in place and if it was effective for your Temp Ban(s), then keep in mind (as stated in the first post) that the sr staff will retain the right to issue non-standard TempBans as we agree the situation requires.....meaning no lone sr. staffer will issue one on their own, or at least they may issue it but it will not be left in place without sr staff discussion and agreement. That said, the intent is to move away from situations where TempBans are manually assigned, and rely more on the point system outlined above.

tambourine-man
08-07-2010, 23:56
DNFTT, unless you want a random length Temp-Ban <3 :)
Hah!

I'm serious. If you go to the effort of policing a forum, diligently building reports and audit trails to evidence bans... you might as well build-in a method of potentially earning something for the sites finances.

I've observed that some people persist in repeating the mantra of "username doesn't matter" or that "postcount doesn't matter"... despite people's constant testament to the contrary. People value their online identity, perhaps not always enough to prevent the loss of an account through banning, but they generally want to retain that identity... even if it is post-hoc inspired.

The loss of an account due to banning doesn't always correct behaviour when the person returns under a different name and, in some cases, it seemed to send people into something of a spiteful cycle where it caused more disruption.

I would suggest that if someone was banned but paid to have the account reactivated, the threat of losing the account for a second time and the wastage of the $50 it just cost them to resurrect it might just encourage the returner to behave. If they don't behave and make amends, then ban them again - you were going to do it anyway as a matter of procedure, but at least the forum is 50 bucks richer for it.

Easy money, little procedural disruption, minimal software implementation required.

alasdairm
09-07-2010, 04:23
My point is that if y'all are willing to concede that folks can change, why not give them the opportunity to expunge their records?the problem is we've heard it all before. sincerely apologetic users who promise they'll change. and they do for a short time before going back to their disruptive ways.

yes, you might be different and you can prove it by changing your ways. in the meantime, your record will stand on the off chance that you turn out to be just another cynical troublemaker...

a year from now, your reformed actions will speak louder than two or three year-old infractions...

alasdair

Binge Artist
09-07-2010, 15:15
the problem is we've heard it all before. sincerely apologetic users who promise they'll change. and they do for a short time before going back to their disruptive ways.

yes, you might be different and you can prove it by changing your ways. in the meantime, your record will stand on the off chance that you turn out to be just another cynical troublemaker...

a year from now, your reformed actions will speak louder than two or three year-old infractions...

alasdair


Suppose somebody pays to have their record erased, and suppose he acts up again...If he wants to erase the new infraction, that's another $XX.

Evad
09-07-2010, 16:45
I believe this has been quite thoroughly answered in the thread you started on the topic


BA: at present you are not banned and you are still allowed to post on the site.

so quit trolling support, quit bumping old threads, quit seeking attention, and go back to whatever you normally do, but without racking up any more warnings or infractions.

we will never allow users to clear their troublesome pasts by throwing money at us. end of discussion.

CLOSED.

please stop flogging a dead horse

-Guido-
09-07-2010, 17:03
it's absolutely up to you.

I would have to disagree with that. Somebody posts something subjective or engages in a subjective behavior with no ill intent other than to lol and make others lol; Then the Staff sits down in a circle with each others cocks in hand, and decides what is to be done with that member.

Binge Artist
09-07-2010, 17:07
I would have to disagree with that. Somebody posts something subjective or engages in a subjective behavior with no ill intent other than to lol and make others lol; Then the Staff sits down in a circle with each others cocks in hand, and decides what is to be done with that member.



^This is exactly true.

In fact, I could be infracted for this very post. And if that happens, what can I do...lol, complain to admin :\ ?

-Guido-
09-07-2010, 17:18
People value their online identity.

It's true. I would pay good money to have my old identity back. The keyword is identity and not screen name so your troublesome past isn't cleared.

You get banned. Your can't log in with your old screen name anymore. You are allowed to come back and stay based on good behavior so you register a new name. You can now log onto Bluelight and post again. Your old screen name is dead but why does the person behind the screen name actually have to be dead? Why can't your posts, post count, and join date be shifted from you old name to the new one?

-Guido-
09-07-2010, 17:27
^This is exactly true.

In fact, I could be infracted for this very post. And if that happens, what can I do...lol, complain to admin :\ ?

Indeed.

There are some Staff Members here where I could call somebody a few choice words and make a few choice comments and they would probably laugh it off. But there are also some who would warn me or want to ban me for said choice words and comments.

And that is when Staff politics come into play.

Evad
09-07-2010, 17:47
You have to keep in mind that staff are just mere mortals and a lot of the time will be making judgement calls. Of course different people have different points of tolerance, you can't expect everyone to have exactly the same attitude towards everything. If a member of staff makes a decision in their forum then it's up to them, they were picked for the job and get a certain amount of responsibility and are trusted to do as they see fit within reason. This is not to say poor staff conduct is overlooked, if a member of staff is acting like a dickhole they are, at the end of the day, as accountable as anyone else. Just because the process isn't public doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

alasdairm
09-07-2010, 19:09
it's always somebody else's fault...

alasdair

-Guido-
09-07-2010, 23:53
it's always somebody else's fault...

alasdair

Oh hai. Welcome to Bluelight.

guido

MazDan
10-07-2010, 03:05
the Staff sits down in a circle with each others cocks in hand, and decides what is to be done with that member.

Excuse me. I said EXCUSE ME. (Oh sorry, Im a huge wwe fan and got carried away.)

Anyways can someone point me in the direction of this circle cos I want in. Is this an SLR thing? Damn we only get cuddle puddles. I want dick in hand damn it.


Oh and solution for you guys to get rid of your infractions and its free.........start a new account and stop using the old one.

-Guido-
10-07-2010, 07:30
Excuse me. I said EXCUSE ME. (Oh sorry, Im a huge wwe fan and got carried away.)

Anyways can someone point me in the direction of this circle cos I want in. Is this an SLR thing? Damn we only get cuddle puddles. I want dick in hand damn it.


It's at an abandoned warehouse down from where I live. Come alone.



Oh and solution for you guys to get rid of your infractions and its free.........start a new account and stop using the old one.

Everyone knows that, I think they are worried more about their identity. Hence the post I made;

You get banned. Your can't log in with your old screen name anymore. You are allowed to come back and stay based on good behavior so you register a new name. You can now log onto Bluelight and post again. Your old screen name is dead but why does the person behind the screen name actually have to be dead? Why can't your posts, post count, and join date be shifted from you old name to the new one?

alasdairm
10-07-2010, 08:26
c'mon, guido, everybody knows that rewarding children for bad behaviour is just poor parenting.

alasdair

Infinite Jest
10-07-2010, 10:51
You get banned. Your can't log in with your old screen name anymore. You are allowed to come back and stay based on good behavior so you register a new name. You can now log onto Bluelight and post again. Your old screen name is dead but why does the person behind the screen name actually have to be dead? Why can't your posts, post count, and join date be shifted from you old name to the new one?

Because joining accounts is difficult and time-consuming.

I don't know if you were here a few (5?) years ago when BL had to re-set everyone's passwords? There were problems on the board, so everyone got a new password emailed to them. But lots of people had stopped using the email addresses that were associated with those accounts. So all of a sudden, they had no password to their account. And the general response was 'sorry, but it's your responsibility to keep your account up-to-date. Start a new account'. This happened to a lot of people - even people who were friends with admins IRL. They still had to start a new account, with no posts.

So I can't really see why someone who had been temp-banned would get the benefit of having their accounts combined.

[btw Guido I like you and would argue in your favour, but you have to accept that this isn't /b/, and the rules and standards are different :)]

tathra
10-07-2010, 13:07
start a new account and stop using the old one.

so then what do you do if you try doing that, but get threatened with a ban simply for using a new account, despite not breaking any rules, and doing nothing even worthy of an infraction or warning?

Evad
10-07-2010, 15:48
You won't. As long as you make clear you are ceasing to use the old account.

-Guido-
10-07-2010, 19:34
Because joining accounts is difficult and time-consuming.

I don't know if you were here a few (5?) years ago when BL had to re-set everyone's passwords? There were problems on the board, so everyone got a new password emailed to them. But lots of people had stopped using the email addresses that were associated with those accounts. So all of a sudden, they had no password to their account. And the general response was 'sorry, but it's your responsibility to keep your account up-to-date. Start a new account'. This happened to a lot of people - even people who were friends with admins IRL. They still had to start a new account, with no posts.

So I can't really see why someone who had been temp-banned would get the benefit of having their accounts combined.

[btw Guido I like you and would argue in your favour, but you have to accept that this isn't /b/, and the rules and standards are different :)]

Well, it has been done in the past for Moderators before (rarely I might add so it must be hell of a job) but if it is so time consuming then change the name. I'm not even talking a Temp-Ban. I'm talking about a ban where you are Perma-Banned but allowed to register a new account and user name.

You following me Modfag guy?

A person gets permanently banned for whatever reason (shitting in Finders garden, prostitution with GM via PM, posting owls, etc...) and they can't log in anymore. That user name is finished. That person registers a new account with a new name. They go on a probation period that's length is dependent on why they were banned and their history. Once that time is up and they behaved, they would get their old account back, however the user name would be changed to the user name of the new account and the new account deleted. No combining, just a simple rename.

Aside from keeping their blog, post, and thread history their infractions and warnings history would be their as well. You could even add something on the warning history about how many bans or temp bans they had.

-Guido-
10-07-2010, 19:35
c'mon, guido, everybody knows that rewarding children for bad behaviour is just poor parenting.

alasdair

It's not a reward what I am proposing and explaining. Read what I just posted above after learning combining accounts is difficult and time consuming. They don't get their old name back. They get a new name but they get to hold on to the posts they made, their join date, and also their warnings and infractions.

-Guido-
10-07-2010, 19:44
[btw Guido I like you and would argue in your favour, but you have to accept that this isn't /b/, and the rules and standards are different :)]

Don't argue in my favor just because you like me, argue in my favor what I suggest happens to not be a pile of dog shit. =D

I never said this was /b/ and what I am talking about has no relation to /b/ in anyway so why even bring it up lol? The Staff mentions 4chan more than I ever did these days lol.

alasdairm
10-07-2010, 20:40
They get a new name but they get to hold on to the posts they made, their join date, and also their warnings and infractions.what kind of discipline is that? none at all...

alasdair

Mariposa
10-07-2010, 23:47
Last I checked, Bluelight exists to help people, not to give an outlet to the butthurt over their personal opinions. We all vent, we all have our dark moments. Yet what does this pointless arguing do to help those in need?

Give up your grudges and participate in the true cause of harm reduction. I know I've been saved from doing things that would have been stupid and dangerous because of Bluelight. While the site neither condones nor condemns, it is up to Bluelighters to make Bluelight a better place.

Alasdair, that last point is an affirmation in the sense that everyone has responsibility for their own actions. Thank you.

Guido, love it or leave it.

-Guido-
11-07-2010, 04:21
what kind of discipline is that? none at all...

alasdair

Your fundamental flaw is your inability to see the shades of gray between that which is white and that which is black. It is discipline. Your screen name is gone. You have to get a new one. But your posts, your threads, and your infractions carry over with you.

-Guido-
11-07-2010, 04:43
Last I checked, Bluelight exists to help people, not to give an outlet to the butthurt over their personal opinions. We all vent, we all have our dark moments. Yet what does this pointless arguing do to help those in need?

Give up your grudges and participate in the true cause of harm reduction. I know I've been saved from doing things that would have been stupid and dangerous because of Bluelight. While the site neither condones nor condemns, it is up to Bluelighters to make Bluelight a better place.


Guido, love it or leave it.

I was going to lace into your post like I lace my fucking Diesel shoes before I hit the dance floor but instead I'm going to speak of what is behind all my talk and be mature for a change. Maybe I couldn't explain it clear before because I was fucking strung out, I don't know.

I will bury the hatchet right now and will shut the fuck up until the day I die about all this disciplinary bullshit and even my Perma-Ban if I am apologized to for when I was temp-banned over "being threatening" and plotting a raid on this site with my 4chan buddies. That's my only beef. I was only defending what little dignity and respect I had left in the community at that time against Rob Cypher's lies and I never once plotted the downfall of this site. You know both of those things were bullshit Mariposa as does the Staff. I took responsibility for when I used a racist term. I took my punishment of temp-ban. I never registered an alter during that time period, nor did anything to hinder the sites performance or function nor had anyone post on behalf. But when I came back and was temp-banned by you before being Perma-Banned by an Administrator over an alleged 4chan raid and being threatening to some liar in The Lounge. That is the one thing I refuse to take responsibility for because I did neither. That is my one and only problem and is the only reason I remain bitter and haunt these forums.

Mariposa
12-07-2010, 11:17
I was going to lace into your post like I lace my fucking Diesel shoes before I hit the dance floor but instead I'm going to speak of what is behind all my talk and be mature for a change. Maybe I couldn't explain it clear before because I was fucking strung out, I don't know.

I will bury the hatchet right now and will shut the fuck up until the day I die about all this disciplinary bullshit and even my Perma-Ban if I am apologized to for when I was temp-banned over "being threatening" and plotting a raid on this site with my 4chan buddies. That's my only beef. I was only defending what little dignity and respect I had left in the community at that time against Rob Cypher's lies and I never once plotted the downfall of this site. You know both of those things were bullshit Mariposa as does the Staff. I took responsibility for when I used a racist term. I took my punishment of temp-ban. I never registered an alter during that time period, nor did anything to hinder the sites performance or function nor had anyone post on behalf. But when I came back and was temp-banned by you before being Perma-Banned by an Administrator over an alleged 4chan raid and being threatening to some liar in The Lounge. That is the one thing I refuse to take responsibility for because I did neither. That is my one and only problem and is the only reason I remain bitter and haunt these forums.

I am BL Crew and have been for about 12 months now. Take your grudges elsewhere and stop trashing people who wish to create and maintain a healthy community.

*yawn*

EoTorv
12-07-2010, 14:00
Do you honestly believe that the point is about trashing people who wish to create and maintain a healthy community? Might it actually be a plea for someone to admit that some discipline at one point was over reactive because some people in authority believed some hyped-up confabulations? Yawn as you like, I know you know your answer to be inauthentic and a diversion.

-Guido-
12-07-2010, 17:02
I am BL Crew and have been for about 12 months now. Take your grudges elsewhere and stop trashing people who wish to create and maintain a healthy community.

*yawn*

Earlier in the thread I was simply stating something I thought would be a good change to the disciplinary system. I'm not trashing anyone. Never had and never will. I maintained a healthy community in Drug Culture while I was a Moderator and an even healthy one as regular member in The Lounge. Laughter is the best medicine, you would be surprised the e-mails and instant messages I have gotten from people in that forum thanking me for brightening up their day and making them forget their troubles for one brief moment without the need for drugs.

You trashed me with your false accusations and you refuse to admit it and apologize for it.

-Guido-
12-07-2010, 17:33
Might it actually be a plea for someone to admit that some discipline at one point was over reactive because some people in authority believed some hyped-up confabulations? Yawn as you like, I know you know your answer to be inauthentic and a diversion.

Indeed. I was Temp-Banned for using a racial slur that wasn't tolerated. Even though it was in jest and without any ill-intent I took my punishment. I obeyed the terms by not registering any alternate accounts, by not disrupting the site through trolling and other means, and by not having people post on my behalf. When my term was up I came back and refrained from using that racial slur. Everything was great

I stumbled across a thread within The Lounge and there was a new member posting slander and lies about my character so I told him to shut the fuck up and we started flaming each other like people normally do in that forum. I was trying to defend my character and my love for Bluelight. Maripossa then Temp-Banned me for being threatening and for plotting a raid on Blueight via 4chan. Lies and more lies blown out of proportion. Shortly after I was Permanently-Banned after they reviewed my behavior. I refuse to take responsibility for that Temp-Ban that was based on lies and heresy.

That is my only beef. My only problem.

TheLoveBandit
12-07-2010, 18:22
Guys.....can we keep focus on the point of the thread, please?

The reason this was even published was that times change, bad behaviour evolves as does ways of tackling it....hence 'Changes to the disciplinary system'. We could have an endless discussion on the history of how we got to this point, and the injustices done under different administration regimes. The point of this thread is that we've tried to take a step toward more fair system, and while it admittedly isn't perfect, it is hopefully better than what we had - more transparent, more consistent, more understandable. Chances are we'll continue to tweak it as we move forward.

That said, there is not the intent to undo past injustices anymore than there is any effort to be spent going back and hammering people further for past transgressions. The point is to be moving forward - look back and learn as appropriate, but keep going forward.

Binge Artist
12-07-2010, 18:49
Oh and solution for you guys to get rid of your infractions and its free.........start a new account and stop using the old one.


You won't. As long as you make clear you are ceasing to use the old account.


So, what y'all are saying is that, if I make it clear that I ain't gonna post as "Binge Artist" no more, I could come back as "BingeArtist" or "Binge Artist vs. 2.0" or "Le Artiste de Binge", and I'll have a perfectly clean record?

If so, then the current discipline system don't really make no sense. I mean, since it would be so easy to keep your identity (with a similar enough name), what would keep someone from just "starting over" after each infraction?

I mean, it wasn't never no mystery who -Guido- was, if y'all feel what I'm saying.

fizzle
12-07-2010, 19:06
Nothing is keeping people from doing that, most people choose not to start a new account every time because they'd rather keep their post count and join date, and most people realize that a couple of infractions isnt really going to hurt their reputation if they learn from them. Just like we've been telling you for the last 3 pages of this thread....

However, staff does keep a record of whos who, so if you started a new account and starting trolling with that one, you'd be given a lot less lenience than you would if you were actually a brand new member.

Binge Artist
12-07-2010, 19:15
if they learn from them


...Sister, I don't know who you think you're taking to, but I'm Binge Artist (at least for now).


So, how do I go about "making it clear that I'm ceasing to use the old account"?


But yeah, this is DEFINITELY better than my lame idea of paying money to erase my infractions...

Evad
12-07-2010, 22:26
.So, how do I go about "making it clear that I'm ceasing to use the old account"?

Just create a new account and stop using the current one, your current infractions will likely still stand against it though.

I have removed a few posts from this thread and will continue to do so for any more off topic posts.

Binge Artist
12-07-2010, 23:04
Just create a new account and stop using the current one, your current infractions will likely still stand against it though.

I have removed a few posts from this thread and will continue to do so for any more off topic posts.



So, you're saying MazDan was incorrect about the fresh start?

scrooloose
12-07-2010, 23:44
Hello

If i made up a new e-mail addy AND username,would this be accepted straight away like if a new person was registering?

This forum is sometimes so helpful and informative that sometimes i feel the need to post but i would like to choose a new username and e-mail addy.

What i'm saying is would this be accepted without any problems?

-Guido-
12-07-2010, 23:45
Hello

If i made up a new e-mail addy AND username,would this be accepted straight away like if a new person was registering?

This forum is sometimes so helpful and informative that sometimes i feel the need to post but i would like to choose a new username and e-mail addy.

What i'm saying is would this be accepted without any problems?

Yeah, as long as you cease using the previous account there is no problem.

scrooloose
12-07-2010, 23:53
Yeah, as long as you cease using the previous account there is no problem.

That's good,and yes i would definitely cease to use the previous account as and when i get round to sorting myself out.

Mariposa
14-07-2010, 00:10
Guys.....can we keep focus on the point of the thread, please?

The reason this was even published was that times change, bad behaviour evolves as does ways of tackling it....hence 'Changes to the disciplinary system'. We could have an endless discussion on the history of how we got to this point, and the injustices done under different administration regimes. The point of this thread is that we've tried to take a step toward more fair system, and while it admittedly isn't perfect, it is hopefully better than what we had - more transparent, more consistent, more understandable. Chances are we'll continue to tweak it as we move forward.

That said, there is not the intent to undo past injustices anymore than there is any effort to be spent going back and hammering people further for past transgressions. The point is to be moving forward - look back and learn as appropriate, but keep going forward.

Fucking oath. It doesn't matter our titles, it matters that we've got a common goal - that of helping and educating.

Through this, we can all understand one another more effectively and carry that message to others.